<i>You should sign up for real lessons, then. I don't think any of the online apps or software programs, except maybe Michael Thomas, is worth much. First of all, you have to be devoted to it, do the lessons, repeat them, do the exercises, follow through. A real-live class makes you do that.</i>Everyone has their own experiences, I supposed. I was able to learn enough thru Michel Thomas to handle simple interactions entirely in Italian or French.

In contrast I took a French class at a local community college, thinking a class with a native speaker was the way to go. It turned out that 2 hours once a week is nowhere near sufficient to learn, as one probably expects. I found the class frustrating, actually. You buy a book but, as people have pointed out, the pronunciation of French is not an easy thing for an English speaker to gleam from the words. In class the teacher would read thru the new vocabulary each week, saying the word once and then the class is supposed to repeat it. If you can learn a word hearing it once this is fine, but I couldn't. With a program you can rewind and listen again and again. I could see happening again what a friend way back in HS said about the Spanish class we were taking for foreign language; after 3 years we probably couldn't order a burrito in Spanish.

<<In class the teacher would read thru the new vocabulary each week, saying the word once and then the class is supposed to repeat it. If you can learn a word hearing it once this is fine, but I couldn't.>>

miket - that sounds like poor teaching to me. I've had some very good language teachers [my first german teacher was fantastic and I'm sure she's the reason that I've always loved speaking german] and some rubbish ones. The best ones give their students numerous opportunities for practising what they are supposed to be learning in a variety of ways, so that it you never just hear or say a word once.

I do agree though that supplementing lessons with tapes, CDs, on line materials is a very good idea. - the more the better.

One of my favorite resources that I use all the time is forvo.com, whose slogan is "All the words in the world. Pronounced." They probably haven't gotten all the words pronounced yet, but there are over 100 languages on their list.

You can look up many French or Italian (or Lakota or Samoan) words and hear them pronounced by native speakers.

If the word you want isn't on the list, you can register yourself and request that it be added. It doesn't take long in French; Samoan might take longer.

I am careful with French on this site. I check to see where the speaker is from, because a French speaker from Quebec is likely to pronounce a word differently from somebody in France.

Ashley, I would also suggest you start out learning the sentences that we all need as visitors when making reservations, checking into hotels, ordering at restaurants, buying tickets, shopping, or asking for directions.

Trying to learn a language in detail can be discouraging, especially conjugating verbs. Pick a few useful verbs to learn in the present tense, first person singular and plural. You're going to be using "I" and "we," so something like "I do/we do, I am/we are, I have/we have, I go/we go" will get a few basics fixed in your brain.

Like ssander, I resort to some low tricks, and one of them is to find verb forms in French that are spelled the same as a word in English though the meanings are completely different. It's just a mnemonic, but I need those! Some examples: Irons is French for We will go. Aura is French for He/she/it will have. Fit is French for He made.

Whatever works for you. Bonne chance.

I wouldn't worry too much about being able to communicate with native speakers in either country. Even after a year of learning, you may find that your oral comprehension is only fair, and that native speakers tend to speak a lot faster than you may be used to hearing in a class of beginners.

However learning a new language can be fun. Given a choice I would take a class in Italian. It is easier to learn, and has far fewer rules of pronunciation than French. While you may find conjugating verbs tedious, will help you increase your vocabulary and help you to understand the structure of the language. A good resource is 501 Italian verbs... btw this book is available in many languages.

Many public libraries have online language learning programs which are useful for beginners and tourists. they are interactive too, and the BBC has a free online language program. While they are not as good as a live class you can practice listening to the language as well as learning different phrases and words.

Although you may believe that people where you live only speak English you may find that there are others who learned a language while in school or are doing what you intend to do, and would like to be able to keep up their language skills. Perhaps when you return from your trip you could see if your local library or a community center would be interested in forming a group where you can continue to speak your new language.

I learned Spanish the traditional way - grammar and conjugations from the beginning and while I can understand a lot it does not flow easily off my tongue.

However when I learned French they had a different system. For the first 8 weeks all we did was talk - listen and repeat and shortly do little questions and answers - to get used to the rhythm and pronunciation without having to worry about spelling. Then in week 9 we got the written version of week 1. We had already become so used to pronouncing the words and phrases - and by this time mini conversations of 3 or 4 back and forths - that adding the written part was much simpler. We spend the entire first year this way and it really made learning MUCH simpler.

By the time we got to year 2 we got much more into grammar and conjugating verbs - as well as increasing our vocabulary - but we already had the basis of the sounds and pronunciation and the dictees were easy. but it was really more like grammar in english - the correct uses just SOUNDED right - you didn't have to think once you had added the verb to your vocabulary.

to this day I speak and understand French much more easily - words and phrases just pop out and I don't think about translating and plan on what to say as I have to in Spanish.

I know my brother was taught Spanish the same way - but with records for home. I still remember the beginning of his first lesson because I heard it about a million times: "Hola Isabel, como esta? Estoy bien gracias, y tu?" And he was able to figure out very basic italian and even a little written french based on his spanish.

But I admit that even with this method some of the kids just could not get into French - and 2 in my calss had to repeat year 1.

So if this is something you really want you should definitely go for it. And agree that after you return many school districts or community colleges have conversational courses that are good for reinforcing what you know and picking up new vocab.

The BBC guide to give you the basics is called Talk Italian 1. The BBC website has all the videos to go with that book/CD combo

<<Fit is French for He made.>>

No, that would be il a fait. Whatever works for you, for sure, but some of these "tricks" people use would never work for me. And they're often incorrect.

"<<Fit is French for He made.
No, that would be il a fait."

Fit does means "he made"-. It is the passé simple of "faire"- more written than spoken language but still...........
"Il a fait" is the passé composé. Also means "he made".

rather like Ohio meaning good morning in Japanese,

However when I learned French they had a different system. For the first 8 weeks all we did was talk - listen and repeat and shortly do little questions and answers - to get used to the rhythm and pronunciation without having to worry about spelling. >>

nyt - that's exactly what I was talking about. OK it sounds as if both the system and the teacher were good, but good teaching is the key to language learning [and probably every other sort of learning too!]

fortunately Italian doesn't have the same pronunciation and spelling problems as french [and english] but a good teacher will definitely help.

Passé simple is beautiful.
'Il fit ses adieux et nous ne le revîmes plus.'

Yes, I know fit is the passé simple or litéraire, but this is a discussion about learning to converse in French and Italian. It would sound either silly or snooty to use the passé simple in spoken French.

I think it's more the system than the quality of the teaching - but of course, a quality teacher will always help a lot.

The benefit of verbal only at first is that the phrases and sentences become automatic - so you're not really translating - they just pop into your mind (as when a small child is learning their native language - no one tries to teach then grammar at first).

snooty ?

fi, très chère, il eut été de bon ton de signaler que le passé simple n'est absolument pas snobinard, vous m'en voyez marri !

It is absolutely impossible to speak or read using the passé simple without making fun of it... too bad actiually.

Do you use the passé simple in speaking, B? I've never known anyone who did, but I think it would come across as rather bizarre. We have a whole series of children's books here at home that, surprising to me, use the passé simple, but in speaking? Which was the subject of this thread. I have no problem with the passé simple - it's beautiful and I hope it never dies out, as it might, but it's of relatively little use to anyone wanting to learn to speak French. Non? For those who want to read, yes, it's essential, but for the average Americain wanting to learn spoken French, realistically it's just not going to happen.And I never, ever hear it spoken by the French themselves. I hear Occitan often, but not the Passé simple, unless someone is doing a reading.

I picked up Italian words... from the opera: Dove (from Figaro), Cuanto?
(from Tosca.) From experience: chiuso. From necessity: toilet. -:)

I recently saw a video of the actor Colin Firth (who's married to an Italian) being interviewed in Italian. Sounded good to me. However, the comments on the video were mostly from Italians who said his accent was atrocious but his vocabulary was magnificent.

I really envy those of you who who can experience a culture through its language.

St C - I've visited France countless times, and even managed to converse with some real French people but I've never heard the passé simple either, let alone used it. Interestingly [to some of us] it is used more in spoken Italian, particularly in the south I understand, and much more in Spanish where they use it like we do in english - I came, I saw, I conquered etc. [I say "they" advisedly, I never managed to get my head round it!]

Gwendolynn - I bet you understand a lot more than you think. I've not heard Mr Firth speak italian - I'll look out for him.

annhig, I found the video….. but not the comments.
http://smilingeggplant.blogspot.com/...s-italian.html

Is the <em>passé simple</em> the equivalent of the preterite tense in Spanish? In high school Spanish we were taught that this is used for action that began and ended in the past at a specific time.

I have noticed that my daughter-in-law (for whom Spanish is a first language) uses it regularly with my 2-year-old grandson...so I assume it is fairly common in conversational Spanish.

When she asks if he is finished doing something, she says, "Terminaste?" Are you finished? in second person (informal) preterite.

(I'm not trying to hijack this thread and turn it into a grammar discussion, but it does interest me.)

sander

StCirq,

Of course no. I never speak in passé simple - that is why when I wrote it here, I said it looks fun and I added old words (fi, marri) because it just looks like ... nearly medieval. Passé simple is still alive in writing, subjonctif imparfait is about dead...

an interesting link with a schema of the different 'temps'
http://www.ralentirtravaux.com/lettr...mode_temps.php

W (not B).

ssander : the passé simple indicates an action (usually brief) that began and ended in the past, just like in Spanish, but it is seldom used in the spoken language.

I think some people, and I'm one, learn better if I understand the structure of a language. Others learn better aurally. I tried to learn some Polish using a traditional grammar-and-vocabulary book and also DuoLingo, which introduces conversation with very little grammatical explanation. I found I couldn't remember the phrases unless I checked the book to see what parts of speech and inflections they were using.

The equivalent to <i>passé simple</i> or <i>preterito</i> in Italian is the <i>passato remoto</i>, which is not very much used in northern or central Italy. It's used in speech when recounting something that happened long ago, as the "remoto" would indicate, such as, "Giulio Cesare fu assassinato dai nemici", or is over and done with, such as, "Andai a Milano all'età di due anni". History teachers use it all the time when lecturing, and politicians use it when making speeches, but I rarely hear people use it in normal conversation. (There's one very formal lady in our town who uses it a lot, but to balance her out, there's one guy who gives the "tu" to everybody.)

I've been told the passato remoto is overused in some parts of southern Italy, for anything that's been finished, as in, "Feci il pranzo due ore fa." I haven't spent much time in southern Italy, so that's hearsay.

I just listened to the video of Colin Firth, and I would say his Italian, including the accent, is not bad at all. I've heard much worse. I'd like to hear the English of those who said his accent is atrocious!

No person who learns a language as an adult can completely get rid of a foreign accent. Even if their mother tongue is a language that's very similar, they'll still have an accent. Pope Francis, for example, speaks Italian very fluently. His native tongue is Spanish, though, and he definitely has an accent, even though Spanish pronunciation is very close to Italian.

I can hear other people's accents, but I just can't get rid of my own. I've noticed that accents are harder to detect when people are singing, and I've wondered if singing Italian sentences for practice would help me get rid of the accent.

Bv
Nope. Singing doesn't improve accent.
Celine Dion sings in perfect French and speaks with an invredible thick Quebec accent.

<<Is the passé simple the equivalent of the preterite tense in Spanish? In high school Spanish we were taught that this is used for action that began and ended in the past at a specific time

I have noticed that my daughter-in-law (for whom Spanish is a first language) uses it regularly with my 2-year-old grandson...so I assume it is fairly common in conversational Spanish..>>

insofar as it's the same "part of speech" ssander, though with a different name and used far more frequently in spoken Spanish than in spoken French, as your anecdote demonstrates. I was very surprised when I found it taught relatively early by Michel Thomas in his Spanish course [he even has a little rhyme to help one remember the endings!] whereas I've rarely used it in Italian and only then when I'm trying to write a "high-flown" piece.

<<I've been told the passato remoto is overused in some parts of southern Italy, for anything that's been finished, as in, "Feci il pranzo due ore fa." I haven't spent much time in southern Italy, so that's hearsay.>>

bvl - I'll be on the look out for it in Sicily, that's for sure.

bvlenci, on the subject of carrying accents from one's native language, I have an accent speaking French, although most French speakers think it is something other than American, i.e. Belgian, Scandinavian or something else. Interestingly, now that I am learning Italian, Italian speakers tell me I have a French accent in that language. Frankly I think it's all in the "R"! LOL

Frankly I think it's all in the "R"! LOL>>

Shellio, I don't think that it's just about the way you pronounce the R, IMO it's more about where in your mouth the sound comes from. I know that my mouth shape changes depending on which language I'm speaking - for English and indeed German it comes from much further back in the mouth, [though with German you have to work the lips and tongue harder than you do for English] whereas for French, Spanish and Italian it's further forward, and particularly for Italian I feel that I have to speak with the whole of my face, not just with my lips and tongue.

Does that make sense? IME how you say the R is just a part of this process [though perhaps I would say that as I can't roll my Rs for toffee - I think it's something to do with the length of your tongue!]

I'm sure that however hard we try we're going to have an accent when we speak a foreign language - just as even the best foreign speakers of english almost always do.

I've told to have a belgian accent when I speak french,a german accent when I speak english, a french accent when I speak dutch and a horrible accent when I speak german.

I am nowhere 'safe'. :-)
I love most accents except of course the one from my region and my in-laws'region.

My preferred ones are Marseillais (which I tend to acquire if I'm on too many pastis) or Quebec for French, Italian speaking english, french speaking german. The most complicated to understand are Koreans speaking english, imo worse than Australians, but not by far ;-)

The best accent I've ever heard was a guy from Congo, I think, who had emigrated to Quebec : the mix of these accents was too much for me. Never been able to listen to the guy (he was a priest actually...).

lol, What, have you tried Russian?

The British have a tendency to " characterise" different languages, in a fairly arbitrary way - French is romantic, Italian musical, german guttural , etc, etc.

Do any other nations do this?

<i> Nope. Singing doesn't improve accent.
Celine Dion sings in perfect French and speaks with an invredible thick Quebec accent. </i>

I was thinking of trying to sing sentences like, "Did you remember to get the car inspected?", or, "I'm just running out to the store." Only as practice, you understand, when no one's listening.

Annhig, through six years of intensive Spanish study, and three years of Italian study, I could never roll an "r" to save my life. Then one day, I was angry at my husband, and giving him a good telling off, and those "rr"s just rrrolled rrright off my tongue. I've never had a problem since. You probably know that you don't roll a single "r", you just kind of flip it. (One mark of a Roman accent is that they double their single consonants: "Sono rromana.")

When I was learning Spanish in high school, the teacher made us say, "Erre con erre barril, erre con erre cigarro. Allá en el ferrocarril, rápido corren los carros." It didn't help.

Spassiba !

I've been told I have a good accent in Polish - too bad I know about 25 words... It might be because I have never seen Polish written, I'm told words here and there by polish colleagues. (So far beer, dog, cement mixer, headache, wine, turn left, happy new year and one swearword ... very useful)

So you can say, "Happy New Year! I knew I shouldn't mix beer and wine, now I have a %$&&* headache like the inside of a cement mixer. I need some of the tail of the dog that bit me!

Or is it the "hair of the dog that bit me"? I'm forgetting my English!

Annhig, through six years of intensive Spanish study, and three years of Italian study, I could never roll an "r" to save my life. Then one day, I was angry at my husband, and giving him a good telling off, and those "rr"s just rrrolled rrright off my tongue. I've never had a problem since. >>

bvl - can I borrow your husband?

it's the "hair of the dog" though why I have no idea.

whathello - that's an impressive list. My Polish is limited to "Dwa piwa prosze." or "two beers please".

I can roll an "r" with the best of them and have perfected the French "rhhhh" - it's no problem, just different from an American "r." I love sounds. I think maybe it's my musical background that helps me, but I can imitate virtually any sound on earth, except some Asian tonal ones.

I forget English, too bvlenci. I find myself these days asking my spouse "what's the word for...." in English all too frequently. I no longer dream in English, either. It's really funny how the brain works

Annhig, can't you get angry at your own husband?

I find myself using the wrong words when I'm speaking English, like "throw the trash in the chest" (cestino=basket, used also for trash bin), or "stamp (stampare = print) your boarding card".

I get embarrassed when an Italian asks me to translate something and I can't remember the English word.

Another very strange thing is that I find myself reverting to the British words for things. My parents were Irish, and I first learned the British names for many things. These words may be the ones most deeply planted in my brain, but it's probably reinforced by the fact that the English I see here is more likely the British form. In hotels, you'll see a sign for the lift, not the elevator.

Bvlebci
You got me my first laugh of the day !
Thanks :-)

'R' has to be learnt for us frenxhspeaking in order to speak Flemish. Theirs is much more pronounced. Like some old people used to do in france in some places like Burrrrrgundy.

bvlenci wrote...

<em>When I was learning Spanish in high school, the teacher made us say, "Erre con erre barril, erre con erre cigarro. Allá en el ferrocarril, rápido corren los carros." It didn't help.</em>

In my HS Spanish class we sang a very short Christmas song to practice rolling our Rs (to the tune of Alouette):

Arre borriquito, arre borriquito,
Arre borriquito, arre a Belem

I just googled it, and apparently there is a different song of the same name out there. Our teacher probably just gave us something she made up.

I can roll my Rs quite well most of the time, but some preceeding sounds make it more difficult for me.

ssander