Manners, etiquette and "when in Rome" etc are one thing, but rules?! It doesn't sound like a holiday if want to travel and be bound by a set of rules to follow.

>It doesn't sound like a holiday if want to travel and be bound by a set of rules to follow.<

These aren't the 10 Commandments, just suggestions for how to get along with the indigenous population.

((I))

LoveItaly: Those were very kind women you had cleaning your house. The thoughtful way they gave you a gift of their care and services after your husband died was so important. It's nice and courteous to try to observe social proscriptions against squeezing the melons at a market, sharing the main course at the restaurant, or twirling pasta the wrong way, without getting too obsessive about it all, but the kind of innate grace and social "perfect pitch" your house cleaners had is so much more important.

I agree - those were very kind women, LoveItaly.

I knew the rule about the bar and the receipt, but I still did it wrong a few times. However, they didn't seem to mind my awkwardness.

I think it's possible that some restaurants were disappointed that I usually only ordered two courses (plus the bread and the wine), but they weren't obvious about it. But really that was all I could manage to eat.

I think it's interesting about these taboos of having the fruit and sweaters touched and so on. I wonder if these originated with knowledge of germs, or are these proscriptions much older than that?

LoveItaly,

Your story about the kindness of your cleaning women brought tears to my eyes, too. I love reading your postings here on Fodors because they reveal the kindness and warmth in your own heart that must bring out the best in others around you. So, thank you for being one of the people who make this forum worth visiting.

And to get back on topic -- I think there is much of that kindness and warmth throughout Italy (probably one reason LoveItaly chose her name!). So while it's good to try to make an effort to know the "rules", as others have said, if you approach people (especially most Italians) in a positive spirit, they will almost always respond in the same way, even if you inadvertently violate one of their social conventions. Their response will almost always be helpful or friendly, not supercilious.

Hi Will,

>I think it's interesting about these taboos of having the fruit and sweaters touched and so on. I wonder if these originated with knowledge of germs, or are these proscriptions much older than that? <

In many (maybe most) European shops the customers don't touch the merchandise. You wait to be waited on.

It keeps the merchandise from becoming shopworn.

Using gloves when in a grocery is rather recent. I think I first heard of it about 2 ears ago. It seems to be a development of more "self-service" shopping.

((I))

Wow, Italy sounds <i>way</i> harder than brewing a good cup of tea. :)

Being italian and living in Italy, I can tell that Rule #1 for every italians, if not their only rule is that...rules are meant to be broken...

Happy Saturday everyone!

And my goodness, I am overwhelmed with all the kind comments. Thank you all.

Mommo, yes I agree with you 100% about the first rule is to break the rules.

That is why my SIL just shakes his head about the new nosmoking law. He strongly feels after a period of time it will be ignored. Except I wonder if it will because the fines are so high that they will bring in lots of revenue for the government. Well, time will tell.

Ira, the plastic glove for touching produce was in effect summer of 1998, at least in northern Italy. Do not know about the south at that time. This was in a US type of supermarket in a small village. I sure was embarresed!

MissPrism, that was quite a story you related. The poor wife. Imagine she was so humiliated. Not a relaxing trip for her I am sure.

And yes, Italians are warm and carrying (always a few exceptions of course).
That is why if one goes there and makes a few mistakes please do not worry about it.

I think the thing I have noticed about first time travelers to Italy is that some feel they have been treated rudely (because the waiter did not bring them the check as soon as they finished the meal etc.) or being ripped off because the paid more for their drink which they had at the table versus what the Italian paid while standing at the bar and drinking it. I wish I had a dollar everytime I have explained to people about the customs. It would buy me a roundtrip ticket to Italy!!

So knowing what to expect does help the travel experience IMHO.

Just start slow and gentle and be polite and interested in Italy and all will be fine.

A Happy weekend to everyone! ((*))

Hi all! Thanks to the other post about the friendliest and rudest cities one has travelled to I just remembered something about Italians in Italy that can be very jarring to Americans.

Italians do not line up! A line is not a known concept. You feel like you are being shoved and pushed etc. Very annoying. But it is the way it is, so don't take it personal. I have gotten very good at joining in (but I still hate it!) ((*))

&gt;Italians do not line up! &lt;

Actually, they do, sorta.

I was standing in line at the MacDonalds at the Naples (I think) train station when a young person came up to me and said, &quot;I was in front of you&quot;.

Since I had seen him come in the door, I knew this was not true.

I said, &quot;Oh, how?&quot;.

He then spoke very rapidly in Italian to the woman in front of me (the person being served) and she turned around and said, &quot;Si, si&quot;.

What the heck, I was on vacation.

((I))

Ira, LOL! I rest my case! ((*))

I have to agree about lines...
We only recently are learning about them. Only few years ago, when going to the post office and having to take care of my personal &quot;money transfers&quot; at the desk,( after having fought helbow to helbow with the others), I used to have one person leaning on my right shoulder, on on the left, and another two or three resting with their arms on the same desk!!! Only few years ago a yellow line appeared few feet behind the &quot;first being served&quot;...and private policy rules with it...
It'll take some time to learn the concept of &quot;line&quot;,..but we're working on it.

francesco_m, if I am in Italy with everyone is a line and no cigaret smoking I will think I am in a different country! I hope dear Italy does not try to improve too much, it will lose all its wonderful charm.

Love your comments by the way, thanks for a good laugh! ((*))

I had an upsetting experience in Italy two years ago--the same experience, but in two different restaurants...one in San Gimignano and another in Florence.

In both cases, while my husband and I were dining, we caught the waiter's attention, and I asked, &quot;Per favore, vorrei un tovagliolo.&quot; I struggled over the word tovagliolo. But managed to get it out. The waiter in SG said, in English, &quot;Just tell me what you want. I can't understand you when you speak that way.&quot; And in Florence, the waiter looked at me as if I had two heads, and I politely repeated the word &quot;tovagliolo&quot;. He would not even pretend to understand me until I used the English word &quot;napkin.&quot;

I ask the Italian woman who ran our hotel if I had used the right word, and asked the right thing, to which she said, &quot;Si, si.&quot; And she was furious that the waiters had given me such rude responses.

It continued to bother me, because I was really wanting to use Italian, and was trying to be as formal and polite as I knew how.

I wondered later if my attempts had been interpreted by the waiters as believing I HAD to use Italian because I didn't believe/assume that THEY knew English. And perhaps, this was considered demeaning on my part.

Has anyone else had a similar situation? Can you think of a reason why I must have been considered rude? I really don't want to have that experience again.

Hmmm, I'm feeling a little queasy about some things I've read here. I can't say that the comments about Italian Americans seem totally unprejudiced. I can't believe that in repeated trips to Italy the only people that can be found misbehaving would be Italian Americans.

I have spent a lot of time in Italy, and I've met nice Italians, and not so nice Italians. Ditto for visiting Italian Americans, Germans, folks from the UK, etc.

I've accompanied business groups and student groups. I have met nice and not so nice people of every ethnic description. Many Italian Americans travel to Italy frequently, myself among them. I try to behave as I most of the people I know do. I have seen native Italians arguing with pther native Italians. Should this somehow be noticed and commented on? I tend to think not.

Did anyone notice that my post got deleted? Someone asked whether any of us had ever pointed out to someone that they were being rude. I said I had, and told a long story about a mess with Alitalia many years ago in the 70s. In the end I told about how a nun had jabbed me with her elbow and pushed ahead of me and I told her in Italian that she should be ashamed of herself. Did anyone notice when it was deleted?

Sorry. I'm confused. I think I posted the story on the wrong thread. Wasn't the discussion about lines on this thread? Here's the story, which I posted on the thread asking about the friendliest and the rudest city.


Author: cmt
Date: 01/15/2005, 06:45 pm
Message: &lt;&lt;When you have been traveling have you ever called someone on their rudeness?&gt;&gt;

Yes, once, and it was a nun. It was the summer that I was 25, and I'd been in Italy for 4 or 5 weeks with a friend. We'd had a great trip, but full of transportation problems, mostly caused by the &quot;scioperi bianchi&quot; of the train employees. We were upset, but not surprised, to find more of same at the airport. The check in line got longer and longer, with no movement. The time for our flight came and went, but there were no answers from Alitalia personnel except not to worry. Finally we were told that our entire plane load would be divided in two--half to fly on British airline and half on Swissair (we were to go on Swissair). One married couple was split up and assigned to different flights--he to British, she to Swissair, prompting the husband to pop his cork and start yelling &quot;Cazzo porco dio!&quot; There was total chaos, until eventually Swissair employees came to the rescue, coldly but incredibly efficiently processing half of us, including giving us all a torough betrween the legs rub-down search in a manner so impersonal (thankfully) that it was as if they were machines handling merchandise. But before our rescue by the Swissair robots, a few fellow passengers had become a bit rough. At one point I was jabbed in the ribs by the elbow of someone who then pushed me roughly aside and squeezed in ahead of me. When I looked to see who the ruffian was who'd done that, it was a nun, in full habit, one of a group of middle aged and elderly Italian nuns. I yelled at her in Italian and told her she should be ashamed of herself acting like that at her age.

I missed the comments saying only Italian Americans behave badly. Maybe they were deleted. I'm Italian American. What happened? Did I twirl my pasta wrong? Squeeze an orange?

I missed the comments saying only Italian Americans behave badly. Maybe they were deleted. I'm Italian American. What happened? Did I twirl my spaghetti the wrong way? Squeeze an orange before I bought it? Say buon giorno instead of buona sera after 4 p.m.?