Rules of Italy
 

This was in a previous post entitled "Rookie Mistakes: Italy".
"Message: Would someone start a thread about rules of Italy, either formal or imformal. I didn't know you shouldn't touch the produce. I didn't know not to look through a stack of sweaters."

I will be in Italy in a few months and also didn't know about these rules. So I am doing as areinert asked in that post and starting a new thread asking for the rules of Italy.

Many grocery stores in Italy have a container with plastic gloves to wear when you pick up vegetables , fruits etc..,

Rule number 2. Sales people frown upon you if you mess around with the merchandises..
They will give you a look that kill:)

When you order a cappuccino or an expresso at the bar/coffee, you must first always pay first for it , then you bring the ticket to the barman, unless of course, you want to sit at a table, then the waiter will take your order.
It will cost you more for the luxury of being served.

Speaking of cappucino and espresso, never order "a latte" unless you like a glass of hot milk. "cafe latte" if you want espresso in it.

A basic one. When you want the bill at the end of a meal ask for it. Hints like, "that was wonderful" or "we're finished" won't get you the bill. You'll still be sitting there as they stack the tables and chairs if you don't ask for it.

I've never seen the plastic gloves, but I'm more used to the idea that you point and they'll pick it up for you.

Yes, the produce. You put on the plastic glove first before touching the produce.

When ordering, if you want to sit at a table you sit. The waiter will take your order. If you just want a cup of espresso or whatever and just want to stand while you have your drink you pay the cashier and take the ticket to the barman as Kismetchimera said. Note: You will pay more to sit at a table so do not think you are getting "ripped off" because you paid more for your drink while sitting at the table then the Italian paid who stood at the counter and had his drink. A commmon tourist mistake.

When going into a shop always approach the salesperson. Let them handle the merchandise unless they indicate you may.

Also, returns on merchandise is not going to happen in Italy as it does in the US. You buy it, it is yours. No going back to the hotel to try the sweater on and deciding you do not like it and so will return it. You are stuck with it.

When you sit down it is considered rude to have your feet in such a manner that the sole of your shoes can be seen by those sitting across from you. I notice that Oprah sits in such a way on her TV show. Considered rude in Italy.

Do not reach across people to shake hands with someone.

Do not use the word "ciao" to people unless they are family or close friends.

Italians (especially in the north) are more formal.

Most (not all) but lets say some hotels want you to turn your hotel room key into the desk anytime you leave the hotel. Then you retrive it when you return to the hotel.

Tipping is not like in the US. Use the search box on Fodors to read a lot of threads and post on this.

When you are dining, or even having a drink (at a table) the waiter will not bring you the check. They consider that rude. You are not being ignored. You ask for the check when you are ready to pay and leave the premises. The table is yours as long as you want. No rushing you out as in the US.

If you travel by train be sure to validate your train ticket at the little yellow box in the train station before getting on the train.

When writing a figure out such as $10.00 you will write $10,00.

The Italians use the comma where we use the period and visaversa (not with their language but with the math).

Will you be driving a rental car? If so keep in mind that the far left lane (if there is one) is for passing. It is not for constantly driving in. And if you do drive and a driver comes up behind you blinking his headlights it means he wants you to pull over to the slower lane so he can pass.

Getting drunk is not considered the thing to do in Italy. I do not mean to infere it is considered the thing to do in any country but I have seen so many tourist (especially younger ones in groups) drunk, yelling as they go down the street etc. Not a good thing.

And just in case you smoke. All in door smoking and ceased in Italy as of January 10th of this year. And evidently they are serious about it. Still find that hard to believe but at first that is the way it seems to be.

Smoking outside and in private homes of course is permitted or if any restaurant/cafe etc. has a totally enclosed room with proper air ventallation.

Am sure you know the dress codes for the Vatican and the churces.

OK, there has to be more, LOL. Anyone else who can contribute???

Ktyson, don't be alarmed or overwhelmed. In my opinion, and I have been to Italy so many times since the 1970's Italians are warm, hospitable, and well mannered. And they basically really like Americans. Most of them have had family that at one time or another have immigrated to America.

I think when most tourist feel rebuffed is when they just don't use perhaps a bit more of a formal manner approac as we have here in the US. And of course beautiful Italy is use to tourist so nothing shocks or surprises them. But a gentle manner, consideration etc. will take you a long way in making your trip very enjoyable.

And in spite of many saying "they don't speak English" don't kid yourself. They do understand enough to know when tourist are making unpleasant remarks about their country, food, service, shop, etc. Best to do the complaining in the privacy of your hotel room.

My husband and I had a code word if we were shopping and one decided the item wasn't of good quality or overpriced etc. We merely said to the other one quietly of course "KMart".

And do ask your hotel for suggestions, ideas, help, info etc. Most Italians are so proud of their country and really want you to have a wonderful trip. Don't forget, a big industry in Italy is tourism.

I am sure many others will post here.

Just go and have a beautiful and wonderful time. I still think the first trip to Italy is the most exciting of all! ((*))

There are at least two threads on this topic. Maybe we can find them.

The produce and the plastic gloves. This will be in shops and supermarkets. At the farmers market yes just point and the clerk will bag whatever you want like Patrick said. Sorry I did not explain that correctly. Unless you rent an apartment you probably won't ever be buying produce in a store.

cmt - two threads? Sometimes in this past 30 minutes Fordors has been acting up a bit. Nothing serious.

Do you know the title of the other thread? Or do you mean that ktyson posted the same thread twice? Take care.

On the subject of coffee ... Italians never order a cappuccino after about 11 am. Since so many tourists do ask for them in the afternoon or evening, they will serve you, but you will be considered a clueless tourist who doesn't know the Italian rules of coffee drinking. Espresso only for afternoon and evening is the Italian way.

Also, the way others have described that you pay for coffee is also often true in gelaterias -- you pay first for the size you want and then take the check to get your gelato.

LoveItaly: There were at least two or three threads, maybe more, that were mainly about Italian etiquette and customs that a tourist might or might not want to follow. I think they started out as something other than etiquette threads but they became that. They were not really recent, but not ancient either. They may be from 2004, and maybe were active during the spring or summer. They may have started out as threads on drinking tap water vs. bottle water and about whether one must drink wine, but they eneded up being about many other things. I wish I could remember the titles. This search function is so bad that even if I remember some key words, I will not necessarily turn up the threads.

Maybe there were no such threads. I must've dreamt it. But here are some threads that touch on what ktyson wants, I think:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34540990

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34528522

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34440795

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34422455

cmt, I came onto Fodors early 2004 and I do remember what you are talking about but sure do not remember the thread. Bet it started out as one discussion and than vaulted into Italian life styles etc. Sure cannot think of what thread that was.

I would imagine there are a whole lot of other "rules" that we here in America do not know about in Italy no matter how much we think we do. Unless we are from Italy.

My SIL was born and raised in Italy. Sometimes I question him about this very subject but he is such a gentleman that he doesn't really answer my questions to much. He just says "oh, you know how to be in Italy mama". Dolce!

A funny thing I have noticed is that I have a lot of friends that are ethnic Italians born and raised here in California. They have less concern it seems to me about how to act in Italy than the posters here on Fodors. I think this is why I enjoy the posters on Fodors, they want to do the polite thing as well as getting the most enjoyment they can out of their vacation.

LoveItaly: I've been pondering some etiquette issues lately. (Yes, too much time on my hands this week, but it won't last.) I do think sometimes people get far too concerned about little niceties or about embarrassing themselves by failing to follow the local custom re something like the procedure for ordering meals or the usage of utensils. Yet, do the same people sometimes fail to show concern for the really big things that are a matter of basic decency and kindness, and not just little technical social customs? Example of what I consider a big thing: doing something, anything, when a friend or co-worker or neighbor has a death in the family. Doing nothing, to me, is unforgivable, and not just a little breach of etiquette. Yet I have a feeling sometimes that the people who fret over committing a little faux pas that might earn a dirty look from a waiter might sometimes be the ones who neglect to act with very basic, and traditional, kindness and decency in these more important situations.

(What brought this on?)

You know, I'd always heard that rule about cappucino being for mornings only. Well, two weeks ago I was visiting an Italian friend in Torino and we went to a caffe in the afternoon. Guess what he ordered? Yep, a cappucino. So, I mentioned the "rule" and he said 1) People do mostly drink cappucino in the morning, but he'd never learned that there was some kind of rigid rule about it; and 2) He didn't really care, because he wanted a cappucino. Maybe there's a lesson in there, somewhere.

Are there similar etiquette or customs regarding tea or chocolate? Any such thing as herbal (no caffeine) tea, or would I be considered just completely bizarre for asking?

Hello!

Don't forget - don't ask for parmesan to be sprinkled on anything involving seafood....they won't do it (no matter how much you beg) :)

Melodie

cmt, your post is quite interesting to me because I have often thought the same thing.

I responded to ktyson question of course because ktyson sincerely wanted to know. And as you know each country has their customs that may differ from another area or country.

But in answer to your question. I am not sure it is etiquette but it is human empathy and kindness you are referring to. And I think that transcends all cultrual differences.

For example, when I lost my DH, a week later after the family had gone home the cleaning service I had (four beautiful women from the Philippines) arrived at my door. With flowers, with a bottle of wine. And they insisted that I would go take a nap after they changed the bedding. And they would clean the house as a "gift" to me. And one of them went in and drew me a hot bubble bath. And then when I crawled into bed they all stood my my bed and said a prayer. And then gently and quietly cleaned my house and would not let me pay a penny. To this day this brings tears to my eyes.

I know have a neighbor who is a retired waitress. High school graduate buy not overly educated. Sometimes even has a hard time pronouncing words properly (not often but occassionally). She has the most beautiful three children (as a divorced mom she raised them on her own) and wonderful special grandchildren. This neighbor is like an angel. I got ill this spring, food poisoning or virus we will never know. She came over and took care of me until my daughter (who was not home when she got the call) came over and I was taken to emergency.

This dear neighbor brings me over homemade donuts, stew, etc. We share a pot of coffee and discuss our childhoods, our family etc. She is so full of love and care and yet smart as a whip in her own way.

Yes cmt you are in my opinion (and I do not feel humble about this opinion) are correct that some people are so worried about the little mistakes they may make and who they may annoy but at the same time do not think of the big picture.

I think, but maybe I did not do a proper job, that is what I was really trying to say about anyone travelling to another area.

Consideration, politness etc. is noticed by everyone.

And when people reach out to each other in time of need (or even when there is not a need but just out of care) how much better the world would be.

My dear, having a bit of time on ones hands is IMHO a good thing. I always need that from time to time and actually took it today as I had some stress this week.

Maybe part of the problem in our society
today is that none of us have enough "time on our hands". To think about the most important aspects of life as you obviously did today. We all need more quiet time, to reflect on the past, to learn from it and to hopefully make tomorrow better by our actions. Maybe in doing so we can inspire others to do so also? I don't know, but I sure hope so.

I sure wish you a beautiful weekend ((*))

When you purchase produce in a market you weigh it yourself in the produce section and then press a button showing what item it is and a slip of glued paper comes out which you stick on the bag. It states what the item is and the weight.

You bag your own groceries and pay a few cents for the bag.

If you order from a bar you cannot take your drink and sit at a table. If you are going to sit at a table you must order from that table.

In a bakery the same theory applies as at the bar, you choose, pay and then pick it up.

If you forget to stamp your bus ticket at the door you will get fined if the agent boards the bus and checks tickets. You will have to pay the fine on the spot.

I was interested in the comment about American ethnic Italians. I have been going to Italy for many years and the only two cases of real unpleasantness I've seen have involved people from that group. The first was a man who got very angry when a shop refused an obsolete banknote. He reduced the assistant to tears and was chased from the shop.
The other involved an elderly man who was having a dreadful row with officials on Lake Garda. He had bought the wrong ticket and insisted that they were ripping him off. We talked to his wife who was getting very upset. She said that he was originally from Naples and that people were refusing to understand his Italian. I think that his combination of American and southern Italian may not have been an advantage either.
What was rather amusing was the attitude to his wife. At one point the old boy stormed off the boat to check with officials on the shore. The men on the boat kept coming up to her, patting her shoulder and promising that her husband would return and that they wouldn't go without him. She, poor soul spoke no Italian so I had to translate.
When the silly old ??? finally returned, one of the boatmen pattered the wife on the shoulder and told her that she had his deepest sympathy. Nobody translated that bit;-)

>Are there similar etiquette or customs regarding tea or chocolate?

You may drink, coffee, tea, chocolate or whatever any time of day.

>Any such thing as herbal (no caffeine) tea, or would I be considered just completely bizarre for asking?<

We found decaffinated coffee (day cafay) at all coffee shops, but no decaff tea.

There were some places that served herbal tea.

Another "rule"; when you walk into a shop, etc say "Buon giorno" or "Buona sera" as appropriate.

Ira,

Your post reminded me that when you leave a shop, it's also considered polite to say, "Good-by", or "Arrividerci" (depending on the language you were using).

Manners, etiquette and "when in Rome" etc are one thing, but rules?! It doesn't sound like a holiday if want to travel and be bound by a set of rules to follow.

>It doesn't sound like a holiday if want to travel and be bound by a set of rules to follow.<

These aren't the 10 Commandments, just suggestions for how to get along with the indigenous population.

((I))

LoveItaly: Those were very kind women you had cleaning your house. The thoughtful way they gave you a gift of their care and services after your husband died was so important. It's nice and courteous to try to observe social proscriptions against squeezing the melons at a market, sharing the main course at the restaurant, or twirling pasta the wrong way, without getting too obsessive about it all, but the kind of innate grace and social "perfect pitch" your house cleaners had is so much more important.

I agree - those were very kind women, LoveItaly.

I knew the rule about the bar and the receipt, but I still did it wrong a few times. However, they didn't seem to mind my awkwardness.

I think it's possible that some restaurants were disappointed that I usually only ordered two courses (plus the bread and the wine), but they weren't obvious about it. But really that was all I could manage to eat.

I think it's interesting about these taboos of having the fruit and sweaters touched and so on. I wonder if these originated with knowledge of germs, or are these proscriptions much older than that?

LoveItaly,

Your story about the kindness of your cleaning women brought tears to my eyes, too. I love reading your postings here on Fodors because they reveal the kindness and warmth in your own heart that must bring out the best in others around you. So, thank you for being one of the people who make this forum worth visiting.

And to get back on topic -- I think there is much of that kindness and warmth throughout Italy (probably one reason LoveItaly chose her name!). So while it's good to try to make an effort to know the "rules", as others have said, if you approach people (especially most Italians) in a positive spirit, they will almost always respond in the same way, even if you inadvertently violate one of their social conventions. Their response will almost always be helpful or friendly, not supercilious.

Hi Will,

>I think it's interesting about these taboos of having the fruit and sweaters touched and so on. I wonder if these originated with knowledge of germs, or are these proscriptions much older than that? <

In many (maybe most) European shops the customers don't touch the merchandise. You wait to be waited on.

It keeps the merchandise from becoming shopworn.

Using gloves when in a grocery is rather recent. I think I first heard of it about 2 ears ago. It seems to be a development of more "self-service" shopping.

((I))

Wow, Italy sounds <i>way</i> harder than brewing a good cup of tea. :)

Being italian and living in Italy, I can tell that Rule #1 for every italians, if not their only rule is that...rules are meant to be broken...

Happy Saturday everyone!

And my goodness, I am overwhelmed with all the kind comments. Thank you all.

Mommo, yes I agree with you 100% about the first rule is to break the rules.

That is why my SIL just shakes his head about the new nosmoking law. He strongly feels after a period of time it will be ignored. Except I wonder if it will because the fines are so high that they will bring in lots of revenue for the government. Well, time will tell.

Ira, the plastic glove for touching produce was in effect summer of 1998, at least in northern Italy. Do not know about the south at that time. This was in a US type of supermarket in a small village. I sure was embarresed!

MissPrism, that was quite a story you related. The poor wife. Imagine she was so humiliated. Not a relaxing trip for her I am sure.

And yes, Italians are warm and carrying (always a few exceptions of course).
That is why if one goes there and makes a few mistakes please do not worry about it.

I think the thing I have noticed about first time travelers to Italy is that some feel they have been treated rudely (because the waiter did not bring them the check as soon as they finished the meal etc.) or being ripped off because the paid more for their drink which they had at the table versus what the Italian paid while standing at the bar and drinking it. I wish I had a dollar everytime I have explained to people about the customs. It would buy me a roundtrip ticket to Italy!!

So knowing what to expect does help the travel experience IMHO.

Just start slow and gentle and be polite and interested in Italy and all will be fine.

A Happy weekend to everyone! ((*))

Hi all! Thanks to the other post about the friendliest and rudest cities one has travelled to I just remembered something about Italians in Italy that can be very jarring to Americans.

Italians do not line up! A line is not a known concept. You feel like you are being shoved and pushed etc. Very annoying. But it is the way it is, so don't take it personal. I have gotten very good at joining in (but I still hate it!) ((*))

&gt;Italians do not line up! &lt;

Actually, they do, sorta.

I was standing in line at the MacDonalds at the Naples (I think) train station when a young person came up to me and said, &quot;I was in front of you&quot;.

Since I had seen him come in the door, I knew this was not true.

I said, &quot;Oh, how?&quot;.

He then spoke very rapidly in Italian to the woman in front of me (the person being served) and she turned around and said, &quot;Si, si&quot;.

What the heck, I was on vacation.

((I))

Ira, LOL! I rest my case! ((*))

I have to agree about lines...
We only recently are learning about them. Only few years ago, when going to the post office and having to take care of my personal &quot;money transfers&quot; at the desk,( after having fought helbow to helbow with the others), I used to have one person leaning on my right shoulder, on on the left, and another two or three resting with their arms on the same desk!!! Only few years ago a yellow line appeared few feet behind the &quot;first being served&quot;...and private policy rules with it...
It'll take some time to learn the concept of &quot;line&quot;,..but we're working on it.

francesco_m, if I am in Italy with everyone is a line and no cigaret smoking I will think I am in a different country! I hope dear Italy does not try to improve too much, it will lose all its wonderful charm.

Love your comments by the way, thanks for a good laugh! ((*))

I had an upsetting experience in Italy two years ago--the same experience, but in two different restaurants...one in San Gimignano and another in Florence.

In both cases, while my husband and I were dining, we caught the waiter's attention, and I asked, &quot;Per favore, vorrei un tovagliolo.&quot; I struggled over the word tovagliolo. But managed to get it out. The waiter in SG said, in English, &quot;Just tell me what you want. I can't understand you when you speak that way.&quot; And in Florence, the waiter looked at me as if I had two heads, and I politely repeated the word &quot;tovagliolo&quot;. He would not even pretend to understand me until I used the English word &quot;napkin.&quot;

I ask the Italian woman who ran our hotel if I had used the right word, and asked the right thing, to which she said, &quot;Si, si.&quot; And she was furious that the waiters had given me such rude responses.

It continued to bother me, because I was really wanting to use Italian, and was trying to be as formal and polite as I knew how.

I wondered later if my attempts had been interpreted by the waiters as believing I HAD to use Italian because I didn't believe/assume that THEY knew English. And perhaps, this was considered demeaning on my part.

Has anyone else had a similar situation? Can you think of a reason why I must have been considered rude? I really don't want to have that experience again.

Hmmm, I'm feeling a little queasy about some things I've read here. I can't say that the comments about Italian Americans seem totally unprejudiced. I can't believe that in repeated trips to Italy the only people that can be found misbehaving would be Italian Americans.

I have spent a lot of time in Italy, and I've met nice Italians, and not so nice Italians. Ditto for visiting Italian Americans, Germans, folks from the UK, etc.

I've accompanied business groups and student groups. I have met nice and not so nice people of every ethnic description. Many Italian Americans travel to Italy frequently, myself among them. I try to behave as I most of the people I know do. I have seen native Italians arguing with pther native Italians. Should this somehow be noticed and commented on? I tend to think not.

Did anyone notice that my post got deleted? Someone asked whether any of us had ever pointed out to someone that they were being rude. I said I had, and told a long story about a mess with Alitalia many years ago in the 70s. In the end I told about how a nun had jabbed me with her elbow and pushed ahead of me and I told her in Italian that she should be ashamed of herself. Did anyone notice when it was deleted?

Sorry. I'm confused. I think I posted the story on the wrong thread. Wasn't the discussion about lines on this thread? Here's the story, which I posted on the thread asking about the friendliest and the rudest city.


Author: cmt
Date: 01/15/2005, 06:45 pm
Message: &lt;&lt;When you have been traveling have you ever called someone on their rudeness?&gt;&gt;

Yes, once, and it was a nun. It was the summer that I was 25, and I'd been in Italy for 4 or 5 weeks with a friend. We'd had a great trip, but full of transportation problems, mostly caused by the &quot;scioperi bianchi&quot; of the train employees. We were upset, but not surprised, to find more of same at the airport. The check in line got longer and longer, with no movement. The time for our flight came and went, but there were no answers from Alitalia personnel except not to worry. Finally we were told that our entire plane load would be divided in two--half to fly on British airline and half on Swissair (we were to go on Swissair). One married couple was split up and assigned to different flights--he to British, she to Swissair, prompting the husband to pop his cork and start yelling &quot;Cazzo porco dio!&quot; There was total chaos, until eventually Swissair employees came to the rescue, coldly but incredibly efficiently processing half of us, including giving us all a torough betrween the legs rub-down search in a manner so impersonal (thankfully) that it was as if they were machines handling merchandise. But before our rescue by the Swissair robots, a few fellow passengers had become a bit rough. At one point I was jabbed in the ribs by the elbow of someone who then pushed me roughly aside and squeezed in ahead of me. When I looked to see who the ruffian was who'd done that, it was a nun, in full habit, one of a group of middle aged and elderly Italian nuns. I yelled at her in Italian and told her she should be ashamed of herself acting like that at her age.

I missed the comments saying only Italian Americans behave badly. Maybe they were deleted. I'm Italian American. What happened? Did I twirl my pasta wrong? Squeeze an orange?

I missed the comments saying only Italian Americans behave badly. Maybe they were deleted. I'm Italian American. What happened? Did I twirl my spaghetti the wrong way? Squeeze an orange before I bought it? Say buon giorno instead of buona sera after 4 p.m.?