Switzerland plus Austria/Germany/Northern Italy?
 

My husband and I are in our sixties and are planning a European trip from around mid September to 21 October at the latest this year. I’m thinking we will possibly fly into Zurich but haven’t yet booked airfares.

We originally wanted to see Greece, but as I also wanted to return to Switzerland we’ve now been thinking of Switzerland plus a neighboring country, leaving Greece for another time. We’ll be using public transport.

I think I can work out an itinerary for about two weeks in Switzerland seeing places we missed last time, but am unsure about the next two or three weeks. I love beautiful Alpine scenery and also small old towns. My husband always likes the chance to see Roman ruins as well. I have problems with my feet so can’t do a lot of walking but with the help of taxis and local minivan tours we manage to see quite a bit when travelling.

I don’t know whether we should see some of Austria and a bit of Germany or possibly even some of northern Italy. There are so many places we haven’t been yet that it’s hard to choose. What do people who have been to all these places think? As far as beautiful scenery and old towns go, does Austria, Germany or Northern Italy win?

Well Oktoberfest is going strong so Munich may be cool. Anyway, for lots on public transports check www.bahn.de/en for schedules and www.ricksteves.com; www.bugeteuropetravel.com (especially online European Planning & Rail Guide for rail itineraries in all those places and www.seat61.com - sage advice in booking discounted tickets on trains online yourselves.

Check out the Wachau Valley stretch of Danube for cute small wine towns and lovely natural beauty: https://www.google.com/search?q=wachau+Valley+images&tbm=isch&tbo=u&sourc e=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG59nM2fnZAhUC5YMKHQoGBBEQs AQIKA&biw=1503&bih=738.

Hi jacooper,

Just a comment on Pal's recommendation of Munich and Oktoberfest. Yes, it would be cool, but it will also be difficult and expensive. Hotels regularly raise their rates to an unbelievable rate, and even so, they sell out pretty quickly. I doubt you could now find a hotel in the inner city.

You could stay outside of the inner city, or even in the nearby Freising (which I did last year when my nephew unexpectedly wanted to see the Oktoberfest). The train/tram into the city would take about 15 or 20 minutes, depending on exactly where you were. I really loved the sweet little town of Freising and was totally happy with our stay there, but I didn't have to go into the city for the Fest.

https://www.bavaria.by/visit/freising/

Alternately, you could stay in a nearby city like Augsburg, which I think is more charming than Munich anyway. It escaped most of the bombing of WWII and has a section of town laced with small canals. It would be about 30 minutes on the train to and from Munich, but beware -- I found the trains to be really crowded during the O'fest.

Or you could just come to Munich after the Fest, which closes on 7 Oct this year.

Have fun as you plan!

s

Thanks to both of you for your information about Munich, but my question wasn’t about Munich. It was whether to visit Austria, Germany or northern Italy after Switzerland. I’m just looking for opinions about the merits of these places in terms of beautiful scenery and nice old towns from people who have seen them all. I know that Switzerland is beautiful, which is why I want to return there, but now need to decide on the second country to visit.

At the moment I’m leaning towards Austria and the Dachau Valley sounds like an area I’d like. Parts of Germany also sound lovely so maybe we could see a bit of both countries.

Hmmm. Not sure I understand your comment, jacooper. You are considering parts of Germany... Munich is in Germany...so it would be under consideration....?

And my comments weren't actually a recommendation so much as a caution if you followed Pal's recommendation.

s

"As far as beautiful scenery and old towns go, does Austria, Germany or Northern Italy win?"

We win. ;)

OK, to reword my question: if you had two weeks to spend in either Austria, Germany or Northern Italy, which would you choose and why, considering that beautiful scenery and nice old towns are the criteria?

Dachau 'Valley' is near Munich!

All three countries could fulfill that.

I haven't done much in Northern Italy, so can't say, but I can recommend the lakes area in Austria roughly around Salzburg...Hallstatt, Wolfgangsee, Attersee, etc. If you can rent a car it would be easier to tour that area. Additionally, the area below Munich around Garmisch-Partenkirchen and Berchtesgaden plus other smaller towns there are lovely.

I, personally, would avoid Munich at Oktoberfest but that may just be me.

Hi again,

Hoping these recommendations might be closer to helpful than my first reply --

Two weeks in Bavaria could be nice, as Trophywife007 notes -- Garmisch and Berchtesgaden, plus Mittenwald, Oberammergau, Ettal, Füssen, etc. Those are very pretty towns and villages, with stucco'd buildings and fresco'd walls; the scenery here is a nice mix of green rolling hills, the occasional Alpine lake, and of course the beginning of the Alps. Mittenwald is a favorite of lots of folks because it's small and pretty and very close to the mountains. Berchtesgaden is also a big favorite. I live in Garmisch, so I'm probably partial to this area.

You may also want to consider the medieval city of Freiburg (am Breisgau). Though it's a city (population 222,000), it is very attractive and charming with a whole lot of history. I spent a few days there and followed the tourist office's self-guided walk, and I learned a lot and totally enjoyed the time. I wished I'd had more time there. Frieburg is also nicely situated for public transport out to Black Forest villages and towns, with loads to choose from -- Waldkirch for example. The landscape here is mostly green rolling hills, if that appeals. You could also combine time in Frieburg with some time in Alsace on the other side of the Rhine -- Ribeaville, Riquewihr, Eguisheim, and Colmar. I'm not sure where you'll be ending the Swiss portion of your trip, but Freiburg is about 2h from Zürich.

Another option would be to explore the towns and villages of Lake Constance (or the Bodensee). You could stay in the beautiful medieval town of Lindau (I loved it there) and enjoy the sweeping views across the lake, and visit Bregenze, Meersburg, Konstanz, etc. Lindau is about 2h25 from Zürich.

I also agree that the Salzkammergut would be wonderful. I spent some time in St. Gilgen several years ago, and I'm planning to spend time at St Wolfgang this July. You can visit these beautiful towns on the lake (the lake is beautiful and backed by gorgeous mountains) as well as visiting Salzburg and Berchtesgaden, all nearby. Zürich to Salzburg is about 6h or 7h by train.

Hope you find a place that calls to you, and have fun as you plan!

s

Yes the Garmisch area would be very neat - day trip easy into Octoberfest as I did once from there - lots of neat day trips by car - then head for Innsbruck and drive thru inland Alpine valley route to Salzburg - do the Lakes District and Hallstatt and work way to Vienna hitting Wachau Valley en route - that would fulfill you wish list.

Thanks very much, everyone. That’s much more what I was hoping to hear. I have a lot to research to do to make my decision now. Octoberfest isn’t something I have any interest in so will be avoiding Munich.

Sorry, I meant WACHAU Valley in earlier comment, not Dachau Valley.

Also, we definitely will not be hiring a car so all our travel needs to be possible by train/ bus/taxi.

Trains amd transits are much better in Germany and Ausrtria than Northern Italy where a car would be best.

agree for Northern Italy car would be the best.

Hi again,

No, a car is definitely not needed for the Garmisch area -- I lived here for 9 1/2 years without a car. It's easy as pie to get around to all the places I mentioned in my post by train or bus. It would be best if you could find a hotel or apartment in Garmisch that isn't far from the pedestrian zone and also not far from the train station. Your hosts will give you a visitors' card that will make the town busses free. You can use the German rail site to get the schedules for excursions:

www.bahn.com

just make sure that the name of your departure & destination are spelled right (there are lots of towns and villages with similar names, so you could get a bad result). If you can't do the umlaut (Füssen), then add an "e" after the vowel (Fuessen).

When I visited St Gilgen, I didn't have a car, and I got around just fine on the busses to visit nearby towns, etc. The best day, however, was when I rented a bicycle and cycled along the lake -- really a great way to sightsee all that beauty.

I also visited Lake Garda without a car, and I found it more problematic. The busses were usually 10 minutes or more late, and they ran only about once every other hour. One town I wanted to visit would have meant a change of busses... and with the busses running late, I was afraid the arriving bus would be late and I'd miss the connecting bus and be stuck in the middle of nowhere for a few hours. It was possible to tour around with the lake ferries.... but it was expensive (about 70€ for a round-trip on the fast boat to where I wanted to go) or time-consuming (about 4h each direction for the inexpensive boat).

Have fun!

s

Thanks again for all this info. We will definitely stick with Austria and Germany then as neither of us wants to drive (wrong side of the road for us). As I said earlier we can probably stretch our time to three weeks, so maybe 10 days in Austria and 10 in Germany.

In Austria, there are two competing train systems - Austrian State Railwas=- ÖBB - Startseite I believe and Willkommen - onwed I believe by Austrian Railways but one offering consistently cheap ticket even if not pre-ordering weeks ahead of time, giving you flexibility.

In Bavaria - where you will be taking trains check out the dirt cheap Bavarian Pass good for a day's unlimited train or bus travel but restricted to regional trains - good on city transports too. Buy it day of travel at stations.

We've often combined Switzerland and Germany.

I too would recommend Freiburg (am Breisgau) - shortish train journey from Zurich. From Freiburg you can easily reach Colmar, France by train and bus, Basel, Switzerland, Staufen, Germany (a small town located at the edge of the Black Forest, surrounded by vineyards and overlooked by the imposing Bergruine) and a bit further afield, Strasbourg, France.

I have a few trip reports posted here regarding our Swiss/German trips should you be interested.

Thanks. We’ve been to the Alsace region so I’d like to concentrate on Germany and Austria this time. I guess some people would say to choose one or the other, but it’s always tempting to see another country that you have never been to.

So maybe a small part of Germany and a small part of Austria? Or is it better to just see one in more depth?

I'm sure you realize that none of us can answer that question for you. Different people make different choices for different reasons.

It's more about what you want to see and your personal travel style and interests, than which is 'better'. With two weeks, perhaps do a week in both. Two weeks in Germany has proven a bit longish for me, whereas I could spend many, many, many weeks in Switzerland.

You don't say where in Switzerland you plan to visit this time. I've spent very little time in Italy, but if you're in the Engadine getting to both Austria and Italy are a breeze.

The rough plan for Switzerland is to spend six or seven nights in the Bernese Oberland, possibly in Wengen. Last time we stayed three nights in Interlaken in the hope of being able to go up the Jungfrau but it didn’t fine up until the day we left, so I hope by staying longer we get a chance to go up into the mountains in good weather.

The other two places I’d like to stop for about three nights each are Zermatt and Bern. Last time we took the Bernina Express from Tirano to Chur, then the next day the Glacier Express and local trains to Interlaken, and finally the Golden Pass to Montreux. We also did a day trip to Lucerne and a boat ride on Lake Brienz. We were only in Switzerland for six nights last time as part of a long European trip.

Bern for 3 days? Curious as to why - nice city great for a day but I'd base in Lucerne and daytrip to Bern and spend more time in Lucerne and environs.

There is nothing wrong with Berne as a base for day trips to Western Switzerland, like
medieval city of Fribourg
medieval walled city of Murten
small medieval city of La Neuveville
medieval city center of Solothurn
Lake dwelling museums at Biel/Bienne and Neuchatel
Swiss time measurement and watch making museum at La Chaux de Fonds
boat rides on Lakes Biel/Bienne, Neuchatel and Murten, plus Aar river (Murten - Neuchatel - Biel/Bienne - Solothurn needs a whole day, so does Murten - Neuchatel - Yverdon)
Roman amphitheatre and museum at Avenches
medieval city of Gruyeres and chocolate factory at Broc nearby
menhirs, castle and medieval city center at Yverdon
menhirs, castle and car museum at Grandson
medieval city of Orbe and Roman villa with mosaics nearby
Jura Gorges of Taubenloch, Combe Crede, Twannbach, Seyon, Areuse and Orbe
Roman villa with mosaics at Vallon, close to the Lake Dweller's village at Gletterens
museums of Berne: Paul Klee Museum, Art Museum, Albert Einstein Museum, Historical Museum, Museum of Natural History (with big cristals from the Swiss Alps), Alpine Museum, Museum of Communication, Museum of Wildlife and Hunting in Landshut Castle, Museum of Bernese Home Decor in the 17th - 18th Centuries in Jegenstorf Castle, Antique and Medieval textiles museum at Riggisberg, etc. etc.

Wow, Neckervd, that is a gold mine of a post. Bookmarking!

If doing day trips like that get a Swiss Travel Pass for sure - if traveling around most days and even first class as those are largely intercity trains that can like someone else said above get very crowded at rush hours.

I visited many of the things neckervd mentions, but not from Bern -- and I found more than enough to keep me very happily busy in Bern itself for 2 full days. Fodorites are fortunate to have neckervd -- or people could consult a good guidebook or two. The better ones DO cover these things!

Maybe we should spend longer in Bern then, with all those places to see. What about Zermatt? Does three nights there sound about right?

I think we’ll definitely be getting a travel card - last time we got the half fare card.

I'm sorry -- I really don't know how any of us can tell you how much time to spend where. It really depends on what YOU want to see and experience, and ONLY you can decide that. IMO, you will make better decisions if you consult some guidebooks rather than just listening to a few people who, no matter their knowledge and experience, can't possibly put themselves in your particular shoes.

Good luck!

Hi again,

Well (here I am in my curmudgeon role), I didn't care for Zermatt much. I visited two times, once for a week for skiing and another time as a day-trip from my base in Brig, just to see if I had been mistaken in my first, negative impression. I wasn't.

It's a great base if one is sporty and enjoys skiing and hiking. otherwise... there's not much to do after the first day. It will take you a day to see the town and the museum, and that's it. Zermatt sits at the end of a long valley, and it just takes a lot of time to get in or out, so it's not a great base for exploring a region. You are pretty much stuck right there.

And I didn't care for the town itself. There's really no more land left to build on (that restrictive valley...), but someone seems to put up a new chalet on every square inch of ground, leaving a higgely-piggely, chaotic effect. And with all those buildings comes people. It was super, super crowded. In my mind, a remote, car-free Swiss Alpine village ought to be at least somewhat serene, but that wasn't true for Zermatt, at least in my view. I was simply overwhelmed by the over-crowding and over-building, and I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

You wrote that your interests are scenery and old towns. Zermatt has the scenery, but I'm not sure how long you'll be happy just sitting on a balcony and staring out at it. It doesn't, in my opinion, have a pretty old town that invites exploring.

If you want to see the Matterhorn, though, you have a problem. You have to stay there sufficient nights for a good chance to get good weather, but you just may get bored sitting around and waiting.

If it were me, and I just felt that I had to see it, I would only stay 2 nights and hope for good weather at that time.

Have fun as you plan!

s

Thanks Swandav, that gives me a lot of information that I need. I was just hoping to see the Matterhorn but am not at all sporty with my bad feet. I think we might give Zermatt a miss then.

KJA, I have a guidebook and as mentioned earlier, this will be our second visit to Switzerland. I find the opinions of people who have been to a place a valid source of information, especially when they give reasons for their views and I’ve already said the kinds of things we like.

As we only did a day trip to Lucerne and didn’t go on any boat rides or mountain trips, that might be a good third base. Or else somewhere near Lake Constanz.

Good to know that you have a guidebook. Enjoy your trip!

I'll take Berner Oberland over Zermatt if one had to chose anyday- more and varied things to do that just one mountain - oh hikes in Zermatt area are great if hiking is goal but BO has many more hiking possibilities including many easy ones. Plus if wet easy to day trip to Bern or Thun or other nice cities - Zermatt is 90 minutes from any town of size so if wet you're stuck.

I know many do not like Zermatt, but I love it. Last September I and hubby visited it for the fourth time. We usually stay 2-3 nights and find plenty to do. You can take the train up to Gornergrat for beautiful views of the Matterhorn and the Gornergletscher (glacier). We sat on the terrace and had a glass of wine. Another day you can explore the town. We like the Museum and the cemetery. Another excursion is to Klein Matterhorn via the cable cars. Such gorgeous scenery! We have always gone in late September and early October. We have always seen the Matterhorn. Yes, sometimes the clouds come in, but they disappear as fast as they come in. We have also come to know the Julen family that owns several hotels in Zermatt. The Romantic Julen is well known, but we stay in the Hotel Daniela (owned by Daniela Julen and managed by her daughter Rebecca) in a Matterhorn view room. Staying at the Hotel Daniela gives you privileges at the Julen Hotel Pool (indoor). Many times we will chill out at the pool in the later part of the afternoon. If you like lamb, the Julen's raise their own lamb and use it in their restaurants. Fantastic flavor.

I would not count Zermatt out. And yes, we stayed 5 days in the OB. Love it there also.

Thanks, we have a lot of decisions to make regarding our itinerary. Can anyone recommend a guidebook they found useful? I have the Rick Steves but he doesn’t cover all possible destinations.

What do you want out of a guidebook - for sightseeing and maps the Michelin Green Guide to Switzerland is great.

IME, the Michelin Green and Rough Guide provide the most comprehensive coverage, but I don't think any do the Engadine justice.