Planning a One Year European Adventure
 

Concept: Take early retirement and spend at least year in Europe living in England, Holland, France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Italy.

Personal Background: mid-fifties couple in good health and physically fit with prior experience with independent travel to Europe.

Interests: history, art, photography, cooking, meeting new people and learning new customs, poking around markets, museums, churches, department/food stores, and hiking. Like to picnic and eat at moderate restaurants ($10-20 per person without wine).

Assumptions: Use public transportation most of the time, but occasionally rent a car. Arrive in Europe in April and leave in Nov. Move from north (England) to south (Italy). Will have $8,000 a month to spend in Europe.

Courses of Action: Thinking about the options listed below, but are open to modifications and other ideas.

Option A: Stay in apartments for a month at a time in London, Amsterdam, Paris, Heidelberg, Prague, Florence and Rome. Take daytrips to see small towns and enjoy the countryside.

Option B: Stay in hotels for one to two weeks at a time in the large cities in Option A, but also add additional “regional” cities in each Option A country.

Option C: Stay for a month in an apartment in some cities and for a week or two in hotels in other cities.

Concerns: Having enough money to cover our expenses. Becoming bored if we stay for a month at each location. Becoming “burnt out”. Knowing how much time is required to plan such an undertaking.

We would appreciate feedback from people who have done something similar or are kicking around such an idea. Looking for recommendations on hotels/apartments, planning resources, ways to cut expenses and pace ourselves, and fun things to do.

I just had posters regret - half of me says reduce the number of places we could visit and the other half says add more!

I think option A sounds like a dream. I bet you'll be amazed at how fast the year goes.

Hi NorthShore. Where do you live? If in Europe I think your plan is workable. But if you live in the US are you aware that you can only stay in Europe for 90 days without a visa?

As often happens LoveItaly beat me to it(!) my first question was about what kind of paperwork is needed to stay in Europe for an entire year. Clearly you'd need more than the 90 days typically allowed tourists.

I know I would not get bored myself, it would be a dream come true. But for me to avoid burnout, staying in fewer places for a longer period of time would be more interesting and suit my personality.

LoveItaly, OMG - I thought it was 90 days in each country. I must start a detailed planning checklist!

My idea for you would be to find the "center of gravity", more or less equidistant to all your desired destinations. Somewhere in mid-Europe.

Then find an attractive spot near to that "center" that would afford you easy access to air and rail transportation in any direction.

Then search for a location where you can rent an economical apartment and thereby set up a home-away-from-home.

If you rent apartments I believe an $8000/month budget is generous. Should it prove tight once you are underway, simply staying put in one place and poking around there, cooling it on daytrips, and using hotels sparingly could easily stretch those funds even further.

Hi NorthShore, didn't mean to bust your bubble! But gather you are an American citizen from your last comment. No, it is not 90 days in each European country. It is 90 days total unless you have a special visa. I am not all that up on how you get that but you need to do some very indepth investigations for sure.

Personally I would love to spend a year in Europe so I sure understand your dream.

May I also suggest that you talk to your accountant (tax situation etc. although since it does not sound like you will be working in Europe that will probably not be a problem).

Please let us know how your venture goes - I am sure there are other's here on Fodor's that have the same idea you do. And my very best wishes to you with your venture.

P.S. Hey Suze, sometimes you are ahead of me, LOL ;;)

I thought maybe we could rent small apartments for $2500 to $3000 a month in Paris and Rome. A friend suggested staying outside the city and taking the subway in each day, but I'm afraid that would get old. Still, it might be worth it if the rent were considerable cheaper.

Not for me it wouldn't (be worth it to stay in the outskirts). I'd rather rent a smaller place or stay a shorter time then have to commute on my vacation!

This is a special situation which allows us to do this big adventure.

We plan to downsize by selling our house, getting rid of lots of furniture, china, and garage stuff, store the "can't part with' items and giving our old clunker to charity.

We hope to assume a simple life and focus on doing things instead of having things.

I think you're on the right track. We went to Europe for five months when we first retired. We traveled a whole lot -- mainly on a three month Eurrail pass and mostly did a lot of three night stops. We started in Scandinavia for about 6 weeks, worked our way through Netherlands, Germany, Prague, Vienna, Salzburg, Switzerland, and then ended in Paris.

Since that time we've gotten into a habit of more one week stays and more recently have started renting apartments. You're right that such moves will save you money.

But we've never regretted covering so much ground on our first big European trip. It gave us a lot of places we knew we'd want to return to and we have. Although we had been on a couple of two week trips to Europe, we were hardly what you'd call experienced European travelers.

Bored? On that trip as we were heading home we asked each other "are you ready to go home?" and we answered each other, "NO!"

The concern about 90 day stay is unwarranted. UK and Czech Rep. are not part of the Shengen visa agreement, so if the OP plans it right there will be no problems. On the other hand, US requires their citizens to report back home for at least 1 night every 6 or 9 months (not sure about that), so the OP should look into it before disappearing for a year.

I could be totally wrong on both issues.

Have a great and safe 4th!!!

Thanks, I think I can overcome the visa issue.

What other areas should I be concerned about?

Hello NorthShore, your idea is beautiful and as I said earlier I sure understand your dream. May I suggest that you do some good and serious investigating about this venture before you make any definate plans. I am sure you will.

People here, including me, can tell you what they "think they know" but you need hard cold facts. I know for a fact that I cannot legally stay in Italy for over 90 days. But you have a whole different situation. So take the time and check everything out. And my best wishes to you.

Go for it! Get some good maps and learn the train system.

I'd pick option C. One month in London, Paris, Prague and Rome. Two week stays in Amsterdam, Florence,
Vienna.

I'll think about it some more and give you some suggestions on daytrips a little later.

Ask underhill about the south of france.

Concerns? Having too much fun and overstaying your visa!

Visas for Europe? That is news to me! Given that most of the time when you land in Europe nobody looks at or stamps your passport, how would they tell how long you have been there? I travel on an Australian passport, and it has been about 20 years since I had to get a visa for France (it was the only European country requiring one). Maybe it is different for people travelling on an American passport?

Hi Nicol, for American citizens we are legally allowed to stay for a maximum of 90 days in Italy or other countries in the Shengan (or however you spell it) countries. Otherwise we are suppose to legally get a visa. I am not sure about the UK etc.

If you're American or Australian, you can stay in the Schengen area without a visa for only 90 days in any 180 unless you also carry a passport of an EU nation. You can stay in the UK (which keeps out of xenophobic cartels like this Schengen nonsense) for six months without a visa, and subsequent re-entry is generally given automatically unless you look as if you're trying to live here forever.

So in a year, you can stay visa-free in the Schengen area for only 180 days. Unless you want to spend all the other 185 in Britain and Czech, you need to get an extended-stay visa for Schengen. You have to apply for this at the embassy or consulate of the country you're planning to spend most time in - in your case apparently Italy.

If the Italians give you a year's visa (and you need to talk to the Italian diplomats about that, not posters on this board), you'll normally be able to travel unmolested to the other Schengen countries for the whole of that period.

Don't be misled by people telling you their passports are never looked at. It really is virtually impossible to get into the Schengen area without your passport being examined - though for a small fee, I'll tell you about the unpatrolled hiking routes between Switzerland and Italy - and it's absolutely impossible to evade passport examination if arriving from outside the area by air, Eurostar or channel ferry.

I think you should get all the legal, visa etc. things taken care of first. Then things like your arrangements for money transfers, or whatever you plan for that. Then, what about medical insurance. Be sure that you have coverage for Europe. Lots of little, but very important things to consider, other than just travel!
Locations, will depend somewhat on your personal likes...if you prefer being in big cities, or some smaller areas with access to the larger ones. You mention that you may or may no have a car full time. A lot of things to check out!

First of All North Shore, I'm sure all these technicalities can be overcome, I have even sent employees over to europe without the correct paperwork and they all came back fine, from one country to the next, back and forth. If you think for a minute entering through UK and then going to Spain and Italy and then leaving Paris that all these countries have such a unified system your dreaming. I'm not saying to do something illegal, all I'm saying is that if I could send employees over for a year then if you at least try for extended visas and use maybe side trips to Non-euro countries you'll be fine.

But what I really wanted to say was that first of all what a dream trip, most of us save all year for two weeks. Congrats go for it!

Secondly call me boring if I had ayear to spend in europe I would pick a hub, probably in Spain in a smaller town, maybe outside of Pamplona or Zaragoza or even San Sebastien, but a small town because the prices for nice hotels in these tiny towns can be less than the rent of an appartment.

These hotels are seldom used outside of fiesta time and make for great secure central spots which are so cheap that if you keep it while your touring say germany you wont mind, also I find rural Spain the most reasonble area.

My wife and I have seen most of southern europe this way and we love, although I have to say it was work not play that always brought me to europe.

aaaaaaahhhhh SPAIN i MMMiiissss YYoouu

Regarding that 90 day limit, we have stayed in Europe four to five months a number of times. Since we usually start in the UK, we are still well over 90 days in the Schengen countries, generally.
I'm not sure what Nicol means about not stamping passports. That may be true from country to country in Europe, but they ALWAYS stamp my passport when first landing in Europe. And when returning to the US, they still ask how long we've been gone. When I say five months, the guy nearly always says "that's great, I'm jealous" or something to that effect. If there is a law about being gone too long, none of the officials I've run into have ever been even the least bit concerned with it.

Regarding costs, don't forget much of your every day living expenses usually spent at home can be incorporated into your travel fund. We usually estimate about $10,000 a month for European travel for everything, but that doesn't mean we need to come up with that much "extra" as at home we'd often be spending nearly half of that anyway on everything from entertainment, to gasoline, to food, to cleaning services, to utilities that get cut way down when we're gone. And of course, a great financial advantage would be letting or subletting your house or apartment fof the year you're gone. You may also cancel your car insurance for a year, or even sell your car and buy new when you return -- why be making a year's worth of car payments on a car you're not using?

There are a lot of things to look for. Double check or add a rider for your health insurance if not covered in Europe. Bill paying is easy these days with internet.

I'll start off my first post of this - - Independence Day, 2005 - - by casting a vote against this whole plan.

Curmudgeonly? Yes. But my vote will be one that is cast in the spirit of American independence.

This plan of NorthShore's is (or could be) a decision to become relatively more <u><i>dependent</i></u> later in life. Presumably, NorthShore and partner have 30 or more years to live. And it sounds like they are planning to divest their net worth by a substantial fraction, drawn at least in part by the desire &quot;to assume a simple life and focus on doing things instead of having things.&quot;

While no one will argue... with reducing the addiction to &quot;having things&quot; that is rampantly epidemic in our country, I don't think that it should (or has to) mean... abandoning the important <u>job</u> of <u>accumulating, and <i>stewarding <b>capital</b></i></u> (in every sense of the word &quot;capital&quot; - - it includes not just money, but many other fungible things in life, including employability).

This country consists, for all practical purposes, of two kinds of people - - those who create wealth, and those who are (partly or entirely) dependent on those who create wealth. One group is not better than the other. We all start life in the &quot;dependent&quot; class, and most people finish ther lives in it. Those who never move out of it, for whatever reason, are no less American than those who &quot;succeed&quot; in (or luck out, or are drawn to) the greatest wealth creation.

But I am apprehensive about the future of my children's generation, the followers of the baby boom generation...

... that we, the sons and daughters of the &quot;greatest generation&quot; are drifting distinctly in the direction of becoming the &quot;lousiest generation&quot; by saying, &quot;I don't care about remaining in the class of wealth generators one day longer than I need to&quot; - - I have &quot;paid in&quot; and I'm entitled to become a &quot;recipient&quot; as soon as I think I'm ready.

Yet there are legions of us fifty-somethings that can't see the difference between the 15-20 years (or in some cases, 0-30) of &quot;life after work&quot;, that our parents' world <i>planned for</i> and <i>anticipated</i>...

...versus the <i><b>25-50</b></i> years we are all <u>failing</u> to foresee. Moreover, I am worn out, almost daily, by the expectation that at a certain age in life - - those younger than us... should happily shell out 2, 5 or 10 years of (average annual) income to the &quot;medical-industrial complex&quot; in America (it's not just doctors, it's a ballooning segment of the American eceonomy and way of life)... to gain one more birthday.

So, I have nothing but the best of wishes for &quot;the NorthShore&quot;s. I'll bet, that if I met them, I would say that &quot;these people are as far removed from being slackers as you can get&quot;. No doubt, they will return from Europe &quot;richer&quot; people... in their appreciation of so much of the ways that the world works... a better understanding of the human condition... past, present and future. They're probably very smart people who will make this next transition in life wisely - - not only for themselves, but likewise for their friends and loved ones, fellow citizens, across the street and around the world. I hope they would understand that this little essay of mine is not a &quot;putdown&quot; of their plans.

But I hope that Europe travel is <u>one</u> piece of their puzzle-building for the next year and decade. They could divest themselves of all kinds of &quot;things&quot;... and travel abroad for 30, 90 or 365 days - - and still have a net worth at the end of 2006 that is larger than it is today.

I hope they will do what's right for them... and for a kid down the street, and a kid across the oceans.

Look at the big picture - - that's all I'm saying. And maybe that means spending Q2 2006 in France, Q3 2007 in Italy, Q4 2008 in Thailand, and Q1 2015 in Namibia.

Have a happy Independence Day, everyone... and...

Best wishes,

Rex

Great info:

<b>http://travel.state.gov/travel/living/residing/residing_1235.html</b>


According to the info I was wrong about the US required &quot;checkin&quot; every so often.

Anyway, the official US Dept. of State site does provide great deal of information.

To Rex, after reading and rereading that post several times I can basically only say one thing:

Hogwash!

Having abandoned or at least modifying our plan of &quot;accumulating&quot; and &quot;planning for the future&quot;, when my partner and I retired (I was 49 at the time, he was 65), I can't think that we did anything but what was best for us -- referring to that 5 month &quot;spending a lot&quot; trip to Europe, and one each year since then.

Now, some 10 years later, we are faced with his early onset of Alzheimer's. We can still travel this year, and hopefully next (at least I'm forging ahead with plans for a two month possible &quot;last grand hurrah&quot; in Europe next summer), but I wouldn't give up one ounce of what we've accomplished with our travels to backtrack and reduce our travel experiences for the sake of worrying about or even planning for the future. The future is too unknown a territory to worry about. I offer that from my own personal experiences.

When we retired we sold and moved from a house that would now be worth nearly 3 million dollars to a condo worth a very small fraction of that. Should we have stayed in that house while it skyrocketed in value and given up our extensive travel to support living there? Sure, we'd be better off financially now if we had, but who cares? I gladly trade in that &quot;real estate wealth&quot; for our travel memories instead.

With my business associations with a lot of wealthy retirees here in Naples, I've seen over and over again the people who put off their travels or their life dreams while worrying about &quot;preparing&quot; for the future only to be faced with various health or other issues which resulted in the prevention of ever realizing those dreams. I see others who attempt to travel, but are reduced to cruises or low mobility tours as they are now too old and/or infirmed to do the kind of active travel that we enjoy. Let them sit in their beautiful condos or retirement villas &quot;enjoying&quot; their accumulated wealth that mostly will go to their grandchildren. I'll happily sit in my home with my memories thank you.

Hey, North Shore -- do what your heart wants. Who knows what tomorrow may bring?

By the way, while Lee's memory starts to fade in many odd and bizare ways, when we talk about returning to Rome or Madrid or wherever, I can tell he really can't quite remember which is which. We pull out one of our photo journals and suddenly he is transported back in time. With unbelievable clarity one look at a picture of a street in Madrid starts him rolling about a specific incident that took place there. Or a picture of a gelato stand in Venice has him remembering what flavor he liked best that he got there! One look at a picture of a bleak road, and he can recall our getting lost driving in Turkey and stopping in the middle of nowhere to wait for a car and ask for directions.

There is no way to put a price on those memories.

Patrick, What a poignant journey you are on. My prayers are with you.

Patrick...

I can only reply, that on another day, given a different kind of thread, I might easily have written an &quot;essay&quot; with a point of view close to 180 degrees the other direction. Indeed, I ask people all the time &quot;what are you waiting for?&quot; when I hear that they need to &quot;make hay&quot; now, with plans to enjoy it &quot;later&quot;.

I do think that NorthShore will be well served by advice to think about the big picture of the next 12 months, the next 120 and many more beyond that.

I revel in the many wonderful experiences you and Lee have had in the past decade, and I hope that the coming decade is filled with much great promise in every sense of the word.

Not to change the subject... but is there is a commonly accepted use of the term &quot;early onset of Alzheimer's&quot;? If Lee was 65 years old, over a decade ago, I don't think that this is the same way the medical profession uses the term (onset before age 55?)

Thank you all for the inputs. They really have made us think deeply about our dream and why we are really going to act upon it.

I think Patrick got to the heart of the issue - we want active travel while we still have the health, energy and mobility to fully enjoy it.

We have had friends and relatives who saved and saved all thier lives only to drop dead from a heart attack or have sudden back or hip problems relegate them to cruises or low mobility guided bus trips.

Regarding making contributions to society; we worked hard for over forty years to put ourselves through college, raise three kids and send them to college, support our church, support our country (20 years military service) and do volunteer work for charity. We have no debt, have never been arrested or cheated anyone.

Could we have done more? Yes, but we don't feel selfish or guilty about our contributions.

Regarding building capital: we have 9,000 being generated from interest in investment accounts. We will only spend 8,000 in europe and re-invest 1,000 so we end up with a larger net worth at the end of the adventure.
We are downsizing to reduce expenses and free up funds to travel.

Sorry about going on and on. I don't normally feel the need to justify our actions.

NorthShore...

I whole-heartedly agree with Patrick!!
I'm with you!! My husband died last September. We traveled so very much..skiing in Europe and often in Banff. He had strokes a year apart, and how his face would light up with mention of some of the places where we had been together!

We had &quot;down-sized&quot; prior to his first stroke, which had been previously decided to do when we were down to one dog, from 3 dogs. We &quot;lost&quot; 2 dogs just prior to a trip that I had to Paris. While in Paris I was making the downsizing plans in my mind. Upon returning home, it was accomplished..fortunately the first looker bought our house. The timing was perfect as my husbands first stroke was 3 months later. He was able to return home after 2 1/2 months and could use a walker and navigated quite well for almost a year before the next stroke sent him to the hospital, with the fatal one 2 days later, and his death 3 days following that.
I had a trip planned for a rental in Villefranche-sur-Mer 3 weeks later..I went..good therapy for me! I spent a weekend in my beloved Alpilles, at Riboto de Taven. I rented an apt. in the Costa del Sol for a month in Jan..did much of southern Spain and Portugal. I have rented a charming place east of Paris on the edge of Champagne country for the last half of Sept. and have also rented a place in the Dordogne for 2 weeks in Oct. of 2006, with several additional days in the Basque country.
I will continue to travel as long as I feel the interest is there..the flights are the worst part of it.
Follow your dream..get your ducks in a row for the necessary things to do it without problems, and then decide where you want to go. Those are decisions that only you can make..you can receive lots of help along the way from all on this site...if that is what you want to do, then do it!!
Enjoy..............

And I didn't mean to make you feel defensive. It sounds like you have admirably done the big job of thinking about &quot;the big picture of the next 12 months, the next 120 and many more beyond that.&quot;

Re-reading your original post, I do have a question that puzzles me...

&lt;&lt;Arrive in Europe in April and leave in Nov.&gt;&gt;

Are you hoping to spend 7 months in Europe? or 19?

As I read more about your planning process, I'll be eager to offer advice on specific questions, for which I think I have some answers to offer.

I have been following this thread and just have to say to NorthShore, I think it is an extremely desireable and well conceived plan. And having it become a reality will be a fantastic life changing (or life affirming might be better words) experience for you both.

Every trip I have ever taken started out as a crazy whim or day dream, which I then made happen. And your plan is much more grounded then that(!) so I wish you safe, successful, happy travels in the near future.

I think that $ 2,500 to $ 3,000 a month is quite a &quot;generous&quot; budget for a Paris apartment. FYI, a pied-&agrave;-terre here would go for &euro; 600-800, depending on the neighbourhood. Of course there is the &quot;temporary&quot; factor, but if you keep the place for a whole month, you'll be able to negotiate down, I would think. And re Rex's bizarre socio-economic ranting, let's not be judgmental, and let our NorthShore friends do what they want and can afford to do. They seem like curious, open minded people, thinking outside the box, and, as far as I am concerned, I am all ready to help them on the French leg of their odissey.

I grew up around lazy, no-good slackers and have a bunch of worthless slacker relatives now trying to bleed me dry of my hard earned capital!

Northshore is no slacker! No, sir. not by any measure.

I do like Rex's recommendation to do a series of 90 trips, perhaps to see if you really are cut out for extended stays. That way you could plan it easier and hit the road faster.

PS. Will you invest my capital? Sounds like you know what you are doing!

Thanks Patrick.

My thoughts of a similar plan were somewhat shaken by previous posts. I look at it this way. I have worked very hard for 40 years. I have brought up two wonderful sons by myself. I have been around to help with their education. They are now on their way to enjoy their own lives. I look around and all I see is a house that is too large for my needs.

I traveled a great deal to Europe and South America when I was young. I never stopped traveling, I just limited my vacations to the US to the extent that I could afford.

I am in my late fifties. I feel I still have a lot of living (travel) to do. Of course, as luck would have it, my health is beginning to deteriorate. I know my arthritis will not get any better no matter what I do. So, I don’t think I need to wait till I can feel complete secure in my finances. I may not have as much secure income (not $8000.00 per month) but I think I can easily pick up and go without hesitation. After I have satisfied that nagging travel hunger, I feel I can come home and settle into a small apartment or condo near my loved ones.

In an effort to stay within immigration regulations, you do have more options than just the UK and the Czech Republic, once your 90 days in Schengen is up. I'm not sure what the rules are for other EU but non-Schengen countries (Norway, the Baltic States, Hungary, etc.) but it's worth finding out.

I would also try to do the most northern countries in the summer, and southern in the winter, but that's no doubt self-evident.

Rex, it will only be 8 months (april-nov). We thought about an entire year, but were afraid that the cold, wet weather might be too depressing. We might follow the sun by going to Mexico or doing a series of cruises out of Florida. No offense taken.

Art - thank you for the offer of help with the planning in france. I will post specific questions once I digest things a bit. It is good to know our Paris housing costs might be much lower then we first expected.

Degas - I have your Paris walks all bookmarked. I'd love to get your daytrip recommendations. Best of luck on your medical treatment. Hope you stay safe and get back to the Mainland very soon.

Patrick &amp; suze- I value your advice and appreciate the encouragement.

My apologies for one slip of the keyboard. I have no idea why I used the term &quot;early onset of Alzheimer's&quot;. What I meant to say, and always do is &quot;early Alzheimer's&quot; meaning the onset of the disease is in its early stages&quot;. Lee has worried about the disease for a long time as his father died with it some 15 years ago. Although I've seen signs for a couple years, Lee was not diagnosed with it until this past year, at age 74 -- hardly an &quot;early onset&quot; -- you are so right, Rex. I also use the term &quot;we have Alzheimer's&quot; -- and we truly go through this disease together. A person does not suffer with Alzheimer's alone if he has anyone at all close to him. We have a strong and loving support group of friends. And we also keep our sense of humor. Lee says, &quot;you pick where we go next year. It doesn't make any difference to me since I probably won't remember where we are anyway.&quot; And I think the &quot;funniest&quot; thing of all is that one word he can never remember is &quot;Alzheimer's&quot;. He frequently stops in conversation to ask, &quot;what is that thing I have again?&quot;

Thanks for the clarification and additional info. All the more reason to wish you both... a good number... of <i>good</i> years together.