Pedraza question
 

I was reading Maribel's Madrid guide and she highly recommends visiting Pedraza... so the question is is it possible to do both Pedraza and Segovia on the same day or should you plan for separate days...

Also, since we are traveling in the 2nd half of december and driving there... would the road conditions be bad around that time? (snow/sleet etc...)

Thanks...

Hi vibhav,
I do highly recommend visiting Pedraza but I would do it as a day trip from Segovia. So since you'll have a car, I suggest you overnight in Segovia (I have a list of recommended hotels in my guide), then take a drive the next day northeast on the N110, then the SG-V 2316 up to Pedraza. The drive is very scenic. From Pedraza (with decent weather) you could continue up to Sepúveda and the Duratón gorge and come back to Segovia via Turégano, or head back to Madrid on the A-1.

Just one note-
if you venture to Pedraza on a weekday, such as Mon./Tues., you'll find most of the shops closed, along with the castle. It's very sleepy on weekdays, coming alive on Fri.-Sat.-Sun. with big crowds.

So, if you go on a Sat./Sun. you should reserve well in advance to dine at any of the restaurants, since it's an extremely popular weekend lunch spot for people from Madrid.
Amsdon, escrunchy and I are very fond of El Yantar.
www.elyantardepedraza.com

And if you have time to spend the night, we also love the Hospedería de Santo Domingo.
www.hospederiadesantodomingo.com


It can be quite cold in the Segovia province the 2nd week of December, so bundle up. And yes, you may see some snow-you just never know.

Pedraza is small so you could walk through the village in a one hour. I think it is one of the most handsome villages I have ever visited and you really should allow more time to get the real flavor. The highlight of any visit is a meal at one of the asadores and this would take up a few hours. I would guess that Pedraza would bee very quiet during the week in December.

You cannot do justice to Segovia in one afternoon, but you could get an overview.



Here is my report; also look for an excellent report by Amsdon:


http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34810840

Hi escrunchy,
I think our posts crossed in cyberspace!

vibhav,
Just in case you haven't seen it, I've recently completely redone my Segovia guide and added a lot of info regarding touring in the province.
www.maribelsguides.com

vibhav,
I just looked at your revised itinerary on your other thread and realize that you have Segovia as a day trip on the next to the last day of your 4 night stay in Madrid.

So, two thoughts:
You don't have time for both to do them justice on the same day, 12/16 (Tues.), and it's really tedious and expensive to rent a car just for a day trip from Madrid and hassle with the horrendous traffic.

And you don't need a car at all to travel to Segovia. It's now easy and inexpensive to take the Avant high speed train (30 min.) from Chamartín rail station. See the schedule here:

www.renfe.es

I'd save Pedraza for another trip and concentrate on the many sites in Madrid with a day trip via train to Segovia.

Great news, Maribel! I will take a good, long look!!

vibhav thanks to Maribel & then Ekscrunchy we discovered Pedraza.

I agree w/ Maribel if you only have one day Segovia is enough.
Pedraza was the end of our trip and I needed the R&R due to a surgery a couple of months prior. We started at the Infanta Isabel in Segovia and were very happy there. In Pedraza the Hospederia de Santo Domingo was great and the view & rooms lovely. And we loved the storks. Very peaceful and calm.

As Maribel said Pedraza is sleepy mid week. It was perfect for us under the circumstances but may be too quiet for others. I can see that too.

We really enjoyed Yantar and also had a wonderful meal at Restaurante Codex Calixtinus, a very short 7 minute drive from Pedraza. Really recommend both places.

Here's part II of my (lengthy) report which deals with that...

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...sdon&fid=2

I never can get this link thing right so I just topped the other thread for vibhav to the top...

what am I doing wrong on thie posting of links guys?

ams

here?


http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35025471

Thanks Maribel, ekscrunchy and amsdon for your valuable advise...

We are now increasing a day in our itinerary due to ticket prices etc, so I think we should have a spare day in Madrid to visit Pedraza... Here is the revised itinerary, Let me know what you think! Also, as a sidenote, I am slightly concerned about driving in that region in the 2nd half of december...

12/13/2008 Fly out
12/14/2008 Reach Madrid (5 nights) - Acclimitize
12/15/2008 Madrid
12/16/2008 Day Trip Segovia
12/17/2008 Madrid
12/18/2008 Day trip Pedraza (don't want to stay in Segovia otherwise it will break up nights and it is difficult with a little kid)
12/19/2008 Drive via Toeldo to Cordoba (2 nights)
12/20/2008 Cordoba
12/21/2008 Drive to Sevilla (3 nights)
12/22/2008 Sevilla
12/23/2008 Sevilla
12/24/2008 Drive to Ronda (3 nights)
12/25/2008 White towns
12/26/2008 White towns
12/27/2008 Drive to Granada (2 nights)
12/28/2008 Granada
12/29/2008 Drive back to Madrid (1 night)
12/30/2008 Fly out

Also, Maribel...your guides are fantastic...I will download the latest Segovia version... Also, do you know when you are planning to post the Toledo guide?

Thanks!

Hi vibhav,
My webmaster took the Toledo guide down to add pictures, and I hope to have it back up within a few days. Ditto to my new Granada guide.

I read from your other thread that because of traveling with your 3 yr. old, you'll have a car with you for the entire trip so as not to have to cart the stroller on and off the trains.

Have you chosen your Madrid hotel with garage? Please be aware of the horrendous morning traffic which will be very time-consuming to negotiate to get out of town for your two Segovia province day trips. So if you do plan to have that car in Madrid (and you'll need a car to drive to Pedraza), be sure that it's located in an area of the city that will allow you a "fairly easy" exit onto a ring road without wasting valuable touring time mired in stress-producing commuter traffic.

Ditto to Córdoba and Sevilla, where negotiating the tiny, narrow streets of the maze-like inner quarters can be a huge challenge. Best to book a hotel with garage outside of the maze. And in Granada, for simplicity's sake, I'd stay on the Alhambra hill. It's so easy to follow the ring road, the Ronda Sur, up to the Alhambra hill hotels. It completely circumvents downtown. A breeze compared to the difficulty of finding your downtown hotel. Plus much of downtown is closed off now to vehicular traffic.

Just my thoughts...I mention the above because I used to be a car commuter way back in the time when the traffic wasn't even that nail-biting. Now the only time I enjoy driving in the city is on Sunday mornings in August when the city streets are practically deserted!O:)

Thank yo so much Maribel...

On the cars topic, I had read somewhere that I could park the car somewhere in the garage away from the ring road and then use the public transport system and still stay close to the center of the city... The problem is generally not the stroller, it is the other things like suitcases, bags etc which I will have to carry myself since my wife would take care of the kid, or vice versa... with 3 suitcases (especially in winter when you need more jackets etc.), 1-2 hand bags, 1 stroller and a kid, it becomes difficult to travel light and navigate for 1-2 persons with that much stuff in a public transport system....

so, still if having a car a bad idea? Please suggest if there is a better way to do this...

Thanks again!

vibhaveb/Maribel
I wonder about two day trips would it not be better just to stay in Segovia or Pedraza?

Hi vibhav and amsdon and ekscrunchy,

I agree with amsdon that a 2 night stay in Segovia afte 3 nights in Madrid might be better than two day trips from Madrid.

But I wouldn't want to see you attempt Segovia to Toledo to Córdoba in one day, particularly if you're planning on sightseeing in Toledo and seeing windmills in Consuegra!

About the weather and road conditions in mid-late December:

I read in your other thread that you had considered Morocco rather than Spain because of the much warmer Dec. weather. So it seems that the possibility of snow, cold weather at that time of year was a real concern in your planning process.

The Segovia province can get quite cold in the winter-I've visited Segovia with snow-so perhaps you might even want to omit the Segovia section from your itinerary entirely, save it for another trip, and in mid-late December keep your trip to Madrid and points SOUTH, where you'll be much more likely to have warmer temperatures.

Rather than Segovia to the north, you might want to consider those 2 nights in Toledo before heading south to Andalucía. It won't necessarily be warmer there, but at least you'd be headed in the right direction towards the warmer climate.

And Toledo is a challenging place to visit with its narrow, winding, very hilly, cobblestone streets. It requires work-kind of labor intensive. When we head south by car, we always spend the night in Toledo rather than try to rush through it on a day stop.

Just a thought....

Hi Maribel,

Thanks for your responses....

So, the question I was discussing with my wife yesterday was if we can do that whole trip using public transport or not? If no, where all will we have to get a rental car?

Also, I am finding renfe.es not too english friendly...is there any other website that would be more english friendly that I may use to look for prices/timing etc?

Please let me know and thanks again for your help!

Can you rent a car at the airport on arrival and drive directly to Pedraza? Remember that the town will be very quiet during the week and many places might be closed. What about seeing Madrid at the end of your trip?


Have you tried:


http://www.bahn.de/international/view/en/index.shtml

Eks that is a good point to remind everyone. As picturesque as Pedraza is, as you know the town gets going at 10 am and then closed during siesta as well. When we were there mid week only a handful of shops opened at all, and we were the only folks there in the hotel, which as aok with us but may see too quiet for some.

We liked the tranquil setting, the mountain views & the storks (and the food) but just wanted to make sure vibhav realized that part.

Yes, Pedraza is *extremely* quiet during the week with many of the lovely artisan shops not open at all.

While I love being there then at the very end of a trip to wind down, as we did with friends this April, or on the first day of a journey north to get over jet lag, as I mentioned in my guide, it's a very sleepy place on weekdays, coming "alive" on wkds. when madrileños come up for shopping and for the roast lamb ritual.

About Renfe, it isn't very user friendly at all. I've tried to help folks with that by writing a Guide to Purchasing Renfe Tickets on Line on my web page.

If you were to rent a car upon arrival on Sun. 12/14 and drive directly to Pedraza, plan on a 90 minute drive from the airport. We do it in less, but we know the way extremely well. You'd be arriving maybe for lunch? and then between 6-8 pm the day trippers leave, and you'd have the village basically to yourselves.

I really, really would avoid having a car in Madrid. Having a car in Madrid-Córdoba-Sevilla-Granada is just a tremendous hassle-it's an albatross, and parking fees can add considerable expensee.

You could certainly do part of your trip by train:
AVE from Madrid to Córdoba
AVE from Córdoba to Sevilla

Train from Granada to Madrid (long ride-no high speed train)

BUT, you'll need a car to explore the white towns and Ronda. And since you'd want a car for that portion, I'd take the car on to Granada ONLY if your hotel is located on the Alhambra hill, which you can easily reach via the Carretera de Circunvalación-Ronda Sur, which takes you around the incredible maze that is downtown. I'll have my Granada guide up on my web page in a few days.

Just a few more thoughts...

Thanks ekscrunchy, amsdon and Maribel... This is extremely helpful...

I am getting this feeling that I may have to leave out Pedraza from the trip (I don't want to! :-( )

Also, I may not rent a car in Madrid at all and use Trains to visit segovia/cordoba/seville as well...

From Seville, get a car for Andalusia and drop the car off in Granada... Take train back to Madrid...

The only thing I don't understand is how do I do Toledo then from Madrid without a car?

Thanks again...We really appreciate all this help...

Let me look at Maribel's website to see her help on using renfe...

amsdon, unfortunately, as much as I would hate to do it, I am getting this feeling that I may have to drop Pedraza from the itinerary...

ekscrunchy....the bahn site is not that good either..

vibhav,
I do truly love tiny, quiet Pedraza-it's one of the most beautiful, pristine medieval villages in all of Spain, and I can tell that you really have your heart set on it.

But...it doesn't fit easily into a Madrid-Andalucía itinerary, since it's located 90 min. northeast of Madrid.
And it does REQUIRE a car. It ideally should be combined with the capital, Segovia with its cathedral, aqueduct and Alcázar, and other lovely spots in the province-the castles of Cuéllar, Turégano and Coca, the spectacular Duratón gorge and stunningly perched Sepúlveda.

About Toledo:
The AVANT high speed train runs from Madrid's Atocha station to Toledo and takes 30 min. One way: 9 euros.
Unfortunately to get to Córdoba-Sevilla by train from Toledo, you'd need to backtrack to Madrid's Atocha station to catch the AVE down to both cities.

And remember that Toledo is "labor intensive" as a sightseeing destination, so you don't want to cut your time there short-it's not a "quick" visit if you want to do it justice. Again, I don't do Toledo as a sightseeing stop on a one-day drive from Madrid to those 3 Andalusian capitals.

Just a few more thoughts..Hope we're not thoroughly confusing you!

Thanks Maribel. I agree with you that my heart is set on Pedraza... and you are not confusing me...

I am thinking that if possible, I will rent a car for a day from Madrid (somewhere outside the city) and drive down to Pedraza for a day... :-)

Good to know that Toledo is served by AVE as well...so that should not be a problem if we leave for it early in the morning and come back to Madrid late at night...

Could you please point me to where on your website you talk about dealing with Renfe tickets? Thanks so much for your help...

At the very top, to the right of the logo where it says "Buying Renfe Tickets on-line".

vibhav,
Remember that Pedraza is up northwest of Madrid. The simplest way to reach it is to take the superhighway A-1 (towards Burgos) to the N 110 exit at Santo Tomé del Puerto-Villarejo. Then follow the N 110 WEST as far as Matabuena. At Matabuena go NORTH on the SG-V 2511 about 5 km.

Get exact driving instructions from
www.viamichelin.com

vibhav,
My Toledo guide is now back up on my web page to help you in your planning.

Vibhav I would leave Pedraza for another time....
Part of the appeal is staying there at the Hospederia de Santo Domingo.

Just my thoughts.

I think Segovia is marvelous & you will love it there. So much easier for you to take the train under the circumstances.

Spain has alot to offer.
Sometimes it's more than just a particular city....

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35125162

amsdon,
I loved that thread that you started on Spain's gifts.

vibhav,
The 3 of us (amsdon, escrunchy and I) have extolled the virtues and beauty of Pedraza so much here on the Forum that we may have romanticized it a bit too much for first timers to Spain. It's really small, and I'd hate for you to rent a car and drive the 90 minutes just to see it on a weekday and find everything closed in Dec. tight as a drum.

I so agree with amsdon that part of the magic of Pedraza is to spend the night at the exquisite Hospedería in a beautifully decorated room facing the valley with storks nests literally right in front of your private balcony.

Segovia, as amsdon rightly says, is so easy now to reach by high speed train (leaving from the Chamartín rather than Atocha station), then city bus (info on that in my Segovia guide). It makes it a very easy day trip from Madrid, and it's one of Spain's very most beguiling cities-a Unesco World Heritage Site-that shouldn't be missed. If you really want to make that excursion to the northwest, for first timers, I must say that Segovia, the capital, should come before Pedraza.
amsdon, as always, makes an excellent point.

You flatter me Maribel, thank you.
Vihav, I completely agree.

You guys are funny... :-) The thing is my wife and I are both very fond of small places instead of bigger ones...so leaving out Pedraza is slightly difficult for us knowing that it is a charming small town... :-)

So, My wife and I decided, based on your advise, to alter the plan slightly... What we are going to do is stay a day short in Madrid upfront and come back to Madrid a day earlier at the end...Then keep Pedraza for the last day...stay near the airport...and if the weather is good, everything else is fine, we will drive down to Pedraza...otherwise savor Madrid for another day before we fly back...

Maribel...Thanks for the Toledo information... I will download and read if thoroughly...

Here is the revised itinerary:

12/13/2008 Fly out
12/14/2008 Reach Madrid (5 nights) - Acclimitize
12/15/2008 Madrid
12/16/2008 Day Trip Segovia (AVE)
12/17/2008 Madrid
12/18/2008 Day trip to Toledo (AVE)
12/19/2008 AVE via Cordoba to Sevilla (4 nights)
12/20/2008 Sevilla
12/21/2008 Sevilla
12/22/2008 Start car rental: Day trip drive to Jerez
12/23/2008 Drive to Ronda (3 nights)
12/24/2008 White towns
12/25/2008 White towns
12/26/2008 Drive to Granada (2 nights), drop off car at rental place...
12/27/2008 Granada
12/28/2008 Train back to Madrid (2 nights). Stay near airport...
12/29/2008 Pedraza, if possible by car, otherwise train to Madrid and savor the last day...
12/30/2008 Fly out

Good. One thing to think about, depending on the time of your return flight, is to spend that last night in Pedraza. From there it is an easy, mostly motorway,drive (about an hour and a half??) to the Madrid airport, so you do not necessarily have to spend that last night in an airport hotel..

If your flight is at the end of the day, you might even have time for one last bite of lechazo before you leave Pedraza!

vibhav,
Much better, but I still see a few issues.

What time does your return flight depart from Madrid's Barajas airport?

This past April our friends had a 1:10 departure which allowed our group to spend the final night in Pedraza. We drove them to the airport the next morning, Sunday, to catch their flight, and the drive (which we know very well) to Terminal 1 International departures took us under 1 hr. 20 min. (but little traffic on Sun. morning).

As escrunchy says, that might be a possibility for you, depending on your flight departure time. I wouldn't do it if you have a flight before noon.
HOWEVER, the Hospedería in Pedraza has a TWO night minimum stay on wkds. But, because you'd be staying Sun. night, it may not apply-probably won't.
If you do decide to stay there, please tell the wonderful manager, Belén, that we sent you.

If you decide to go this route, then keep your car in Granada, but stay ON the Alhambra HILL for ease of access.

On 12/28 drive from Granada back to Madrid but spend the night just south in Chinchón, another lovely, picturesque little town with unusually shaped Plaza Mayor that has been a movie set and where bullfights are still held. It does come alive on Sat./Sun. when madrileños come down, guess what for? to do the roast lamb ritual. Spend a very restful night in this charming little burg (you say you and your wife love small towns O:)

Then on 12/29 drive from Chinchón to Pedraza. Will take about 2 hrs.

Or if not Chinchón, you could do your Toledo visit and overnight there (rather than AVE day trip from Madrid), so long as you choose lodging easy to reach and with parking. (We spend late Dec. in Toledo two yrs. ago and had a fantastic time).

Of course, the feasibility of all of the above, working with escrunchy's suggestion, depends on your flight departure time on 12/30.
If it's too early, just keep your itinerary the way it is and ignore all of the above!!!


Re your new itinerary, I have a few questions:

Do you plan to get off the AVE to visit Córdoba, then take another AVE to Seville?

If so, you'd need to store your luggage. They've eliminated the luggage lockers at Córdoba's AVE station. But...there is luggage storage across the street at the BUS station. Just so you'll be prepared.

And the Madrid-Córdoba, Córdoba-Sevilla AVE trip requires two separate tickets, as I assume you know. I would allow at least 4 hours for your Córdoba visit.


Do you plan to drive down to Jerez then come back to Seville to spend the night?

That wouldn't be necessary. And again, having a car in Sevilla is a major, major headache if your hotel is downtown, where you'd want it to be.
I would start that car rental on the 23rd rather than 22nd.

You can do a Jerez sherry bodega visit on your WAY to the white towns and Ronda. Just pick up the rental the morning of Sevilla departure for Ronda, take the AP 4 toll road to Jerez, choose a winery that's an easy exit off the ring road (like González Byass which has parking), take the 11 am tour, then head out of Jerez on the A 382 which will take you east to Arcos then on to Ronda on the A 384-A 374 to Ronda.

Again, www.viamichelin.com is a godsend for directions, estimated travel times, cost of tolls, etc.

Just a few more thoughts...

Sorry for the delayed response, Maribel and ekscrunchy... The weekend was super busy and had to work all weekend...so did not get much time to think about the trip... :-(

Thanks for your detailed suggestions... my wife and I really appreciate them...this is incredibly helpful...

The tickets are finally booked and flight arrives on Dec 14 in Madrid at 9:30am.... Also the return flight is on Dec 30 at 11:05am. So, most of the things about staying a night in Pedraza seem to be not applicable anymore... You know we allotted an additional day in Seville, we may be able to reduce that and return a day early to stay the night in Pedraza...

Also, you are correct about Jerez so let me re-think about that and revise my itinerary...I will repost it tomorrow...

Like you suggested, I might just keep my car in Granada... The only question is how do I go from Alhambra hill to the main town if I park my car at the hotel on Alhambra hill...

You are right about Cordoba... I forgot that I would need luggage lockers... Thanks for the suggestion...

you guys already know what my next question is going to be once the itinerary is finalized... help me with accommodations!! :-)

Thanks again... Let me repost my itinerary tomorrow...

Hi vibhav,
When you post your new itinerary tomorrow, please include a price range for your hotels so that we can help you better in the selection. The more we know about what type of accommodations you prefer and your budget, the better ideas we can give you. In the cities you're headed to there are so many possibilities!

About keeping the car in Granada, staying on the Alhambra hill and reaching downtown-

to get downtown is very easy-just take the red minibus (called Alhambra bus), number 30 or 32. It departs from the bus stop just below the Alhambra Entrance Pavilion about every 10-15 min. or so. Ticket costs 1 euro.

The Alhambra hill and downtown aren't really that far apart at all-it's just that the Al Sabika hill separating them is quite steep. I don't mind walking down. In fact, we even take the "back route" down the Cuesta de los Chinos (or Cuesta del Chapiz) over huge cobblestones-the scenic path follows the ramparts and ends at the Paseo de los Tristes (but wouldn't walk this with a stroller!!!)

The walk takes about 15 min. down hill-it's the hiking up that I certainly don't enjoy!O:)

Most visitors take the mini bus.

Bus 30 runs from the Alhambra to downtown and lets you off at Plaza Nueva where you can walk to everything. The bus 32 does the same but then from there makes a loop through the Albaicín (ancient Arab Quarter) as well.
I'll have my Granada guide up shortly, which explains all that.

Thanks Maribel... Here is the revised itinerary, I don't think I could fit in a night for Pedraza...so I think I will just have to let it go... :-( We will think about a day trip at the end of the trip and see if it materializes... I have changed Seville from 4 night to 3 nights and added a night in Ronda to give more time to White towns...(the ones we thought we would visit are Jerez, Arcos, Zahara and Ronda)... Let me know if you think there is some other smaller town that is better than the ones of the list above...

On your advise, we will keep the car in Granada and stay on Alhambra hill...On the drive back to Madrid, we will try to make a quick stop to Chinchón...

Hotel/Apartments price upper limit I wanted to set at around Euro 120, which translates to about $175 for me...Obviously anything cheaper is good but if there is something that we must-must stay/experience, I am not averse to raising the price limit... We wanted to get a flavor of spanish living so something that gives us flavor of that, it would be good... Also, I think we might try to stay in the Parador in Ronda... My wife is 30 years old so she qualifies for youth discount... :-)

Also, any location that is closer to places to see if always better with a little kid as compared to hopping on and off the train...

Thanks so much for your help again... both of us really appreciate it... :-)

12/13/2008 Fly out
12/14/2008 Reach Madrid 09:30am (5 nights) - Acclimitize
12/15/2008 Madrid
12/16/2008 Day Trip Segovia (AVE)
12/17/2008 Madrid
12/18/2008 Day trip to Toledo (AVE)
12/19/2008 AVE via Cordoba to Sevilla (3 nights). Drop off luggage in the luggage locker nearby.
12/20/2008 Sevilla
12/21/2008 Sevilla
12/22/2008 Start car rental. Drive to Ronda (4 nights)
12/23/2008 White Towns
12/24/2008 White towns
12/25/2008 White towns
12/26/2008 Drive to Granada (2 nights), keep the car and stay on Alhambra Hill...
12/27/2008 Granada
12/28/2008 Drive back to Madrid (2 nights). See Chinchón on the way if possible...Stay near airport...
12/29/2008 Pedraza, if possible by car, otherwise train to Madrid and savor the last day...
12/30/2008 Return car and Fly back (11:05am)

Looks great we'll see what Maribel says..

I like it.

hi vibhav,
I'm sorry you may need to miss out on Pedraza, but since it just doesn't fit well into an itinerary of Madrid and south, I think you may be very wise to leave it for your next trip and do Madrid plus gorgeous Northern Spain!

While I understand you'd like to spend more time in Ronda to explore the white towns, it will be VERY quiet then with not much open on 12/24 and 12/25. The white towns of Zahara and Grazalema may almost resemble Pedraza in sleepiness. O:)

Seville is such a beautiful and exiting city-it offers so many wonderful sights-so much sightseeing to do, in fact, that I always feel a little "cheated" if I just allow it 3 days instead of 4, particularly if I stop on the AVE trip down to spend 4-5 hrs. in Córdoba.

But... that's me and not you and your family. If your primary interest in exploring the Serranía de Ronda and its charming, scenic white towns by car (easier with your 3 yr. old) rather than monument and museum hopping, then you know what's best for you. Just know that it will be a very quiet 4 day stay in late Dec. for you in the Ronda-Arcos area, and I think you'll have lots of time to spare (but maybe that's what your seeking...). Seville and Granada just take longer "to do"-that's why I personally would take a night from Ronda and add to either city, but again, it's your trip, not mine.

Regarding the Ronda Parador:

I just checked rates for your dates, and the Parador online Web Only tariff actually beats the Young Getaway Plan. Web Only rate for 4 nights: €400 Young Getaway: €445.
But the €100 a night rate, again, is only bookable online. Very easy to do at www.parador.es

But remember that garage parking will add about €12 a night, since there's no on street parking there. However....if you sign up for their frequent guest program, the Amigos, your garage parking is complimentary-absolutely free to member of the Amigos program, which is a nice savings.
Send an email to [email protected] to request an application (or call 91 374 26 00).
We've been Amigos members for years and enjoy not having to pay for that garage parking, particularly in winter (and easier loading and unloading of luggage near an elevator), plus we like our complimentary drinks upon check in (a glass of beer, wine or soft drink).

Regarding your other lodging, hera are some to look at that are centrally located and within your €120 budget:

Madrid:
3 star Hotel Prado, jr. suite at 140
(they require either 2 rooms or a jr. suite for 2 adults/ 1 child which is the problem with several hotels in the convenient Barrio de las Letras area)
-it's over your budget but super handy for families.

2 star Hotel Plaza Mayor: triple room normally for 115 but for your dates, discounted to 95.

Apartamentos Los Jerónimos (behind the Prado): 1 bedroom apt. with living room (sofa bed), kitchenette for 140
Again over the budget but you can save with that kitchen
www.espahotel.com

Also look at www.friendlyrentals.com for apts. (studio, Prado Apartment I, should run about 120; 1 bedroom for 140)

In Seville:
Murillo apartments may be your very best bet-right in the heart of the Santa Cruz quarter.

About hotels: (#1 Trip Advisor)
3 star Hotel Alimar would run 170 with the extra bed in a superior double, Dec. actually being high season....
so
consider:
Amadeus
Alcántara
Corral del Rey

or for simplicity's sake, just contact www.seville5.com, since they deal with the above hotels plus some nice apartments.

Granada:
Hotel Guadalupe on the Alhambra hill (if you keep the car). Although triples normally run 134 with tax, in Dec. they may cost less, just don't know.
They offer a discount on the parking in the Alhambra lots, reducing it to 13 a day.

the Hotel America closed in Dec.
the 4 star Alixares (right above the Guadlupe) is your other Granada hill option within your budget. It has triple rooms but won't let me book them online for your dates. Best to email them.

About the visit to a Jerez sherry bodega:

You can reserve online at
www.bodegastiopepe.com
But first English visit in a.m. is at 11:30 (Mon.-Sat.)

About Madrid hotel near the airport:
Hotel Clement Barajas (located in an actual neighborhood rather than in no man's land on a busy highway). Free 24 hr. airport shuttle or to Ifema where you can catch the metro into Madrid, free Wi-Fi, even bathrobes and slippers.

www.clementhoteles.com

Hope this helps!

Meant to add that in Sevilla, the Apartamentos Murillo 1 bedroom apt. only costs 109 for your dates.
www.hotelmurillo.com

Thanks Maribel...Again you amaze me with your detailed responses... thanks a lot...

One of your statements about white towns during christmas concerns us quite a bit...you said that the towns would be VERY sleepy during that time... so my wife and I for the last hour have been thinking about this to see how we can mitigate it... We have come to another proposal for an itinerary( I know not again...) but we like quite towns but not completely sleepy...so it would not be much fun at that time then... Here is the revised itinerary... We will take the AVE to Cordoba the first day we reach Madrid and continue the trip from there and then do the Madrid part during christmas time...See how it looks...

My question is how far is the AVE train station from the Madrid airport? Since our flight reaches at 9:30am...I am thinking we could plan to take the 1pm or 2pm AVE to Cordoba... Also, in case our flight gets considerably delayed and we miss our AVE, what happens at that time?

12/13/2008 Fly In
12/14/2008 Reach Madrid AT 9:30AM and AVE to Cordoba (2 nights) 1pm or 2pm AVE - Acclimatize
12/15/2008 Cordoba
12/16/2008 AVE to Sevilla (3 nights)
12/17/2008 Sevilla
12/18/2008 Sevilla
12/19/2008 Drive to Ronda (4 nights)
12/20/2008 White towns
12/21/2008 White towns
12/22/2008 White towns
12/23/2008 Drive to Granada and drop off car (2 nights)
12/24/2008 Granada
12/25/2008 6:40am Train back to Madrid, reach 11:20am... (5 nights)
12/26/2008 AVE to Toledo
12/27/2008 Madrid
12/28/2008 AVE to Segovia
12/29/2008 Madrid
12/30/2008 Fly Back

Also, thanks so much for your hotel recommendations...these are great, like I said, if we have to increase our budget, we will do that...Let us research them and get back to you and ask further questions... My wife was just looking on the Parador website and she could not locate the internet prices, so she asked me to ask you about how to find it! :-)

Thanks so much again and sorry to keep changing the itinerary, I promise this would be the final time...it is either going to be this one or the previous one... you advise.... :-)

-Vibhav

Hi vibhav,
Yes, I think this is much better so that you do the transfer by train from Granada to Madrid on 12/25.
You know, I should have mentioned that at the very beginning. Spain's capital will be much livelier on Xmas day and after than the white towns!! And Xmas lasts until Jan. 6 (Epiphany) so you can still see the nativity scenes and the Xmas markets and Xmas lights. We love to be in Madrid from Dec. 25 thru NYE.

Yes, you should have plenty of time to take the 1 pm AVE to Córdoba. Just take a taxi from Barajas airport to Atocha station. It should take 20-30 min. and fare should cost between 26-30 euros, depending on whether you land at T1 or T4 (further from the city).
If you buy your AVE tickets online and your flight is delayed and you miss your train there are no refunds. But you should have ample time.

I saw those prices by using my Amigos number to access the online booking for the Ronda Parador. But since you're not Amigos yet, just register and get a user number to book online.

Since you're dropping off the car in Granada, that frees you up for hotels downtown as well. I avoid downtown like the plague with a car, but you'll be car FREE!
Look at the 3 Room Mate properties as well.
www.room-matehoteles.com

I say keep this itinerary!!! Please!:"> Now, on to hotel choices!

Thanks so much Maribel... Now I feel very comfortable... all the ambiguity regarding the itinerary is gone and we will stick to this itinerary... NO MORE CHANGES! :-)

One question regarding hotels that I have is that our kid is 3 years old and he can easily sleep between the two of us on the same bed... so is this a requirement by law that the hotels can not offer a double occupancy room to us? Or does this vary from hotel to hotel?

My wife is already researching the hotels based on your recommendations so she will reply to you on that account in a day or so...

Thanks so much again for your awesome help!!
Thanks...

About the third person-you really need to notify the hotel of that and ask what their policy is. Some will insist on adding a rollaway (cama supletoria) and charge you for it (from 25 euros up), some will try to get you to book two rooms, even though that sounds crazy, some have triples.
It's up to the hotel. It will vary, so just ask.

And remember that members of Amigos at the Paradors get free parking and a free welcome drink. All you need to do is to sign up.

So your itinerary is set!!!! It took a while, but you came up with a really nice plan now that works best for you, your wife, your 3 yr. old, your needs and your travel style. Now, let's hope you can find some great hotels that come in within your budget! I think so! Happy planning.