No. What "we" should do is to make "them" keep their agreement with their card processor - because it benefits "US."

BinC, you can calculate what the bill <i>should</i> have been by going to

<b>http://www.xe.com/ccc</b>

Robespierre, my question was not about the dynamic currency conversion or whether the merchants who try to force it are perpetrating fraud.

I was asking whether your &quot;Don't pay cash&quot; was a blanket statement. That is all. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Perhaps I should have said &quot;don't let a merchant force you to pay cash by running a DCC scam on you.&quot;

Paper or plastic - whichever is more convenient for &quot;you.&quot;

My attitude is this...when I'm on holiday I use my credit cards for everything everywhere they are taken for any amount no matter how small or large...as noted when a merchant takes credit cards the commission is reflected in the price structure so in effect whether I use acredit card or not I am paying for it.....

In the US, there are two mportant protections for us in the agreements merchants sign with mc/visa. The first is the merchants may not establish a minimum for use of a credit card. The second is a merchant may not surcharge for use of a credit card.

Unfortunately these rules do not exist in other countries such as the UK and sometimes I run into problems when merchants insist on &pound;5 minimums for use of a card. I find that to be reprehensible myself.

Robespierre.. I just called my bank and there is no doubt.. If they run your debit or credit card for anything, the bank automatically releases that amount to the company you are buying from. If for some reason (20 seconds later) you are not happy with the purchase and they credit back to the account, it can take 5 to 7 business days for that ENTIRE amount to credit back to the account...

but I agree with you, it needs to stop.

You bank is in error. Transfer of funds does not take place until &quot;settlement time&quot; (typically just after midnight local time).

Nothing happens at &quot;authorization time&quot; except that your available balance is reduced - and it's restored in 48 hours if the transaction doesn't settle in the interim.

Hmmm..

ok. good luck with that.

you still might want to call your bank and ask.

myself, I'd rather have my money available to spend instead of tied up (even for a day) waiting to be credited back to the account.

I have 2 banks (typical bank and a credit union) and they said the same thing. if you charge something to a credit card and you are not happy and want it credited back to the account, my bank said 5 to 7 BUSINESS days (excluding weekends and holidays) my credit union said 3 to 5 days. 10 day vacation with my money tied up for 3 to 7 of those? I dont think so. i'll eat the charges.

Happy Travels

This characterizes one of the key differences between using a debit card or a credit card.

Some people use an expression like &quot;I use my debit card as a credit card&quot; namely they make purchases using a debit card. Well as soon as the purchase gets authorized, the amount is debited from the available funds. Yes it could cause a check outstanding to bounce if the amount of the check is greater than the available balance.

Now with a credit card, it is indeed conceivable that the authorization will decrease available credit to the point that future authorizations will not be allowed but most people have plenty to spare in their credit lines and that rarely is a problem.

Personally, I don't understand using a debit card for purchases. The money is immediately subtracted from your account and you lose a lot of the leverage in case of a dispute you have with a credit card where you get a float anyway.

JMHO

BTW, during checkout I was asked if I wanted the charge in US$ or <b>EURO$</b>? :-D

I told the young lady.... <b>EURO$</b> and within seconds I was signing a charge for <b>EURO$</b>!

This reminds me of another regular around here that had problems when other posters had questions about Eastern Europe and &quot;oh my god&quot; they were asking about Czech Rep or Poland??? That's NOT Eastern Europe, he would argue over and over again......

We all know that geographically it's not, but we are on a travel board... talking in general terms.....

Poland = Eastern Europe
Euro$ or Euro

Who cares?

I believe most if not all get the meaning? Correct me if I'm wrong.

&quot;..as soon as the purchase gets authorized, the amount is debited from the available funds. Yes it could cause a check outstanding to bounce if the amount of the check is greater than the available balance...&quot;

not if one keeps track...:)

So AA, and I'm not trying to be mean or nasty or anything like that, the clerk said euro$? Maybe she was saying this because others had said it? Or because her English wasn't all that good?

But in all seriousness, and again not trying to be argumentative with you or put you down or anything like that, I have heard Americans much too often refer to the currency as eurodollars...I just really don't understand where they get that from...perhaps the idiot currency &quot;experts&quot; they deal with in banks.

As I said I have met Americans making their first trip to Europe being told things like.

1. You don't need local currencies in Europe (or anyplace else in the world for that matter)...everybody will take US dollars and as a matter of fact they are all too happy to have them.

2. They use euro in England.

3. And of course the eurodollar bit I suppose.

But please accept my apology if you think I was being nasty or putting you down.

I was just trying to help people be &quot;politically correct.&quot;

Regards

&lt;you lose a lot of the leverage in case of a dispute you have with a credit card&gt;

Debit cards that carry the Visa brand (and I suspect other credit card brands) carry very similar buyer protections to traditional credit cards.

Just an FYI.

<b>xyz123</b>,

perhaps I was little harsh in my reply as well, and for that I apologize.

I'm sitting in my hotel room in Boston right now, watching BBC News. Guess what?

The BBC financial reporter CLEARLY said Euro<b>S</b>. Not saying that it makes it correct, but the timing of the report makes it very funny, (in my favor of course :-D ).

xyz, while eurodollar isn't the correct term for this thread, it is a legitimate term and that is perhaps why some Americans use it:

Go to:
http://www.investorwords.com/1764/Eurodollar.html
and
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/eurodollar.asp

Actually, I've read the report referred to earlier about the plural of euro..

Essentially what it says is that while the proper plural of euro is euro, they will have no objection if English speaking countries using the euro (there is only 1 right now namely Ireland) add the &quot;s&quot;...me I always wish to be correct so I tend to say euro like in 50 euro...it will be interesting to see how the BBC handles this when the UK is finally forced to bite the bullet and adopt the euro!

Regards,

I think I alluded that to my original response which set off all the alarm bells...eurodollars is a term used in international commerce to the best of my knowledge but is completely different from the currency called the euro.

I still believe the biggest part of the problem, if indeed it is a problem, is the stupidity of the people in local branches of American banks who handle currency for travellers. In America, unlike Europe, currency transactions are not an everyday occurance at banks. And they give out so much mis-information as I noted so it is hardly the fault of the first time visitor to make these errors. They just can't comprehend that different countries use completely different currencies.

I still think you're over-reacting just a tad....everyone seems very tense recently on this board, have all the Christmas bills suddenly come in?
In small American towns, where bank staff have VERY little to do with foreign currency (they don't get bombarded with offers to jet off to cheap beach or mountain holidays in foreign countries), the reference to eurodollar is usually either a slip of the tongue or lack of training. I think it's harsh to rant about &quot;stupidity.&quot;

She was clearly talking about the tourists spending Euro<b>S</b>, not about international monetary, banking exchanges.

Now it's about time you let go of this issue. I tried to be apologetic about my original reply, but you keep on pushing it....

What is your problem? I practically live in Europe about 3 months out of a year and I have heard MANY locals say EURO<b>S</b>.

Just let it go.....

How much money are we talking about here being ripped off per transaction? Is it a percentage? Sorry so late in the game.

how much money you lose when you allow yourself to be scammed by dcc depends on your credit card's policy regarding foreign currency fees.

Most dcc scams use 5% above the interbank rate as their rate...almost all American credit cards charge 3% above interbank (1% by visa/mc and 2% in their greedy profit motive)..there are credit cards that only pass along the 1% visa/mc charge and one credit card, Capital One, actually uses the interbank rate and eats the 1% mc/visa rate. So if you use a capital one credit card and allow them to pull the dcc garbage, you're out 5%...so a hotel stay which costs you $300 after conversion using capital one credit cards, costs you $315 when the merchant uses dcc on you.

&quot;Most dcc scams use 5% above the interbank rate as their rate...&quot;

I had no idea there was such &quot;regularity&quot; to these so-called &quot;scams.&quot; Did all the scammers have a meeting and decide that 5% would be the right amount?????

You should inform the scammers that you will report them to Visa (or Mastercard etc.)who will consider refusing to deal with them.
Committing fraud and claiming that Visa
are forcing you to do it will not go down well.
Doesn't Visa find it strange that certain establishments are doing DDC for almost all transactions with foreigners?
If they cant control this daft scheme it should be scrapped.

I'm just using the figure I seemed to be charged in Ireland last April when on several occasions they had to credit the original charge and on my statement I saw both amounts.

You are right, there is no general rule but remember the purpose of dcc is to make money (surprise, surprise) for both the credit card processor and the merchant so that all has to become part of the price.

I find it interesting to note how vendors sell the Dynamic Currency Conversion to the merchant. If you were to Google &quot;Dynamic Currency Conversion,&quot; you will see many, many websites with phrases such as &quot;Offer your customer the convenience of...&quot;.

Regards,
Charles

&quot;Debit cards that carry the Visa brand (and I suspect other credit card brands) carry very similar buyer protections to traditional credit cards.&quot;
Your protection is up to your local bank. My VISA dept card was charged fraudulently for $1,100.

It took nearly 6 weeks and repeated phone calls and trips to the bank to get the money deposited back in my account.

Keith

Interesting Charles! I followed your tip and found this on PlanetPayment's web site (Note: this is from a press release, so it's NOT violating copyright):

By Philip Beck, CEO,
Long Beach, New York, January 9, 2006 -- Welcome to Planet Payment&reg;! As one of the world’s leading providers of multi-currency processing services, Planet Payment is committed to addressing the key issues and opportunities facing our industry today.
In that spirit, I’d like to take this opportunity to briefly address the issue of cardholder choice as a component of the DCC experience. As Planet Payment sees it, giving the international customer the choice of whether to pay in his home currency or in the merchant’s currency is absolutely critical if DCC is to attain the full measure of acceptance and enjoyment that it should. Allow me to elaborate:
First, when customers are offered DCC as a real choice by an educated merchant, they quickly see its key benefits, namely the certainty and convenience of paying in the currency they truly understand – their own – and may opt in. Conversely, forcing a customer to accept DCC creates the impression that DCC is something less than the valuable service it is. That’s a great disservice, considering the benefits of DCC easily stand on their own merits.
Second, merchants benefit from the customer service “wow” that comes from offering choice. International customers feel more welcome at merchants who let them know their currency is accepted, and they shop at those merchants – even the customers who don’t choose DCC!
Finally, cardholder agreement to DCC is a requirement of both Visa and MasterCard, and it’s non-negotiable that all DCC transactions must be compliant.
Planet Payment offers its DCC to merchants who are committed to offering their international customers real choice, and we encourage everyone associated with the industry to follow the same rigorous standards. Finally, I invite everyone who has tried DCC to share their experiences with me so we at Planet Payment can make our service as valuable to international travelers as possible.

(On that note: perhaps everyone who'se experience the &quot;joy&quot; of DCC can write the company...contact info is on their web site www.planetpayment.com.)

Interesting that while in the PR section, PP touts the customer benefits of DCC, on its merchant services section it clearly notes that DCC allows merchants to &quot;earn additional revenue on existing transaction...&quot; and calls DCC a &quot;a powerful tool that will dramatically impact the bottom line – both by closing more international sales and earning a commission on each DCC transaction.&quot;

Anyway, that's a DCC vendor's view...doesn't quite jibe with the Fodorite view, does it?

Wow BT. What an interesting post. Planet Payment's statement, &quot;That’s a great disservice, considering the benefits of DCC easily stand on their own merits&quot; is dumbfounding. Did you catch those &quot;benefits&quot;?
Also, xyz123: Thanks for helping to understand the actual $$ amount. To be sure I understand - If, after conversion, I have a $300. hotel bill ( which would include the 3% conversion charge ), I would be looking at probably an additional 5% on top of that, that representing the dcc?

If you're using a cc that charges 3%, you would probably only pay 2% if my 5% figure is correct so it would cost you $6 for the joy of the benefits dcc provide to you.