Thanks Maribel. I agree with you that my heart is set on Pedraza... and you are not confusing me...

I am thinking that if possible, I will rent a car for a day from Madrid (somewhere outside the city) and drive down to Pedraza for a day... :-)

Good to know that Toledo is served by AVE as well...so that should not be a problem if we leave for it early in the morning and come back to Madrid late at night...

Could you please point me to where on your website you talk about dealing with Renfe tickets? Thanks so much for your help...

At the very top, to the right of the logo where it says "Buying Renfe Tickets on-line".

vibhav,
Remember that Pedraza is up northwest of Madrid. The simplest way to reach it is to take the superhighway A-1 (towards Burgos) to the N 110 exit at Santo Tomé del Puerto-Villarejo. Then follow the N 110 WEST as far as Matabuena. At Matabuena go NORTH on the SG-V 2511 about 5 km.

Get exact driving instructions from
www.viamichelin.com

vibhav,
My Toledo guide is now back up on my web page to help you in your planning.

Vibhav I would leave Pedraza for another time....
Part of the appeal is staying there at the Hospederia de Santo Domingo.

Just my thoughts.

I think Segovia is marvelous & you will love it there. So much easier for you to take the train under the circumstances.

Spain has alot to offer.
Sometimes it's more than just a particular city....

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35125162

amsdon,
I loved that thread that you started on Spain's gifts.

vibhav,
The 3 of us (amsdon, escrunchy and I) have extolled the virtues and beauty of Pedraza so much here on the Forum that we may have romanticized it a bit too much for first timers to Spain. It's really small, and I'd hate for you to rent a car and drive the 90 minutes just to see it on a weekday and find everything closed in Dec. tight as a drum.

I so agree with amsdon that part of the magic of Pedraza is to spend the night at the exquisite Hospedería in a beautifully decorated room facing the valley with storks nests literally right in front of your private balcony.

Segovia, as amsdon rightly says, is so easy now to reach by high speed train (leaving from the Chamartín rather than Atocha station), then city bus (info on that in my Segovia guide). It makes it a very easy day trip from Madrid, and it's one of Spain's very most beguiling cities-a Unesco World Heritage Site-that shouldn't be missed. If you really want to make that excursion to the northwest, for first timers, I must say that Segovia, the capital, should come before Pedraza.
amsdon, as always, makes an excellent point.

You flatter me Maribel, thank you.
Vihav, I completely agree.

You guys are funny... :-) The thing is my wife and I are both very fond of small places instead of bigger ones...so leaving out Pedraza is slightly difficult for us knowing that it is a charming small town... :-)

So, My wife and I decided, based on your advise, to alter the plan slightly... What we are going to do is stay a day short in Madrid upfront and come back to Madrid a day earlier at the end...Then keep Pedraza for the last day...stay near the airport...and if the weather is good, everything else is fine, we will drive down to Pedraza...otherwise savor Madrid for another day before we fly back...

Maribel...Thanks for the Toledo information... I will download and read if thoroughly...

Here is the revised itinerary:

12/13/2008 Fly out
12/14/2008 Reach Madrid (5 nights) - Acclimitize
12/15/2008 Madrid
12/16/2008 Day Trip Segovia (AVE)
12/17/2008 Madrid
12/18/2008 Day trip to Toledo (AVE)
12/19/2008 AVE via Cordoba to Sevilla (4 nights)
12/20/2008 Sevilla
12/21/2008 Sevilla
12/22/2008 Start car rental: Day trip drive to Jerez
12/23/2008 Drive to Ronda (3 nights)
12/24/2008 White towns
12/25/2008 White towns
12/26/2008 Drive to Granada (2 nights), drop off car at rental place...
12/27/2008 Granada
12/28/2008 Train back to Madrid (2 nights). Stay near airport...
12/29/2008 Pedraza, if possible by car, otherwise train to Madrid and savor the last day...
12/30/2008 Fly out

Good. One thing to think about, depending on the time of your return flight, is to spend that last night in Pedraza. From there it is an easy, mostly motorway,drive (about an hour and a half??) to the Madrid airport, so you do not necessarily have to spend that last night in an airport hotel..

If your flight is at the end of the day, you might even have time for one last bite of lechazo before you leave Pedraza!

vibhav,
Much better, but I still see a few issues.

What time does your return flight depart from Madrid's Barajas airport?

This past April our friends had a 1:10 departure which allowed our group to spend the final night in Pedraza. We drove them to the airport the next morning, Sunday, to catch their flight, and the drive (which we know very well) to Terminal 1 International departures took us under 1 hr. 20 min. (but little traffic on Sun. morning).

As escrunchy says, that might be a possibility for you, depending on your flight departure time. I wouldn't do it if you have a flight before noon.
HOWEVER, the Hospedería in Pedraza has a TWO night minimum stay on wkds. But, because you'd be staying Sun. night, it may not apply-probably won't.
If you do decide to stay there, please tell the wonderful manager, Belén, that we sent you.

If you decide to go this route, then keep your car in Granada, but stay ON the Alhambra HILL for ease of access.

On 12/28 drive from Granada back to Madrid but spend the night just south in Chinchón, another lovely, picturesque little town with unusually shaped Plaza Mayor that has been a movie set and where bullfights are still held. It does come alive on Sat./Sun. when madrileños come down, guess what for? to do the roast lamb ritual. Spend a very restful night in this charming little burg (you say you and your wife love small towns O:)

Then on 12/29 drive from Chinchón to Pedraza. Will take about 2 hrs.

Or if not Chinchón, you could do your Toledo visit and overnight there (rather than AVE day trip from Madrid), so long as you choose lodging easy to reach and with parking. (We spend late Dec. in Toledo two yrs. ago and had a fantastic time).

Of course, the feasibility of all of the above, working with escrunchy's suggestion, depends on your flight departure time on 12/30.
If it's too early, just keep your itinerary the way it is and ignore all of the above!!!


Re your new itinerary, I have a few questions:

Do you plan to get off the AVE to visit Córdoba, then take another AVE to Seville?

If so, you'd need to store your luggage. They've eliminated the luggage lockers at Córdoba's AVE station. But...there is luggage storage across the street at the BUS station. Just so you'll be prepared.

And the Madrid-Córdoba, Córdoba-Sevilla AVE trip requires two separate tickets, as I assume you know. I would allow at least 4 hours for your Córdoba visit.


Do you plan to drive down to Jerez then come back to Seville to spend the night?

That wouldn't be necessary. And again, having a car in Sevilla is a major, major headache if your hotel is downtown, where you'd want it to be.
I would start that car rental on the 23rd rather than 22nd.

You can do a Jerez sherry bodega visit on your WAY to the white towns and Ronda. Just pick up the rental the morning of Sevilla departure for Ronda, take the AP 4 toll road to Jerez, choose a winery that's an easy exit off the ring road (like González Byass which has parking), take the 11 am tour, then head out of Jerez on the A 382 which will take you east to Arcos then on to Ronda on the A 384-A 374 to Ronda.

Again, www.viamichelin.com is a godsend for directions, estimated travel times, cost of tolls, etc.

Just a few more thoughts...

Sorry for the delayed response, Maribel and ekscrunchy... The weekend was super busy and had to work all weekend...so did not get much time to think about the trip... :-(

Thanks for your detailed suggestions... my wife and I really appreciate them...this is incredibly helpful...

The tickets are finally booked and flight arrives on Dec 14 in Madrid at 9:30am.... Also the return flight is on Dec 30 at 11:05am. So, most of the things about staying a night in Pedraza seem to be not applicable anymore... You know we allotted an additional day in Seville, we may be able to reduce that and return a day early to stay the night in Pedraza...

Also, you are correct about Jerez so let me re-think about that and revise my itinerary...I will repost it tomorrow...

Like you suggested, I might just keep my car in Granada... The only question is how do I go from Alhambra hill to the main town if I park my car at the hotel on Alhambra hill...

You are right about Cordoba... I forgot that I would need luggage lockers... Thanks for the suggestion...

you guys already know what my next question is going to be once the itinerary is finalized... help me with accommodations!! :-)

Thanks again... Let me repost my itinerary tomorrow...

Hi vibhav,
When you post your new itinerary tomorrow, please include a price range for your hotels so that we can help you better in the selection. The more we know about what type of accommodations you prefer and your budget, the better ideas we can give you. In the cities you're headed to there are so many possibilities!

About keeping the car in Granada, staying on the Alhambra hill and reaching downtown-

to get downtown is very easy-just take the red minibus (called Alhambra bus), number 30 or 32. It departs from the bus stop just below the Alhambra Entrance Pavilion about every 10-15 min. or so. Ticket costs 1 euro.

The Alhambra hill and downtown aren't really that far apart at all-it's just that the Al Sabika hill separating them is quite steep. I don't mind walking down. In fact, we even take the "back route" down the Cuesta de los Chinos (or Cuesta del Chapiz) over huge cobblestones-the scenic path follows the ramparts and ends at the Paseo de los Tristes (but wouldn't walk this with a stroller!!!)

The walk takes about 15 min. down hill-it's the hiking up that I certainly don't enjoy!O:)

Most visitors take the mini bus.

Bus 30 runs from the Alhambra to downtown and lets you off at Plaza Nueva where you can walk to everything. The bus 32 does the same but then from there makes a loop through the Albaicín (ancient Arab Quarter) as well.
I'll have my Granada guide up shortly, which explains all that.

Thanks Maribel... Here is the revised itinerary, I don't think I could fit in a night for Pedraza...so I think I will just have to let it go... :-( We will think about a day trip at the end of the trip and see if it materializes... I have changed Seville from 4 night to 3 nights and added a night in Ronda to give more time to White towns...(the ones we thought we would visit are Jerez, Arcos, Zahara and Ronda)... Let me know if you think there is some other smaller town that is better than the ones of the list above...

On your advise, we will keep the car in Granada and stay on Alhambra hill...On the drive back to Madrid, we will try to make a quick stop to Chinchón...

Hotel/Apartments price upper limit I wanted to set at around Euro 120, which translates to about $175 for me...Obviously anything cheaper is good but if there is something that we must-must stay/experience, I am not averse to raising the price limit... We wanted to get a flavor of spanish living so something that gives us flavor of that, it would be good... Also, I think we might try to stay in the Parador in Ronda... My wife is 30 years old so she qualifies for youth discount... :-)

Also, any location that is closer to places to see if always better with a little kid as compared to hopping on and off the train...

Thanks so much for your help again... both of us really appreciate it... :-)

12/13/2008 Fly out
12/14/2008 Reach Madrid 09:30am (5 nights) - Acclimitize
12/15/2008 Madrid
12/16/2008 Day Trip Segovia (AVE)
12/17/2008 Madrid
12/18/2008 Day trip to Toledo (AVE)
12/19/2008 AVE via Cordoba to Sevilla (3 nights). Drop off luggage in the luggage locker nearby.
12/20/2008 Sevilla
12/21/2008 Sevilla
12/22/2008 Start car rental. Drive to Ronda (4 nights)
12/23/2008 White Towns
12/24/2008 White towns
12/25/2008 White towns
12/26/2008 Drive to Granada (2 nights), keep the car and stay on Alhambra Hill...
12/27/2008 Granada
12/28/2008 Drive back to Madrid (2 nights). See Chinchón on the way if possible...Stay near airport...
12/29/2008 Pedraza, if possible by car, otherwise train to Madrid and savor the last day...
12/30/2008 Return car and Fly back (11:05am)

Looks great we'll see what Maribel says..

I like it.

hi vibhav,
I'm sorry you may need to miss out on Pedraza, but since it just doesn't fit well into an itinerary of Madrid and south, I think you may be very wise to leave it for your next trip and do Madrid plus gorgeous Northern Spain!

While I understand you'd like to spend more time in Ronda to explore the white towns, it will be VERY quiet then with not much open on 12/24 and 12/25. The white towns of Zahara and Grazalema may almost resemble Pedraza in sleepiness. O:)

Seville is such a beautiful and exiting city-it offers so many wonderful sights-so much sightseeing to do, in fact, that I always feel a little "cheated" if I just allow it 3 days instead of 4, particularly if I stop on the AVE trip down to spend 4-5 hrs. in Córdoba.

But... that's me and not you and your family. If your primary interest in exploring the Serranía de Ronda and its charming, scenic white towns by car (easier with your 3 yr. old) rather than monument and museum hopping, then you know what's best for you. Just know that it will be a very quiet 4 day stay in late Dec. for you in the Ronda-Arcos area, and I think you'll have lots of time to spare (but maybe that's what your seeking...). Seville and Granada just take longer "to do"-that's why I personally would take a night from Ronda and add to either city, but again, it's your trip, not mine.

Regarding the Ronda Parador:

I just checked rates for your dates, and the Parador online Web Only tariff actually beats the Young Getaway Plan. Web Only rate for 4 nights: €400 Young Getaway: €445.
But the €100 a night rate, again, is only bookable online. Very easy to do at www.parador.es

But remember that garage parking will add about €12 a night, since there's no on street parking there. However....if you sign up for their frequent guest program, the Amigos, your garage parking is complimentary-absolutely free to member of the Amigos program, which is a nice savings.
Send an email to [email protected] to request an application (or call 91 374 26 00).
We've been Amigos members for years and enjoy not having to pay for that garage parking, particularly in winter (and easier loading and unloading of luggage near an elevator), plus we like our complimentary drinks upon check in (a glass of beer, wine or soft drink).

Regarding your other lodging, hera are some to look at that are centrally located and within your €120 budget:

Madrid:
3 star Hotel Prado, jr. suite at 140
(they require either 2 rooms or a jr. suite for 2 adults/ 1 child which is the problem with several hotels in the convenient Barrio de las Letras area)
-it's over your budget but super handy for families.

2 star Hotel Plaza Mayor: triple room normally for 115 but for your dates, discounted to 95.

Apartamentos Los Jerónimos (behind the Prado): 1 bedroom apt. with living room (sofa bed), kitchenette for 140
Again over the budget but you can save with that kitchen
www.espahotel.com

Also look at www.friendlyrentals.com for apts. (studio, Prado Apartment I, should run about 120; 1 bedroom for 140)

In Seville:
Murillo apartments may be your very best bet-right in the heart of the Santa Cruz quarter.

About hotels: (#1 Trip Advisor)
3 star Hotel Alimar would run 170 with the extra bed in a superior double, Dec. actually being high season....
so
consider:
Amadeus
Alcántara
Corral del Rey

or for simplicity's sake, just contact www.seville5.com, since they deal with the above hotels plus some nice apartments.

Granada:
Hotel Guadalupe on the Alhambra hill (if you keep the car). Although triples normally run 134 with tax, in Dec. they may cost less, just don't know.
They offer a discount on the parking in the Alhambra lots, reducing it to 13 a day.

the Hotel America closed in Dec.
the 4 star Alixares (right above the Guadlupe) is your other Granada hill option within your budget. It has triple rooms but won't let me book them online for your dates. Best to email them.

About the visit to a Jerez sherry bodega:

You can reserve online at
www.bodegastiopepe.com
But first English visit in a.m. is at 11:30 (Mon.-Sat.)

About Madrid hotel near the airport:
Hotel Clement Barajas (located in an actual neighborhood rather than in no man's land on a busy highway). Free 24 hr. airport shuttle or to Ifema where you can catch the metro into Madrid, free Wi-Fi, even bathrobes and slippers.

www.clementhoteles.com

Hope this helps!

Meant to add that in Sevilla, the Apartamentos Murillo 1 bedroom apt. only costs 109 for your dates.
www.hotelmurillo.com

Thanks Maribel...Again you amaze me with your detailed responses... thanks a lot...

One of your statements about white towns during christmas concerns us quite a bit...you said that the towns would be VERY sleepy during that time... so my wife and I for the last hour have been thinking about this to see how we can mitigate it... We have come to another proposal for an itinerary( I know not again...) but we like quite towns but not completely sleepy...so it would not be much fun at that time then... Here is the revised itinerary... We will take the AVE to Cordoba the first day we reach Madrid and continue the trip from there and then do the Madrid part during christmas time...See how it looks...

My question is how far is the AVE train station from the Madrid airport? Since our flight reaches at 9:30am...I am thinking we could plan to take the 1pm or 2pm AVE to Cordoba... Also, in case our flight gets considerably delayed and we miss our AVE, what happens at that time?

12/13/2008 Fly In
12/14/2008 Reach Madrid AT 9:30AM and AVE to Cordoba (2 nights) 1pm or 2pm AVE - Acclimatize
12/15/2008 Cordoba
12/16/2008 AVE to Sevilla (3 nights)
12/17/2008 Sevilla
12/18/2008 Sevilla
12/19/2008 Drive to Ronda (4 nights)
12/20/2008 White towns
12/21/2008 White towns
12/22/2008 White towns
12/23/2008 Drive to Granada and drop off car (2 nights)
12/24/2008 Granada
12/25/2008 6:40am Train back to Madrid, reach 11:20am... (5 nights)
12/26/2008 AVE to Toledo
12/27/2008 Madrid
12/28/2008 AVE to Segovia
12/29/2008 Madrid
12/30/2008 Fly Back

Also, thanks so much for your hotel recommendations...these are great, like I said, if we have to increase our budget, we will do that...Let us research them and get back to you and ask further questions... My wife was just looking on the Parador website and she could not locate the internet prices, so she asked me to ask you about how to find it! :-)

Thanks so much again and sorry to keep changing the itinerary, I promise this would be the final time...it is either going to be this one or the previous one... you advise.... :-)

-Vibhav

Hi vibhav,
Yes, I think this is much better so that you do the transfer by train from Granada to Madrid on 12/25.
You know, I should have mentioned that at the very beginning. Spain's capital will be much livelier on Xmas day and after than the white towns!! And Xmas lasts until Jan. 6 (Epiphany) so you can still see the nativity scenes and the Xmas markets and Xmas lights. We love to be in Madrid from Dec. 25 thru NYE.

Yes, you should have plenty of time to take the 1 pm AVE to Córdoba. Just take a taxi from Barajas airport to Atocha station. It should take 20-30 min. and fare should cost between 26-30 euros, depending on whether you land at T1 or T4 (further from the city).
If you buy your AVE tickets online and your flight is delayed and you miss your train there are no refunds. But you should have ample time.

I saw those prices by using my Amigos number to access the online booking for the Ronda Parador. But since you're not Amigos yet, just register and get a user number to book online.

Since you're dropping off the car in Granada, that frees you up for hotels downtown as well. I avoid downtown like the plague with a car, but you'll be car FREE!
Look at the 3 Room Mate properties as well.
www.room-matehoteles.com

I say keep this itinerary!!! Please!:"> Now, on to hotel choices!

Thanks so much Maribel... Now I feel very comfortable... all the ambiguity regarding the itinerary is gone and we will stick to this itinerary... NO MORE CHANGES! :-)

One question regarding hotels that I have is that our kid is 3 years old and he can easily sleep between the two of us on the same bed... so is this a requirement by law that the hotels can not offer a double occupancy room to us? Or does this vary from hotel to hotel?

My wife is already researching the hotels based on your recommendations so she will reply to you on that account in a day or so...

Thanks so much again for your awesome help!!
Thanks...

About the third person-you really need to notify the hotel of that and ask what their policy is. Some will insist on adding a rollaway (cama supletoria) and charge you for it (from 25 euros up), some will try to get you to book two rooms, even though that sounds crazy, some have triples.
It's up to the hotel. It will vary, so just ask.

And remember that members of Amigos at the Paradors get free parking and a free welcome drink. All you need to do is to sign up.

So your itinerary is set!!!! It took a while, but you came up with a really nice plan now that works best for you, your wife, your 3 yr. old, your needs and your travel style. Now, let's hope you can find some great hotels that come in within your budget! I think so! Happy planning.