|
Refusing dynamic currency conversion
Do you know if it is true that some credit card machines can charge only in dollars if they recognize that the card-issuing bank is American? Or is this a bluff on the part of the business where you are charging? I am thinking of refusing to sign a slip in dollars and refusing to pay cash and telling the business to call the police if they don't like it. Am I nuts? I just can't stand being taken advantage of.
|
Personally I would refuse to sign and furthermore I would refuse to buy anything from that merchant. (Well, unless I'm paying for dinner--it might be tough to return the food. In that case I would pay cash.) But I would NOT call the police. Dynamic Currency Conversion is unethical and probably a violation of Visa's rules, but I doubt it's a criminal offense.
|
To be in compliance with visa (and probably mastercard) regulations, you must be given the choice to pay in local currency and as a matter of fact the sales slip you are asked to sign says something to the effect that you were offered the chance to pay in local currency and you choose to pay in your currency (we'll say USD but it could be AUD or CAD or in Ireland GBP) and your choice of currency is final.
From what I have read on the web sites of the credit card processors pushing this scam, the terminal asks before completing the transaction if the customer wishes to pay in USD (if that's the currency of the card) and clerks apparently have been instructed without asking to press yes and to hope the customer doesn't read the slip and if the customer is wise to this scam to use such phrases, as we have seen, that the USD amount shown is just an approximation, that the rate is an excellent rate, that the terminal will not process the transaction in local currency, that it is too late and the transaction ha been completed and cannot be voided. Now the queston is whether the clerk believes or is simply passing along what he or she has been told to say. I ran into this 4 times during a recent trip to Scotland. In the first case, the clerk admitted she had been told not to ask but simply to press yes. The chief cashier came over and gave me the lies indicated above. Finally the manager came over, grudgingly admitted I was right, credited (not voided) the original transaction and ran it in sterling making a comment such as, "Oh these Americans." The second time it happened, I asked the clerk before the transaction not to pull this scam. She claimed she had no control over it but I told her to press no when the question came up and lo and behold, the slip was printed in sterling. She said she never knew this was an option. Occasion number 3, once again, I asked the transaction be written up in sterling. Again I got the answer it was done automatically and she had no control over it and the transaction came up with the dynamic currency conversion scam applied. I said she should void the transaction and re-do it properly. She said she couldn't do it. I asked for the manager who came over and immediately said no problem, credited the fraudulent transaction and ran the transaction in sterling. The clerk asked him how he had done this and he said to her, "Just say no when it asks if the customer desires to be charged in his currency." The next customer on line did the same thing and he started to make a face. At the fourth location, I forgot to say run the transaction and of course it came out in USD. I said no, I don't choose to pay in USD and again it was the same set of lies. The manager came over and I said why are you pulling this crap. You know you are required to give the customer the choice and are committing fraud when you press the yes button. She said every customer wants to save money and besides it would be more expensive for me (Ha ha) to pay in sterling as my credit card company would apply fees to the conversion. Whether she believed that or had been told to say that by the credit card processors I don't know but she again credited the original transaction and then properly ran it in sterling. Now the story here is that all this took place in Scotland and at least there was no language problem. I wonder what would have happened if this garbage were being pulled in Italy, where it is becoming a large problem or in Spain where there would have been a language problem. But the bottom line is: 1. You must be given your choice as to whether you wish to be ripped off by the dcc scam. 2. The terminal does ask the clerk if the customer wishes to be ripped off by dcc before the transaction is completed. 3. Every transaction if not able to be voided can be credited back and written up properly. I have written to British consumer affairs regarding this scam and indicated it is their responsibility to either have the clerk ask the customer whether he or she wishes to have dcc applied to the transaction or put up a sign indicating the transaction will be written up in the cardholder's currency at the following rates and listing the rates unless the customer requests otherwise. I have yet to get an answer back from them regarding this. |
But isn't answering the question on the terminal that the customer wishes to be charged in USD without asking kind of fraud which is criminal behaviour?
|
"(Well, unless I'm paying for dinner--it might be tough to return the food. . ."
Ah hah! I think P_M has at last thought of a way to really get their attention! Might make them think twice before pulling that scam again! And xyz, I like your style: "2. The terminal does ask the clerk if the customer wishes to be ripped off by dcc before the transaction is completed." I can see it now right on the terminal. "Does the customer wish to be ripped off? Press 1 for yes, press 2 for no." |
P_M -- Actually, I wasn't suggesting that I would call the police on them, but rather that they could call the police on me to try to force me to sign the draft. But it sounds as if persistency and knowing how the system operates will be sufficient.
|
and perhaps the longer it takes to rectify, the louder one's voice becomes...
|
I raised this issue on these and tripadvisor forums in July '04: I refused to pay in USDs and told them to call the police as I was more than happy to pay in GPBs and tip reasonably well - they very humbly brought me the CC "voucher" in GBPs without an argument.
M |
Someone that pulled this scam would get no tip at all from me.
Keith |
We leave for France in a few weeks and I found this info extremely valuable. I went to Visa's web site
(http://www.corporate.visa.com/pd/con..._faq.jsp)where they say, "Visa requires that you are provided a meaningful choice at the point of sale and you have the right to buy your purchase in the local currency." I'm taking a copy of this with me and thanks. Jerry |
The good news for you is that the dcc scam for the most part is not taking place in France; at least I have yet to encounter it in France.
Biggest places it is taking place are Ireland and Italy. Growing problem in Scotland and other parts of the UK as well as Spain. |
As I've posted elsewhere, I called Bank of America before I left to ask how they wanted me to deal with this. The service rep was outraged at the audacity of a foreign proprieter to pull this, and he did indeed suggest I call the police. However, he wanted me to talk to the fraud department for more specifics, and that fraud rep was a total waste of my time.
I sent a detailed email to the card company today of the two establishments I knew that tried that on us in Ireland. I'm sure I could have reported 20 more--we just didn't want to get in a fight and we paid in cash throughout the rest of the country. I may not have wanted to do the "fistfight" on vacation; I am very willing to follow through at home right now. I think that all American BankCards need to be agressive and send out a fraud alert with steps each citizen should follow. |
If you can get an email address for any restaurant or business that tries this on you, I'd also suggest you come back here and make a post telling everyone to avoid this place as they tried to cheat you. Then email that thread to them. The sooner these places find out they can get in trouble for doing what they're doing and it might even hurt business, the sooner they'll quit it.
|
First, ask to have the charge re-done in local. If the merchant refuses, write this on the charge slip <i>where it can't be torn off</i>:
<b>LOCAL CURRENCY NOT OFFERED</b> Then sign the charge and dispute it when your bill comes. The merchant will have to produce the signature document with your note on it, the credit card company will debit the merchant for the difference and credit it to your account. The whole thing will be such a hassle for the merchant that he might change to local just to avoid it. DO NOT settle in cash - this is playing into the merchant's hands, because he will avoid the credit card discount points. |
I think Robespierre has hit the nail on the head with that last statement of his.
It's always been a sort of thorn in the side of businesses to have to pay a couple percent from each sale for accepting a credit card. This Dynamic Currency scam is a good way for them to reverse that expense. And if it makes the unwary person pay in cash, so much the better. They still save that couple of percent if they had taken a credit card. Don't play into their hands. |
I was in UK and Scotland this summer for 23 days. I saw this happen to a customer in front of me, and decided to pay my bill in cash. I have basically quit using cc in europe. I take a debit card, and have used it in UK, Scotland, Wales, Italy, Belgium and Spain with no problem. The only cc charges that I made were to hotels which did not try the scam. My debit card charges me 2.00 per transaction to get money, which I think is fair. I take 400 to 600 dollars out at a time and when I run low, do it again. That way, if I am pickpocketed, I do not loose my whole roll. Plus,with small purchases, cash can get you a discount if you are willing to barter in some countries.
|
Heading to England for 2 weeks in just a few days and putting on my battle gear in preparation for this. I'll report back in October.
|
If anyone checks back in on this subject - I'm curious if, prior to being presented with the bill by a certain proprietor, would it make sense to ask/direct that the bill be calculated in the local currency? I realize that some may still try to hand you their pack of lies but possibly w/ others, they'll realize they are dealing w/ someone informed on the subject and will opt to avoid a potential argument.We will be traveling to Italy in June and I'm even thinking of emailing the hotels that I have reserved, including Hotel Duomo in Orvieto, and asking the question if they practice "dynamic currency conversion". I like the idea of being able to use my credit card as that is a way, and lately the main vehicle, I have of accruing airline miles. Appreciate any additional comments.
|
You hit on the problem; these usually are low level clers and they do what they are told. In many cases, they claim they have no control over the terminal and of course in Italy there would be a language problem.
|
Checking into a high end hotel in Dublin couple of days ago I was asked if I would like to settle my final bill in US$ or Euro$? I told the clerk that Euro$ was the ONLY option I will agree with. So far so good, but it's not over till that little slip gets printed. The "information bill" slipped under the door this morning is in Euro$.
I always watch the CC slip during the final check out as I did have an instance, and it was here in Dublin couple of months ago, where the CC slip was printed in US$. The clerk either played it good or he really didn't know what I was talking about when I refused to sign it. Only after a brief and friendly conversation with the front desk manager was I presented with the CC slip in Euro$. So maybe they are getting the message. Hopefully I will be presented with a Euro$ CC slip in couple of hours and there won't be any need to "have a talk" Heading home today :-) |
What is euro$????
Euro dollars exist on the international monetary exchange but not in every day life. The name of the currency is the euro and the plural of the name of the currency is euro like "It cost 50 euro." |
wow, get a life!!!
|
AA...
What would you say to some well meaning European who came into your shop or whatever and asked how many dollar€ does this cost? You would simply find him ill informed and correct him...now it is very rare for a European to come into the US and not know the name of the currency is the dollar and that something costs 25 dollars and I doubt extremely if anybody would say 25 dollar euros so I always find it strange when Americans call the European currency the eurodollar and I've seen it happen quite often. As far as the plural thing is concerned, it alwahys good to be correctly informed. Before the euro, you wouldn't say something cost 15,000 liras or if you go to Japan you don't say something cost 5,000 yens so please don't take it personally or as an attack on you, just trying to help. |
Thanks AA!
Keith |
Hi xyz,
"No good deed goes unpunished". ((I)) |
The plural isn't "euro" in a few countries.
From the euro website: http://europa.eu.int/comm/economy_fi...pelling_en.pdf |
When I was in Italy in September, I ran into the DCC especially in Venice and Florence. I didn't run into it all in Tuscany, and by the time I got to Rome, I was tired of worrying about it and paid cash for everything except the hotel.
Several times in Venice and Florence, even though I specified I wanted to be charged in Euro and they agreed, the slip still came through with US$ shown. They insisted this was just for information purposes. Of course, I knew this wasn't true and insisted they change it. I got the usual story that it couldn't be changed. In every single case, it was obvious that the clerk didn't know anything about it, but the manager always knew exactly what I was talking about it and credited the US$ and did it in Euro. You do have to be insistent! |
<i>Don't pay cash!!</i>
The only way we're going to erase this scourge from the face of the earth is to stand up for our rights. When you pay cash, the merchant couldn't be happier. First of all, he doesn't have to book the transaction, which makes it possible to evade taxation, and second, he doesn't have to pay the card issuer its discount points. Merchants have to pay 1-5% (depending on volume and average ticket size) to their processor, but when you pay cash they don't - the difference goes directly to their bottom line. Stand your ground. The more merchants know that consumers are aware of their rights, the more likely they are to give up at the first resistance. Write this above your signature: <b><font color="blue">CHOICE OF LOCAL CURRENCY NOT OFFERED</font></b> and you will be putting the merchant on notice that you are aware that he has violated his Merchant Agreement, and that you intend to dispute the charge when the bill comes. If they're smart, they'll rerun the transaction in local, thereby saving themselves the trouble of responding to the dispute and having the sale back-charged anyway. |
Robespierre, I know you're right, but I just got tired of having to be vigilant! I was there to enjoy Italy, not to police their charging practices.
|
the problem I'm seeing with this is if you don't make your case right away and they charge you in US dollars and you make them change it... it could tie up your money.
If I'm checking out of a hotel and have spent $300 US dollars on the room, they pull the scam and you force them to change it to local currency, you may have tied up the credited 300 dollars for 5 to 7 business days and may not have access to it. Yeah, it's wrong, yeah, its a pain, and yeah, you're getting jipped... but I'd much rather have most of my money to enjoy my vacation rather than being forced with NSF issues back home. I'm on vacation! I'm willing to spend $7.00 dollars on a stupid hotdog or whatever... if you ask up front and insist on local currency and it dosen't happen, (for me) oh well, they got me and its off to the next leg of my vacation! I'm not willing to tie up my money on a $5.00 scam. but thats just me. |
Er, you were going to pay the $300 bill anyway. So all that's "suspensed" (to use the accounting term) is the amount of the Dynamic Currency Conversion rip-off.
In your example, if the difference between the bank's and DCC's rate is 5%, then $15 is all that will be tied up by disputing the charge. And as I have said, the more we do this, the less likely the merchants will be to try it - if they learn that they will always lose, what would motivate them to continue trying? |
It just occurred to me that if you're talking about a <i>credit</i> card, then you actually benefit by bouncing a charge, because you don't have to pay it until the final amount is calculated by the card issuer deducting the DCC charge.
[Exercise: diagram the above sentence.] |
Thank you everyone for your input. I feel I have a much better handle on the subject and am better equipped to deal with the situation should the need arise.
|
Can anyone suggest useful words/phrases/sentences to make sure we're not unfairly charged? I'm going to Spain in March, so I'm most interested in Spanish, but I'd appreciate know what to say in any language.
|
Robspierre, leaving aside the Dynamic Currency Coversion issue, can ask why you feel it is incumbent upon us "foreigners" to make sure the "locals" pay their taxes? Is that your only argument against paying cash?
I'm a small merchant in the US and I'm THRILLED when folks pay cash. It doesn't mean I don't report it to Uncle Sam, it just means that 2% of my bottom line doesn't go to some megacorporation. |
boklady, read my post again.
I never said I cared whether any furrin' merchant pays his taxes or not. I <i>did</i> say that they like cash for that reason in addition to the other one. |
booklady...
Then why do you take credit cards???? And isn't the 2% you charge incorporated as a business expense ultimately in the prices you charge including the price of maintaining a bank account, of doing your sales tax report, of everything else? |
Golly, robespierre, didn't realize that accidentally misspelling a name around here was such a sin.
My apologies. And I read your post again. (thanks for the tip). Still seems to be an implication that" we" should do what we can to keep "them" on the path of righteous taxation. Or maybe I'm just infurrin' it. |
xyz123, of course I take them. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
|
Robespierre, if the merchant does not reverse the charges and charge in local currency, how do you calculate how much to dispute with your card company? Does the card company know how to calculate the difference easily? Just curious how this would work practically (if you had to go so far as to dispute). Thanks.
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:34 PM. |