Speaking Italian
 

My husband and I are going to Paris and Rome next year and we are starting to learn the language. We will be spending most of the time in Italy so we started to learn Italian. Then wondered how we are going to speak it while in Paris because they speak French. What language are we better off speaking in Paris? I don't think I could learn two different languages in a year. Should we just learn the basics for Paris and still focus on Italian?

>>What language are we better off speaking in Paris? <<

English

Just learn basic French greetings/food/menu items/numbers/pleasantries.

Most people I encountered in Paris spoke English...even the person selling newspapers in the corner stand...

You can speak English in both Paris and cities of Italy. They are used to tourists. It's nice to learn pleasantries and some basics, but no way will you be fluent in Italian in one year's time, even with intensive study.

I would learn whichever language you think would come in handier for future trips.

Will you most often be going to Spanish-speaking, Italian-speaking, or French-speaking countries?

Agree with suze about learning Italian. I hate to be discouraging, and honestly I think its great that you're trying, but unless you already speak another related language such as Spanish or are doing a full-time immersion program then it's unlikely that you are going to be fluent in any real sense in Italian. It's still WORTH the year of study so that you can at least express things to other people, understand some of the stuff you see written, etc. It's a rewarding journey it it's own right, no matter how far you get.

I would recommend for Paris learning at least some basics, as others have said. I don't speak French but I can do basic transactions in stores, restaurants, etc. entirely in French. It doesn't take that many words, really. And also, very important, spend a little time looking into cultural expectations. You'd be a bit upset, I imagine, if you worked at a store here in the US and a foreigner came in and said "Hey, babe, can you get me..." This is an example of something that is just rude. Similarly, in France, the very first thing you say to *anyone* is "bonjour monsieur/madame". In fact when you walk into a shop or by the desk at your hotel you are expected to say that, even if you plan no further conversation. There are a few other etiquette items for Italy and France I'm sure you can find.

IMHO you can manage in English in any country in western europe.

However, I would not focus on trying to be fluent in anything.

In whatever country you are going to you will want to be able to speak/understand

Basic greetings and polite phrases
Typical tourist questions - where is, how much, how to find toilets or specific other places
Numbers
Days of the week
Directions
Enough food info to read a menu (although I would still take a good menu reader that describes the prep of the dish - not just "chicken" or whatever)
And whatever else you can pick up

Just so you know Italian is easier in the sense that what you see looks a lot like what you say, where French is more difficult (what you say i often very different than what it looks like)

If I were you I would each pick one language and be responsible for that country. Focus on conversation and learning lots of basic words - not grammar or conjugating verbs (which will slow down picking up things).

Also be sure whatever system you use has some resource that makes you listen to the language to pick up the intonations and rhythm.

Finally I have found that being in a country - and the need to be able to speak/understand results in desperation that brings back to you everything you have learned - even the French and Spanish I learned in college almost 40 years ago. (And I can still understand a lot more than I can speak)

In Paris, it is hard to speak French because the people you deal with speak excellent English and they would rather want to get business done with you to attend to the next customer. The exception are taxi and bus drivers, but the transaction usually involves confirming your destination only.

However, as mentioned above, what is not an option are the greetings. You MUST greet the person before you start speaking. You MUST also greet when you enter a small store even if no one seems to be looking at you. They remember the cold reception you initialed and respond to you in the same way.

So much good Info! Thank you! I have no expectations of being able to be amazingly fluent lol. I just want to feel somewhat comfortable and be able to tell someone what I want or answer a simple question. Also being able to read things is important to me. I know that just as I speak English that I do not enunciate as much so I can only imagine trying to understand someone who's native language is Italian. Language is so fascinating to me. I would love to fully immerse myself in it so that I could fully learn. I have no interest in conjugating verbs. Man, that was hard. I took Spanish in high school and I could speak it well but not when it came to that part! Haha. I have downloaded an app that is introducing me to basic things which will be helpful to interact the basics with someone. And I have some podcasts that are Italian teaching so I can hear the words. My husband makes fun of me because he thinks that I will accidentally insult someone. I did know about having to say hello and ive definetly been looking up everything I can find on courtesies. I don't want to come across as rude. The culture I'm reading about is just amazing. I can't believe that we are finally going to go!

Any effort to educate oneself is commendable. Wanting to learn a new language can make life more interesting and open the door to a richer and a more meaningful travel experience.

To me, you seemed to be on the right track; then I read this:

<i>I have no interest in conjugating verbs.</i>

Really?

Your plan to <i>feel comfortable</i> and to <i>be able to tell someone what I want</i> is either wildly unrealistic or you must have the best leaning scheme since Professor Harold Hill invented the <i>think system</i>.

I wish you the best of luck.

If there is something motivating you to explore another language, whatever it is, seize the day and keep on practicing. Whenever you learn a new language you'll find people laughing at you, or telling you "what's the point? Everybody speaks English now", but just ignore that. The more you know of another language, the further you can go in your travels.

Were it me, I would focus on French pronunciation. In Italian, it is generaly much easier to know how to prounounce what you see, and Italians are very forgiving of a mispronunciation. It helps if you enunciate strongly in Italian, because that is the norm, and Italians will often very cheerfully be your teacher, helping you learn if you make a mistake, nicely correcting your pronunciation. In French, knowing the right pronunciation is trickier (there a lots of silent letters and particular sounds) and Paris tends to move at a quicker pace than Rome, with much more formality in public transactions, so it is nice if you can arrive in Paris having mastered not only the courtesies but a few likely questions/requests (how much does something cost, a request for the bill or a menu, or a subway ticket, how to find the toilet, the bus stop, the taxi queue, etc). These things are good to know in Italian, too, but you'll be surprised at how receptive Italians are to sign language or will go out of their way to communicate across a language divide.

For both cities, having a menu translator is a great asset and helps avoid expensive mistakes.

Sarastro,

I think the OP was making a confession about something they'd discovered about themselves while learning Spanish, not dismissing the importance of conjugating verbs. It's pretty common that everybody loves the idea of learning a new language, and delights in picking up new words and expressions, but when it comes to drills about conjugating verbs, it's more headaches than fun.

English is my first language, I don't get your closing sarcasms and snottiness (and I doubt a young person is going to get your oldster cultural references). I see no reason why the OP cant look forward to feeling comfortable walking into a store and asking the cost of things, or being in a restaurant and asking for another bottle of water. I have seen and overheard tourists in restaurants having anxious conversations with each other about how to ask for the simplest things, and negotiating with each other about who is going to do the talking, or watched them walk around in confusion, carrying tons of luggage, because they didn't know how to ask for directions to their hotel's street.

Again, it is really a pity that when young people come onto Fodor's asking questions and demonstrating an interest in learning -- anything! -- the responses are mainly discouragement and low ambition.

Wanting to learn another language is always commendable. Spend as much time as you can learning any language. Italian is an easy language. French is harder. Knowing how to conjugate verbs is essential, however, to learning any language. Languages open doors in your travels that are shut to people who don't bother to learn them

Italian will do you absolutely no good in Paris. In Italy, speaking Italian will win you major points and get you places you'd never otherwise get to. Same thing in France. Of course you can "get by" in either country speaking only English, but you can't imagine the difference between being an English-speaking-only traveler and one who speaks the language.

But you do need to understand that it takes years and years of serious study - and not of the "I don't want to know how to conjugate verbs" type - to make any real headway with a foreign language. Conjugating verbs is utterly essential. And then you need to learn the jargon, which is another lifetime of learning.

Ashley - I'm going to suggest that you concentrate on just one language, and as Italy is your first stop, and OME fewer italians speak english than do people in Paris, I'm going to propose that you learn italian. And so far as pronunciation is concerned, it's definitely easier.

I'm also going to suggest that you get hold of the Michel Thomas Italian course [CDs available from your library, or amazon.e-Bay] and do a little every day. The beauty of the Michel Thomas approach is that he teaches you the grammar as you go, so that everything you learn makes sense, and builds to the next stage, and so on. That way you don't only learn how to ask a question, but have a fighting chance of understanding the answer. [a common flaw of phrase books and other language is that the don't equip you to do that, which isn't much use].

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Start-Italia...+michel+thomas

Good luck!

Italians speak much less english than french, for sure.
Spaniards are the worst non english speaking in Europe, I'd say, Italy is second.

French and Italian are close. But you cannot be understood speaking one language in the other country.

I speak French (effortlessly, it is my mothertongue) I don't speak italian. Sometimes I understand what they say, but I am not confortable at all. However I will not starve nor get lost. But it is another language.

Bonne chance avec votre Français et MERCI de faire l'effort de le parler !

I'd work on your Italian
I'd get hold of the Michel Thomas CDs which are great
I'd log onto Duolingo and have a hack
I'd be disciplined and to one hour a day every day. It is repetition that gets a language from short term memory into medium term memory
Find an Italian, on skype via italki or in your local restaurant and discover that you cannot over express in italian and once you understand the rules the spelling is perfect (there is no such thing as a spelling B competition in italy, it would be impossible).
Go on you tube and listen to an Italian movie with italian subtitles turned on. Not all subtitles are perfect but the Librarian US series is on youtube and the subtitles are right 80% of the time. It gets you an understanding for the sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcge...LhpKuC_jd_xEFw

As others have noted, your intentions are commendable. As others have noted, you should realize this is more an exercise in broadening your horizons than in practical application.

The problem you're going to encounter with trying to converse in "simple" Italian comes when someone responds in a a not-so-simple manner. Then you're going to revert to English.

Learn Italian. Familiarize yourself with common expressions and signs. But realize it will have extremely limited application.

Have a nice trip.

I always think learning another language is a wonderful thing - and deprecate that in many school in the US languages are not taught until high school - long after the prime time for a child to learn a new language. Out DDs started to learn french in 4th grade and as a result are both able to communicate fairly well (although not truly fluent as is someone who has take an immersion course for 6 months or so).

But when they went to paris the first time at 11 and 14 they were so proud that they could communicate about basic things, order from the menu etc.

I did not mean to discourage the OP for going for full on fluency - but based on their comment on conjugations what they are really looking for is basic tourist understanding.

My problem is that I have been to almost every country in euope and there is simply no way of learning all of these languages. I did study spanish and french umpteen years ago and can make my self understood for daily purposes - and can understand a lot more if I'm reading or listening to a tour guide in the native language. And knowing those allowed me to fumble along in Italian and Portuguese. And for any native english speaker it's possible to intuit a lot in germanic languages (my education in german was a tiny bit my father remembered from his grandparents which was not high german) but I can bumble along.

Where I am lost is in slavic languages - of which I have no knowledge - so I have just concentrated on the most basic tourist phrases (that's what I meant by don't worry about conjugating verbs). And don;t even ask about Hungarian.

It's great that the OP is trying to learn - but I still think each one trying to master the most basic phrases in a different language (and understandable pronunciation - esp in French) is really going to give them the most bang for their input of time.

<i><font color=#555555>"My husband and I are going to Paris and Rome next year and we are starting to learn the language."</font></i>

Well, considering that Romans and Parisians don't speak the same language, I already envision a challenge with English.

<i><font color=#555555>"What language are we better off speaking in Paris?"</font></i>

French, and it better be more than just a decent effort. Parisian salespeople are notoriously brutal towards tourists who murder their language. They exhibit no appreciation for a mediocre effort, and they'll often insist that you speak English just to get you to stop causing them ear pain.

If you are the slightest bit insecure about your skills, stick to English. The French who don't speak English will not hesitate to tell you that they don't.

<i><font color=#555555>"I just want to feel somewhat comfortable and be able to tell someone what I want or answer a simple question."</font></i>

It can take years of study to learn how to formulate sentences. In order to answer simple questions, you must be able to hear all the words in the question and understand their meaning. To do this as an adult, it takes a lot of practice, for more time than most people realize or are willing to commit.

<i><font color=#555555>"Language is so fascinating to me. I would love to fully immerse myself in it so that I could fully learn. I have no interest in conjugating verbs."</font></i>

Oh well. Good luck.

Stressing things others have already said:

-- Italian is much easier to pronounce...and if you had any
Spanish in HS, the lanuages are similar.

--Learn the travel basics.

--Be super polite/formal in Paris.

--Try, try, try, because the local people will respect that.

One other thing about tenses/conjugations. No need to learn future or past tenses. Try these shortcust that are not perfect, but work:

Future: "I am going to eat" Just learn to conjugate <strong>to go</strong> andare (It) and aller (Fr) and use with the infinitive. Andiamo mangare (We are going to eat).

Past: "I have eaten" This is a little more complicated, because in both languages, some verbs use "To Have" and others use "To be"

We have eaten: Conjugate to have (avere) with past participle. Abbiamo mangiato

We have arrived: Conjegate to be (essere) with past participle. Siamo arrivati (actually we are arrived)

Never-the-less, this reduces your conjugation needs to three verbs in each language, as well as knowing a handful of useful past participles.

FLAME-GUARD: Please, please, please do not flame me over my errors here. This system has worked for me, despite obvious gender/number mistakes that are probably in the above.

This is just an example of short-cuts that, for the most, part will be understood by locals...and the errors will be forgiven. Obviously the real subtleties of tense are lost, and this won't get you through a complicated discussion, but you will be generally understood in stores, restaurants, transport, etc.

ssander

To clarify...

I am not fluent in either language and never had any French in school (had Italian in college 50 years ago and Spanish in HS even earlier)...but I have survived in Paris, Italy and Spain speaking practically no English and trying my best using the above short-cuts.

ssander

'Parisian salespeople are notoriously brutal towards tourists who murder their language. They exhibit no appreciation for a mediocre effort, and they'll often insist that you speak English just to get you to stop causing them ear pain.'

Utter bullshit.

I don't understand why all your posts are so negative - I can only imagine that you are a negative person yourself and that you would be be brutally handling somebody trying to speak some english to you.

Most people will definitely appreciate somebody's efforts to communicate in another language.

It can take years of study to learn how to formulate sentences. In order to answer simple questions, you must be able to hear all the words in the question and understand their meaning. To do this as an adult, it takes a lot of practice, for more time than most people realize or are willing to commit.>>

NYfoodsnob - I disagree profoundly with your discouraging words to the OP.

I am living proof that you can learn a language as an adult and I think you'd find quite a few others here too who have done the same.

of course it takes time, effort and commitment, but if the OP follows the advice s/he's had here there is every chance that by the time s/he goes to Italy, s/he will be able to ask and answer simple questions, understand signs, directions, menus etc.

ssander - I think that your system looks great and fulfils one of Michel Thomas's edicts in foreign language learning - "to get the ball over the net"!

<i><font color=#555555>"I don't understand why all your posts are so negative"</font></i>

That's a troll statement with absolutely no validity.

<i><font color=#555555>"I disagree profoundly with your discouraging words to the OP."</font></i>

I would never discourage anyone from learning a language. I don't appreciate your agenda-ridden mis-characterization of my words, a habit you can't seem to control.

I would never discourage anyone from learning a language.>>

you just did - how else would you describe the passage quoted by Whathello?

my only "agenda" is to encourage the OP to have a go at learning italian; what's yours?

NYC
I'm sorry. There is a lot of positive in your posts.
About yourself.

You are a businesswoman
you can take decisions
you work out
you are a tall gorgeous blond actress
you are full of irony
you made a fortune of selling pics of yourself

Some info may be not totally accurate, I didn't make the efforts of going back into all your posts, I merely quoted from memory. I didn't see many useful info though...
When is the last time you gave a travel tip to somebody ?

I'm a tall gorgeous blond businessman, and I've a good memory...

annhig, I do my best to ignore troll posts, so I don't know what "passage" you speak of.

I'm a former property owner in Paris. I conduct business in France, and I've been working in Paris for almost thirty years. It has taken me a lifetime to learn French, and I still make mistakes.

Granted, I tend to be a perfectionist. Most people are content to know just a few words or phrases. Anyone who writes "I have no interest in conjugating verbs" is not at all serious about language. If you feel like taking the time to further encourage such a person, knock yourself out. My time is limited.

<i><font color=#555555>"I am living proof that you can learn a language as an adult"</font></i>

Well now, we really can't judge your skill right here and now, can we?

I have a business friend who travels to Italy at least twice a year, spending a month each visit. She takes enormous pride in the Italian "friends" she's accumulated, and she brags constantly about her skill at speaking "fluent" Italian. The first time I heard her speak Italian, I had to run for the Q-tips because my ears could not believe what they were hearing. It was as if she never learned the basics of pronunciation, making one obvious mistake after another. She's a prime example of Italian hospitality. Apparently, her Italian "friends" don't bother to correct her mess.

Sandy is correct when she writes, "Italians are very forgiving of a mispronunciation." The French, particularly in Paris, are not so forgiving. And the nasal thing is difficult to master.

annhig, I don't have a Pollyanna view of the world. Being a realist is not the same thing as being negative. But you have a bad and rude habit of projecting your negative spin onto my words.

annhig, I do my best to ignore troll posts, so I don't know what "passage" you speak of.>>

The passage I referred to here:

<<I would never discourage anyone from learning a language.>>

>>you just did - how else would you describe the passage quoted by Whathello?<<

vis:

<<Parisian salespeople are notoriously brutal towards tourists who murder their language. They exhibit no appreciation for a mediocre effort, and they'll often insist that you speak English just to get you to stop causing them ear pain.'>>

if that wasn't trying to discourage the OP, I don't know what it was.

>>"I am living proof that you can learn a language as an adult"<<

<<Well now, we really can't judge your skill right here and now, can we?>>

you're right, you can't, but you certainly have a good try by following that with your comments about a "friend" whose italian has you "running for the Q tips"

<<But you have a bad and rude habit of projecting your negative spin onto my words.>>

unlike you, I don't have time to keep count of the things that you have said that I've commented on. But if I ever read a positive remark about someone else from you, I'll be sure to let you know.

Annhig : this is the quote of the day !

To Snob : 'But if I ever read a positive remark about someone else from you, I'll be sure to let you know.'

BTW, for somebody who runs a business in France it should be known that 'Snob' has a negative connotation in french.

'se fourvoie dans une fausse élégance de ... parvenu' I really love this one and am ready to translate it should somebody asks.

From Wikipedia :
Un snob, c'est-à-dire une personne qui fait preuve de snobisme, cherche à se distinguer du commun des mortels mais se fourvoie dans une fausse élégance de parvenu ou un suivisme de cuistre. Désireux d'appartenir à une élite, le snob tend à reproduire le comportement d'une classe sociale ou intellectuelle qu'il estime supérieure. Souvent, il imite les signes distinctifs de cette classe, qu'il s'agisse du langage, des goûts, des modes ou des habitudes de vie. Il traite avec mépris ceux qu'il considère comme ses inférieurs1

Annhig...

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I have found both Italians and Parisians to be very appreciative of my efforts. The Parisians are (in my very limited experience) more likely to correct me...but they are always polite when doing so...I get the impression they are just trying to help me learn the language they love.

There is one other trick I have used on occasion. I call it the Carlin Method...based on a comedy routine by George Carlin. I am not being facetious or sarcastic. With some words that I do not know in French, I merely pronounce say them in English with a French accent.

This seems to work on two levels in terms of being understood:

(a) A huge number of English words came from French. For instance, a number of words that end in -tion, -able, or -ence are the same in French...or close.

(b)Native French speakers of English will usually speak English with a French accent, so pronouncing my English words that way can make them more easily understood.

I apologize if I have gone off the rails with this...many of my friends think I am either nuts or joking -- but I've never had anyone get angry when I have done it.

ssander

<just want to feel somewhat comfortable and be able to tell someone what I want or answer a simple question>

I know some Spanish, I've been working on it for years. I can read signs and the newspaper pretty well, greet people, order in a restaurant, understand prices/numbers.

To me the tricky part is understanding other people, either what they are asking you, or what they have just said in reply to your simple questions. That seems the hardest part to me. And I'm not talking verb conjugation or grammar, just simple exchanges.

For our OP I still say go for it!! And focus on basics for both places. Hello, thank you, excuse me, I'm sorry, food items, numbers, etc.

I think the handiest single phrase and learn it so it rolls of your tongue in each language is "I'm sorry I don't speak Italian/French, do you speak English?" said with a humble smile.

Ashley...

<em>Désolé, mon français est mauvais.</em>
I'm sorry, my French is bad.

<em>Mi dispiace, il mio italiano è male.</em>
I'm sorry, my Italian is bad.

Most people will be very helpful to the extent that they speak English...especially since you are showing your politeness and your need for help...and not reinforcing the stereotype that you demand others to speak English in their country.

Have fun...trying to communicate in a foreign country is part of the great experience...don't be shy or afraid to make mistakes.

ssander

>> I merely pronounce say them in English with a French accent.<<

That is hilarious. Whatever works.

Another approach is to learn "How do you say ..." in French and English and then say the English word.

For instance, in Italian, you would say, "Come si dice ... 'shoe'?" And the Italian speaker will say the translated word.

<i>I just want to feel somewhat comfortable and be able to tell someone what I want or answer a simple question.</i>

Going from English to another language will be much easier than the reverse since any native speaker will have such a large vocabulary. I've long thought of making a tourist t-shirt akin to the ones you see HS kids wearing with the names of all the people in their graduating class, but mine will have foreign words and be headed "These are the words I know. Speak slowly, no more than 5 in a sentence" ;-)

But if you mean answer a question such as "how many?" or "inside or outside?" at a cafe, you can learn those. Context is a real help. The person greeting you at the door in a restaurant is likely asking how many people or where you want to sit, even if you only grasp 1 or 2 words, rather than asking if you watched the soccer match last nite. So make an educated guess, and be willing to have a little laugh at yourself; sometimes I've guessed quite wrong.

I agree with previous recs for Michel Thomas. Great courses! He uses a trick, shared by most intro language courses, to get around conjugation. You learn to conjugate "would like" because you can then make sentences using the verb you actually care about in its infinitive form. So "I would like to see", "He would like to go", "Would you like to eat", and so on. Clearly this only goes so far, and isn't that helpful when a native speaker uses the normal conjugated verb instead of a circumlocution since you may not understand it.

Pimsleur is also a good starting course, but I wouldn't do all 3 levels since it goes kinda slow for the time you spend. The 1st level is enough, maybe the 2nd. The courses are very expensive, even on eBay, so if a local library doesn't have them I'd skip it. If you can find them I'd say start with Pimsleur before Michel Thomas.

To learn some vocabulary the online Memrise tool is effective, and free. For pronunciation practice take a look at the free FSI phonology courses you can find online. That plus a few key verbs and the trick above will let you express a fair amount. One book you might be interested in if you get really serious about learning is "Fluent Forever" by Wyner.

As for cultural understanding, for France this is well covered in the book "French or Foe" by Polly Platt. The 1st 3 chapters are an introduction for the visitor. I found this book very useful. I wonder if anyone can suggest an equivalent book for Italy?

With some words that I do not know in French, I merely pronounce say them in English with a French accent.>>

that's not so silly as it sounds, ssander - I don't know how many French words are the same [or almost] as english ones, but it must be pretty close to Spanish where there are said to be about 2000! That definitely made learning some Spanish for our recent trip to Cuba if not easy, certainly easier.

We managed ok when we got there but the best technique we found was the one adopted by the many Italian tourists who simply addressed the Cubans in Italian; the locals responded in Spanish and both groups seemed very happy with the arrangement!

<<As for cultural understanding, for France this is well covered in the book "French or Foe" by Polly Platt. The 1st 3 chapters are an introduction for the visitor. I found this book very useful. I wonder if anyone can suggest an equivalent book for Italy?>>

miket - I've never read Polly Prat [I might now!] so I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for but you might try Tim Parkes, who is a brit who married an Italian [his piece about the mistake that he made in his marriage vows is a hoot] and has written a lot about Italy. This is his first book, which I read quite a long time ago, but remember it as quite a good read:

http://tim-parks.com/non-fiction/italian-neighbours/

<<So make an educated guess, and be willing to have a little laugh at yourself; sometimes I've guessed quite wrong.>>

How true! sometimes I walk away thinking I've understood something and an hour later the light dawns! But the thing to remember is that it doesn't matter - you learn by making mistakes, not by speaking perfectly [which is probably unattainable unless you live there for years and years].

<<I think the handiest single phrase and learn it so it rolls of your tongue in each language is "I'm sorry I don't speak Italian/French, do you speak English?" said with a humble smile.>>

just don't learn to say it TOO well, else they won't believe you.

<<BTW, for somebody who runs a business in France it should be known that 'Snob' has a negative connotation in french.>>

I assumed that NYCFoodSnob was being ironic.

One of the most useful things to learn to say in any language is: speak more slowly please. Even if you know all the words the speed at which they come at you can be confusing.

I have found "mas despacio por favor" to be really useful in Spain. Definitely learn a similar phrase in Italian and french. I just use Spanish in Italy which works for me and my French is good enough that I can pick up what is being said to me - remembering that I am not discussing brain surgery or nuclear physics.

'Piano' works well in italian, and 'moins vite' or 'plus lentement' in french.

Don't forget to use your hands....

<i> However, as mentioned above, what is not an option are the greetings. You MUST greet the person before you start speaking. You MUST also greet when you enter a small store even if no one seems to be looking at you. </i>

This is also true in Italy, although Italians are fairly tolerant of foreigners who don't follow their etiquette rules. (It's "Buon giorno" until about 4 PM and "Buona sera" thereafter.

Annhig, Spaniards often speak Spanish to Italians, and we understand them pretty well. My husband thought the same would work in reverse, and tried it in Spain, but no one ever understood what he meant. I studied Spanish quite a lot, but years of speaking Italian has ruined my Spanish. I begin a sentence in Spanish and midway I realize I've switched to Italian.

I second the recommendation of Tim Parks! I've read several of his books. He sometimes appears on Italian TV. I don't remember that about his wedding vows. I'll have to re-read the book. His book was written in the late 1980s, if I remember correctly, but there were several things in his book that I found uncannily true:

The prodigious number of cabbages in Italian vegetable gardens, and their complete absence from the Italian table. (I've learned that people do eat them, but never serve them to guest.)

The obsession with housekeeping shared by many Italian women; they sweep and wash their floors, dust all the little what-nots, and even iron their socks and underwear.

But the best was the insurance agent who repeated word for word the discourse that Tim's insurance agent did, complete with the little gesture that accompanied "Facciamo le corna!"

My French is very rudimentary, just one year at university to round out my study of Spanish. I've never found French people, in Paris or elsewhere, to be impatient with my French. Sometimes they've offered to speak English, but not with any pained attitude. People who don't speak English (or Italian) usually make every effort to communicate and to understand what I'm saying.

In fact, I've never met this stereotypical impatient, supercilious French person people talk about.

I find that reading everyday French is fairly easy if you know any other Romance language.

Another cheer for Tim Parks' books. Polly Platt, not so much. There are things in her book that are just plain wrong (never bring yellow flowers when invited to dinner is one I seem to recall - read it a long time ago, but was not impressed with the accuracy).

My husband's French was pretty rudimentary when he first starated coming here, and I don't recall anyone every being less than patient and encouraging to him. Now he gets complimented on how much progress he's made with the language.