Schengen violator has questions
 

I just returned from a four-month trip to France, Belgium, Italy and Greece (and it was wonderful). When I booked my FF ticket last summer, I had never heard of the Schengen 90-day rule, and the airline didn't mention it; just before I left, I read something about it on this board, but I didn't change the trip-- I went ahead, with mild trepidation.


Absolutely nothing happened until I was set to leave Athens at 8:00 AM last week, when the exit control man scanned my passport repeatedly, asked me when I'd arrived in a "member country," scolded me and told me not to do it again. He said, "If I want to come to the US, I ask how long I can stay. You must ask." But he didn't say who to ask (France? Belgium? the president of the EU?), and I was eager to get out and just thanked him.

My questions are: If you are not in any place long enough to get a visa, is there any way to travel around the EU for more than 90 days? and (rhetorical) How is a person supposed to know about this rule? Friends who live in Europe had never heard of it, though I guess they would have no reason to. It did seem that the airline might have asked me if I knew I might be in violation.

Also, what is the purpose of the rule?

You were really lucky to get away without a fine and an entry in your passport.

When travelling to a foreign country, it's the traveller's duty (who else's?) to check in advance if there are any visa rules to observe, isn't it?
Any travel guide book, the website of any embassy, any country's tourist information website contains this kind of information.

1. Yes. get a visa before you leave.

2. Ignorantia iuris neminem excusat

3. It's the law. It's to control entry to a country.

You're supposed to apply for a visa before you arrive, from the first Schengen country you plan to visit. Then it's valid in all the others. And not to be unsymaptehtic, but it's your responsibilty to organise what visas or otehr entry clearance you need. You seem to have got away with it this time, as it doesn't sound as if they've blacklisted you.

Purpose: to stop people from coming with the intention of working illegally, basically. Few tourists with jobs at home can spare more than three months for a trip.

I do feel lucky, under the circumstances. But it was not hard to miss this news-- a slightly outdated guidebook wouldn't have had it, and I didn't see it in the paper. I've spent a lot of time on tourist websites (not embassy ones, I'll admit), without seeing this warning, just encouragement to visit. I knew I couldn't stay in any particular country, but didn't realize there was a new rule applying to all EU countries.

You joined Fodors in 2007. Since then, there have been many posts about the rules of staying in the Schengen zone (do a simple search). So how can you honestly report it was "not hard to miss" this news? Especially when you admit you DID hear about it on Fodors? You were very lucky that the Greek official was so permissive.

After I have slaughtered my wife, I was very surprised that I was imprisoned.

I did not know that it was forbidden to murder one's wife. How is a person supposed to know about this rule?

As everyone has said, it's up to you to find out about any entry rules applying to you in any country or group of countries you visit, and abide by them. You did overstay in Schengen by a month. Greek authorities let you continue on your return journey, but they could have thrown the book at you - usually a ban from returning to Schengen for 5 years.
The fact none of your friends knew about Schengen rule isn't surprising. They probably have a long-term visa, permanent residency or EU passport so they are exempt from 90-in-180 day rule (strictly speaking, if you have a long-stay visa for one Schengen state, your stay in other Schengen countries is limited to 90-in-180 days, but in practice hardly anyone cares).
Remember Schengen and EU aren't the same - some countries not in EU are in Schengen (Switzerland, Norway, Iceland etc) and some EU countries have opted out of Schengen (e.g. UK, Ireland, so separate rules apply).

So in the future we should be contacting the Lithuanian Law Society of America to read every book in their library prior to visiting? I just love the holier-than-thou attitude some of you people have. The OP was simply asking for help and advice; not asking for a scolding from internet parents. If I go to a country that prohibits passing wind on the street I deserve to go to prison because I didn't read up on all the nation's laws?

This is another example of the people on this board going into attack mode on a post. The OP posed a legitimate question. Yes, some of the comments are to the point--you should know the basic regulations and laws of where you are going to travel. But let's get real, there are all kinds of things that are ok in one place and can land you in jail in another.

Sorry, but the OP's post was outright arrogant and insulting.

Each country on this planet has admission and immigration rules - the USA have some of the strictest on earth (last December at Chicago airport, my son was interrogated for one hour by heavily-armed U.S. immigration officers just because he had an Egyptian stamp in his passport - he had joined us for a Nile cruise).

Foreign visitors are regularly humiliated and harassed by U.S. immigration officers and OP is complaining that the Schengen countries require a visum if someone stays longer than three (!) months! How arrogant can people be?

ok, I'll admit to being as ignorant as the OP about Schengen rules regardless of how many times it's been posted about here. Now you have my attention. And I have what is probably a very stupid or obsessive question. We travel to Europe several times a year, never for anything like 90 days or more but I've just tallied up the amount of time we're likely to be there for all the trips we have scheduled and if we take one more, we could go over the limit--provided the limit is 90 days in a year (not if it's 90 days in 180) Our longest trip is 19 days and these trips are spread over a full year with a month or even two or three in between. Should I be worried about getting a visa?

I'm with traveller1959 - before you visit another country, you check the visa rules. Preferably on the embassy web site. You never know - I figured I didn't need a visa for Australia when I was using my British passport - I was wrong. Fortunately that's a visa you can get at the airport as you board the plane (in Indonesia, no less!), but if I'd been stuck it would have been my own fault.

JulieVikmanis

You are fine. The limit is 90 days in any continuous period of 180 days.

So which is it?

Colonna's too lazy to read the stamp in his or her passport? But still feels entitled to whinge.

Or the useless tossers in the Schengen system can't be bothered stamping passports to tell visitors when they're supposed to get out? But still feel entitled to lecture us for not wanting to have anything to do with their xenophobic - and clearly ill-communicated- stunt.

Either way: thank God (or rather our Government, which most certainly isn't God) we're not in it.

Hi Col,

You are allowed to visit any or all of the Schengen countries of 90 days.

You must leave for 90 days before reutrning for up to 90 days.

((I))

The Schengen Agreement was initiated in 1985. The purpose was to make it easier for nationals of countries who needed a visa to get one visa which would be valid in Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, and France. Prior to this they needed to get a separate visa for each country.

Americans do not need a visa for these countries, nor for the other 20 or so countries which now accept the Schengen visa, for stays of up to 90 days. Back in the old days Americans could jump over the border somewhere on the 89th day, get a stamp in the passport, and continue on for another 90 days. Now it's 90 days in a 180 day period for all of the Schengen countries. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, but where is the list of Schengen countries posted that an innocent American can handily find, much less, except for specialized travel sites like Fodor's, how would anybody even know that such a thing as the Schengen zone exists.

It looks like the OP hit the wrong immigration cop, who then had a change of heart. I have overstayed Schengen 3 or 4 times by months and was never advised of the fact as I left Holland.

BTW, my entry stamp at London last month gives me 6 months in the UK, and adds "Employment and access to public funds prohibited." The UK and Ireland are not members of the Schengen Zone.

I'm shocked that one could book travel to Europe for a 4-month stay without ever thinking about visa requirements.

colonna, why did you wait so long to find out about the rules?
You should have contacted the consulate of the country that you are traveling to well in advance of your departure date to sort out details and ask questions.

visas are required for many nationals of other countries (for example, Chinese nationals) who want to travel to the Schengen states. Those of us with American passports are lucky that we have a 90-day visa waiver. It is a privilege, not a right, for US passport holders to be able to travel to Schengen. Having this privilege does not entitle Americans to being completely ignorant about visa policies.

colonna, you're very lucky that you didn't get ARRESTED and DEPORTED by the Foreign Police!

Every guidebook I've ever bought or borrowed from the library, has a section on Visa/Entry requirements. It's not rocket science.

Many people don't know about it, or need to know about it, but the OP was aware of something about it, and did state:

..I read something about it on the board, but didn't change the trip -- I went ahead, with mild trepidation.

There goes that sympathy factor. Sorry

"You should have contacted the consulate of the country that you are traveling to "

Why?

We don't limit visitors to 6 months. As the poster asks: what's the point? And, as spaarne points out, we tell people when they arrive how long they've got. As, BTW, does the US.

It's all very well saying ignorance of the law's no excuse. But governments really do have an obligation to communicate to people.

It really does seem as if Schengen's immigration authorities are too arrogant, lazy or incompetent (or probably all three) to do something as simple as design an entry stamp that tells visitors where they stand.

And then they demand "ever closer union". See why we think they're hopeless?

"my entry stamp at London last month gives me 6 months in the UK" and (from flanneruk) "We don't limit visitors to 6 months" - so which is it?

AND:

Much as I hate being dragged into legal arguments with Sheila, it's simply not true in the EU that "Ignorantia iuris neminem excusat". And not just because Latin's not an official language.

Might have been in Justinian's day: but he's not around any more. The ECJ ruled in March that it's the job of governments to communicate their laws: and on Community matters, an uncommunicated regulation has no validity.

I know about the Schengen requirements because I've been on this board for 10 years. If you aren't a travel fanatic and spend all your time researching travel, it is NOT that obvious. In fact, I just checked two guidebooks. The Rough Guide does list Visas in the index, and it says you can't stay in Greece for more than 90 days. It mentions Schengen but doesn't say what it is, and it is totally not clear that you couldn't move from one country to another. I think that was the OPs point - she knew she couldn't stay in any one country, just didn't know that you couldn't stay in a combination of them for more than 90 days. BTW, I couldn't find anything about Visas in my most recent Fodors (Germany). It may be in there but not in the obvious places I looked, or in the index.

I think a lot of the responses are a whole lot more arrogant than the OP's question (which I do not think was arrogant at all).

In Fodors' guidebooks, the Visa/Entry requirement is listed under "Smart Travel Tips" section in the guidebooks.

I have Fodors, Frommers, DK Eyewitness guidebooks at home (for various European destinations), and while none of them spell out the specific details of the Schengen rules, they all mention the 90-day limit in the "Visa/Entry Requirement" sections.

Since the OP was planning a 4-month trip to Europe, I think he/she should have looked into it before the trip.

No sympathy for the OP since it was known before departure and decided to break the law anyway. Will this show when the OP next attempts to travel to Europe and the passport is scanned? Will the OP be denied entry for previous violation?

I LOVE the self-righteous posters above who are whining about "breaking the law"...some of the same people who tie up multiple hotel rooms because they "can't make a decision" about where they want to stay until the last minute; the same ones who are ALWAYS telling us not to pay parking violation tickets "because you'll probably never go back" and the same ones who are buying R/T airline tickets and "discarding the unused portion" to save money and the same ones who lie about their kids' ages to get free admissions; or perhaps it's that group of people who take half the breakfast buffet along with them from their hotel for lunch. And let's not even START talking about the ways we can get around paying taxes...

Hey, OP...glad it worked out for you and that you made it back from the wild side.

But, in the future, please SPEND EVERY WAKING MINUTE on this board in case some useful information is posted like how your hubby is a hotel snob but insists you flie in cattle car class.

Colonna - I can understand your confusion. Glad it worked out for you.

I think part of the confusion stems from the fact that the rule seems to not be enforced very often.

To tell the truth, the only thing surprising to me about your story was that anyone even noticed or asked about the fact that you had stayed in the Schengen zone longer than the 90 days.

We're US citizens living in Europe for a year and many expats over here have stories of their residence permits being delayed (bureaucratic backlogs), and then they have to travel for business or family emergencies after they've been here 90 days but before the official permits have arrived. And I don't know anyone that has had any actual problem or even been questioned about the situation. Which is not to say it can't happen. I'm just reporting the experience of various people we know.

It happened to us too. We had to go back to the States after we'd been here 90 days, but before our residence documents had come through. We called various government offices asking what we should do. We were basically told by the government officials here "not to worry about it". It seemed like they were trying to tell us, without actually baldly saying so, that the law isn't really enforced except as a way to get rid of people who are considered undesirable for some other reason. So we traveled back to the States and then back to Europe and no one seemed to notice or care that we had been here longer than 90 days. Now that we do have our residence permits, no one has ever asked to see them. Our passports have been looked at a number of times for various reasons as we've traveled to the States and to various European countries but no one has ever flipped through the pages to see when we first arrived or asked us how long we've been here (9 months at this point).

I'm NOT suggesting anyone should ignore the rules. We've done everything by the book as far as we were able and that would certainly be my advice to anyone else.

I'm just pointing out that the enforcement of this rule seems rather inconsistent, and I don't know what the truth of the matter really is in terms of how seriously the issue is viewed by various governments. It's certainly possible it varies from Schengen country to Schengen country. Ah well, I intend to follow the rules so hopefully it is only of academic interest- but it does make me curious about it all.

Thanks to all for all the information and opinions.

I found out about Schengen here in a very convoluted thread about a couch surfer, which I was reading more for entertainment than information. I wasn't asking for sympathy or claiming ignorance of the law (though I was certainly ignorant about it). I'm very grateful to the Greek border agent who excused me.

When I go somewhere for the first time, I check out requirements; none of my European trips in the past required visas, except when I was in school in one country for more than three months.

I know that visitors to the US are not received graciously at some of our airports, and find that shameful.

Just wasn't clear that all the EU countries (or the Schengen countries, which I thought until today were the same but have now learned are not) tightened up, so that the length of time you used to be able to spend in each has now become the length of time you can spend in all. If I have that more or less right.

First of all can I please make it clear that I'm not getting at colonna or anyone.

Secondly, I understand that all the fuss I created (yes, I KNOW it was self inflicted) over my US visit, is making me take the view that id WE have to go through this to visit the US, then what's sauce for the goose.

Thirdly, and notwithstanding the foregoing, how on earth can anyone travel overseas without checking (even if the foreign country's web site and phone lines give rubbish information- down girl!!).

IF I had not looked in a book or at the US Embassy web site, before I went to Cape Cod in 2007, how would I have known I had to leave within 6 months?

if I'd just pitched up I'd have had that form thing to fill in on the plane, and I'd have had my intimidating interview with the man with no neck at Logan airport, how would I have known (actually I just checked and it IS in the smallprint. Mind you no-one told me so my point stands).

And Schengen wasn't introduced "to make it easier for nationals of countries who needed a visa to get one visa which would be valid in Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, and France.". It was introduced to aid free movement for Schengen Nationals.

Michael, your ECJ case is escaping me. Can you give me a reference please?

And, BTW, you might want to get off your high horse on the exit stuff. No-one here checks to see if short term visa holders have left, and I always tell my overstayers to leave with their fingers crossed. At an educated guess 80% of them get out without the officers noticing

I totally understand what you are saying. My partner and I traveled to Europe for four or five months at a time about 7 times before I ever heard of such a thing -- still not sure if it was in effect then. And we did a couple times after we heard of it too. Nothing ever came up.

And I fully understand your question about not knowing about it or wondering who you were to ask. You'd have to know about to ask about it, and why if you had never heard about such a thing would you expect to ask about it? That's almost like going to a restaurant and their telling you they don't provide silverware -- you are supposed to bring your own -- then scolding you for not calling in advance to find out if silverware would be provided. Why would you have called and suspected anything? Just like why would you have checked on time limits about staying in Europe when you had read a dozen guidebooks, booked tickets with a major outline, and nothing had ever been mentioned about it?

NorCalif writes:
<i>We're US citizens living in Europe for a year and many expats over here have stories of their residence permits being delayed (bureaucratic backlogs), and then they have to travel for business or family emergencies after they've been here 90 days but before the official permits have arrived.</i>

I moved to Germany about 15 years ago. When I went into the city hall ("Rathaus" in German, no kidding) to get my residence permit the clerk took my passport and said I would get the permit in a few weeks. I told her that I needed to travel that week. The permit was issued the next day.

flanneruk writes:
<i>It really does seem as if Schengen's immigration authorities are too arrogant, lazy or incompetent (or probably all three) to do something as simple as design an entry stamp that tells visitors where they stand.</i>

Agree. My two entry stamps at Amsterdam (one is hardly legible) simply show the date and an airplane and Schiphol. The Dutch also give you an exit stamp.

Then I looked for my entry stamp to France in December at CDG Paris. Nothing. I guess they are saving ink. No exit stamp either. And no re-entry stamp from the USA Department of Homeland Security Customs and Border Protection when I returned to Detroit. I'm sure I went to Paris, or was I dreaming Paris? London did not give me an exit stamp so officially I might still be in the UK, except that DoHSCBP in Minneapolis stamped me in when I returned, with the wrong date. There is a place on the stamp where the official can write the validity date next to "until," under a line labeled "class." Foreigners might want to check the info to make sure they don't get caught in a serious jam by mistake.

It looks to me that immigration cops on both sides are as flanneruk describes.

sheila,

Interesting remarks, but it would help if you would say where you live. I assume someplace in Europe.

You write:
<i>And Schengen wasn't introduced "to make it easier for nationals of countries who needed a visa to get one visa which would be valid in Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, and France.". It was introduced to aid free movement for Schengen Nationals.</i>

There was already free movement for Schengen Zone nationals, and holders of European residence permits, prior to Schengen. I lived in Holland for two years in the 70s and drove all over Europe with no trouble. Passport control was in effect, but it was still in effect for years after Schengen. Remember, the European Union is not the same as the Schengen Zone.

spaarne, did the customs swipe your passport (magnetic stripe)?

nancicita,

The USA officer put it into a machine which apparently read the info at the bottom of my picture page.

Great ad thread for the state department's website. Go, click on a country and up pops - entry/exit requirements.

TravMimi,

Yeah, sure. The State Department page titled Schengen Fact Sheet is at http://tinyurl.com/pnvd75. Do you see any mention of the 90 in 180 day rule? Nada, nope, and never will be.

Flanneruk's hypothesis is valid all the way up the chain of command.

I live in the UK.

I know there was some free movement but it was not universal amongst Schngen members, or even uniformly applied. Mind you, it still isn't.

(I practice, amongst other things, immigration law. I know about Schengen:)).

I just don't understand how one can travel abroad without bothering to find out what the visa rules are.

The comment on here I find most remarkable is Otzi's

"So in the future we should be contacting the Lithuanian Law Society of America to read every book in their library prior to visiting"

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. But I would imagine you check the speed limits before driving a car overseas? Why wouldn't you do the same with your visa?

Ummm. I didn't go to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website to find out about visa regs for the US. I went to the US Embassy (more's the pity)

I took a look at the French and Italian embassy websites (for the US), and I have to say, the Schengen restriction is not at all obvious on the French site, and seems to be missing entirely on the Italian site, so the OP has a better excuse than I thought. My apologies!

And I'm still interested in one of the original questions - is there any legal way for a US citizen to spend more than 90 days just traveling in Schengen (i.e. not studying or visiting relatives)?