"You should have contacted the consulate of the country that you are traveling to "

Why?

We don't limit visitors to 6 months. As the poster asks: what's the point? And, as spaarne points out, we tell people when they arrive how long they've got. As, BTW, does the US.

It's all very well saying ignorance of the law's no excuse. But governments really do have an obligation to communicate to people.

It really does seem as if Schengen's immigration authorities are too arrogant, lazy or incompetent (or probably all three) to do something as simple as design an entry stamp that tells visitors where they stand.

And then they demand "ever closer union". See why we think they're hopeless?

"my entry stamp at London last month gives me 6 months in the UK" and (from flanneruk) "We don't limit visitors to 6 months" - so which is it?

AND:

Much as I hate being dragged into legal arguments with Sheila, it's simply not true in the EU that "Ignorantia iuris neminem excusat". And not just because Latin's not an official language.

Might have been in Justinian's day: but he's not around any more. The ECJ ruled in March that it's the job of governments to communicate their laws: and on Community matters, an uncommunicated regulation has no validity.

I know about the Schengen requirements because I've been on this board for 10 years. If you aren't a travel fanatic and spend all your time researching travel, it is NOT that obvious. In fact, I just checked two guidebooks. The Rough Guide does list Visas in the index, and it says you can't stay in Greece for more than 90 days. It mentions Schengen but doesn't say what it is, and it is totally not clear that you couldn't move from one country to another. I think that was the OPs point - she knew she couldn't stay in any one country, just didn't know that you couldn't stay in a combination of them for more than 90 days. BTW, I couldn't find anything about Visas in my most recent Fodors (Germany). It may be in there but not in the obvious places I looked, or in the index.

I think a lot of the responses are a whole lot more arrogant than the OP's question (which I do not think was arrogant at all).

In Fodors' guidebooks, the Visa/Entry requirement is listed under "Smart Travel Tips" section in the guidebooks.

I have Fodors, Frommers, DK Eyewitness guidebooks at home (for various European destinations), and while none of them spell out the specific details of the Schengen rules, they all mention the 90-day limit in the "Visa/Entry Requirement" sections.

Since the OP was planning a 4-month trip to Europe, I think he/she should have looked into it before the trip.

No sympathy for the OP since it was known before departure and decided to break the law anyway. Will this show when the OP next attempts to travel to Europe and the passport is scanned? Will the OP be denied entry for previous violation?

I LOVE the self-righteous posters above who are whining about "breaking the law"...some of the same people who tie up multiple hotel rooms because they "can't make a decision" about where they want to stay until the last minute; the same ones who are ALWAYS telling us not to pay parking violation tickets "because you'll probably never go back" and the same ones who are buying R/T airline tickets and "discarding the unused portion" to save money and the same ones who lie about their kids' ages to get free admissions; or perhaps it's that group of people who take half the breakfast buffet along with them from their hotel for lunch. And let's not even START talking about the ways we can get around paying taxes...

Hey, OP...glad it worked out for you and that you made it back from the wild side.

But, in the future, please SPEND EVERY WAKING MINUTE on this board in case some useful information is posted like how your hubby is a hotel snob but insists you flie in cattle car class.

Colonna - I can understand your confusion. Glad it worked out for you.

I think part of the confusion stems from the fact that the rule seems to not be enforced very often.

To tell the truth, the only thing surprising to me about your story was that anyone even noticed or asked about the fact that you had stayed in the Schengen zone longer than the 90 days.

We're US citizens living in Europe for a year and many expats over here have stories of their residence permits being delayed (bureaucratic backlogs), and then they have to travel for business or family emergencies after they've been here 90 days but before the official permits have arrived. And I don't know anyone that has had any actual problem or even been questioned about the situation. Which is not to say it can't happen. I'm just reporting the experience of various people we know.

It happened to us too. We had to go back to the States after we'd been here 90 days, but before our residence documents had come through. We called various government offices asking what we should do. We were basically told by the government officials here "not to worry about it". It seemed like they were trying to tell us, without actually baldly saying so, that the law isn't really enforced except as a way to get rid of people who are considered undesirable for some other reason. So we traveled back to the States and then back to Europe and no one seemed to notice or care that we had been here longer than 90 days. Now that we do have our residence permits, no one has ever asked to see them. Our passports have been looked at a number of times for various reasons as we've traveled to the States and to various European countries but no one has ever flipped through the pages to see when we first arrived or asked us how long we've been here (9 months at this point).

I'm NOT suggesting anyone should ignore the rules. We've done everything by the book as far as we were able and that would certainly be my advice to anyone else.

I'm just pointing out that the enforcement of this rule seems rather inconsistent, and I don't know what the truth of the matter really is in terms of how seriously the issue is viewed by various governments. It's certainly possible it varies from Schengen country to Schengen country. Ah well, I intend to follow the rules so hopefully it is only of academic interest- but it does make me curious about it all.

Thanks to all for all the information and opinions.

I found out about Schengen here in a very convoluted thread about a couch surfer, which I was reading more for entertainment than information. I wasn't asking for sympathy or claiming ignorance of the law (though I was certainly ignorant about it). I'm very grateful to the Greek border agent who excused me.

When I go somewhere for the first time, I check out requirements; none of my European trips in the past required visas, except when I was in school in one country for more than three months.

I know that visitors to the US are not received graciously at some of our airports, and find that shameful.

Just wasn't clear that all the EU countries (or the Schengen countries, which I thought until today were the same but have now learned are not) tightened up, so that the length of time you used to be able to spend in each has now become the length of time you can spend in all. If I have that more or less right.

First of all can I please make it clear that I'm not getting at colonna or anyone.

Secondly, I understand that all the fuss I created (yes, I KNOW it was self inflicted) over my US visit, is making me take the view that id WE have to go through this to visit the US, then what's sauce for the goose.

Thirdly, and notwithstanding the foregoing, how on earth can anyone travel overseas without checking (even if the foreign country's web site and phone lines give rubbish information- down girl!!).

IF I had not looked in a book or at the US Embassy web site, before I went to Cape Cod in 2007, how would I have known I had to leave within 6 months?

if I'd just pitched up I'd have had that form thing to fill in on the plane, and I'd have had my intimidating interview with the man with no neck at Logan airport, how would I have known (actually I just checked and it IS in the smallprint. Mind you no-one told me so my point stands).

And Schengen wasn't introduced "to make it easier for nationals of countries who needed a visa to get one visa which would be valid in Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, and France.". It was introduced to aid free movement for Schengen Nationals.

Michael, your ECJ case is escaping me. Can you give me a reference please?

And, BTW, you might want to get off your high horse on the exit stuff. No-one here checks to see if short term visa holders have left, and I always tell my overstayers to leave with their fingers crossed. At an educated guess 80% of them get out without the officers noticing

I totally understand what you are saying. My partner and I traveled to Europe for four or five months at a time about 7 times before I ever heard of such a thing -- still not sure if it was in effect then. And we did a couple times after we heard of it too. Nothing ever came up.

And I fully understand your question about not knowing about it or wondering who you were to ask. You'd have to know about to ask about it, and why if you had never heard about such a thing would you expect to ask about it? That's almost like going to a restaurant and their telling you they don't provide silverware -- you are supposed to bring your own -- then scolding you for not calling in advance to find out if silverware would be provided. Why would you have called and suspected anything? Just like why would you have checked on time limits about staying in Europe when you had read a dozen guidebooks, booked tickets with a major outline, and nothing had ever been mentioned about it?

NorCalif writes:
<i>We're US citizens living in Europe for a year and many expats over here have stories of their residence permits being delayed (bureaucratic backlogs), and then they have to travel for business or family emergencies after they've been here 90 days but before the official permits have arrived.</i>

I moved to Germany about 15 years ago. When I went into the city hall ("Rathaus" in German, no kidding) to get my residence permit the clerk took my passport and said I would get the permit in a few weeks. I told her that I needed to travel that week. The permit was issued the next day.

flanneruk writes:
<i>It really does seem as if Schengen's immigration authorities are too arrogant, lazy or incompetent (or probably all three) to do something as simple as design an entry stamp that tells visitors where they stand.</i>

Agree. My two entry stamps at Amsterdam (one is hardly legible) simply show the date and an airplane and Schiphol. The Dutch also give you an exit stamp.

Then I looked for my entry stamp to France in December at CDG Paris. Nothing. I guess they are saving ink. No exit stamp either. And no re-entry stamp from the USA Department of Homeland Security Customs and Border Protection when I returned to Detroit. I'm sure I went to Paris, or was I dreaming Paris? London did not give me an exit stamp so officially I might still be in the UK, except that DoHSCBP in Minneapolis stamped me in when I returned, with the wrong date. There is a place on the stamp where the official can write the validity date next to "until," under a line labeled "class." Foreigners might want to check the info to make sure they don't get caught in a serious jam by mistake.

It looks to me that immigration cops on both sides are as flanneruk describes.

sheila,

Interesting remarks, but it would help if you would say where you live. I assume someplace in Europe.

You write:
<i>And Schengen wasn't introduced "to make it easier for nationals of countries who needed a visa to get one visa which would be valid in Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, and France.". It was introduced to aid free movement for Schengen Nationals.</i>

There was already free movement for Schengen Zone nationals, and holders of European residence permits, prior to Schengen. I lived in Holland for two years in the 70s and drove all over Europe with no trouble. Passport control was in effect, but it was still in effect for years after Schengen. Remember, the European Union is not the same as the Schengen Zone.

spaarne, did the customs swipe your passport (magnetic stripe)?

nancicita,

The USA officer put it into a machine which apparently read the info at the bottom of my picture page.

Great ad thread for the state department's website. Go, click on a country and up pops - entry/exit requirements.

TravMimi,

Yeah, sure. The State Department page titled Schengen Fact Sheet is at http://tinyurl.com/pnvd75. Do you see any mention of the 90 in 180 day rule? Nada, nope, and never will be.

Flanneruk's hypothesis is valid all the way up the chain of command.

I live in the UK.

I know there was some free movement but it was not universal amongst Schngen members, or even uniformly applied. Mind you, it still isn't.

(I practice, amongst other things, immigration law. I know about Schengen:)).

I just don't understand how one can travel abroad without bothering to find out what the visa rules are.

The comment on here I find most remarkable is Otzi's

"So in the future we should be contacting the Lithuanian Law Society of America to read every book in their library prior to visiting"

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. But I would imagine you check the speed limits before driving a car overseas? Why wouldn't you do the same with your visa?

Ummm. I didn't go to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website to find out about visa regs for the US. I went to the US Embassy (more's the pity)

I took a look at the French and Italian embassy websites (for the US), and I have to say, the Schengen restriction is not at all obvious on the French site, and seems to be missing entirely on the Italian site, so the OP has a better excuse than I thought. My apologies!

And I'm still interested in one of the original questions - is there any legal way for a US citizen to spend more than 90 days just traveling in Schengen (i.e. not studying or visiting relatives)?