Paris metro police
 

Well, this is my first time posting a message on Fodors so bear with me. I have learned so much from reading travel talk posted by others. We just returned from a wonderful trip to Paris and wanted to alert other travelers about our experience with the Paris metro police. We were in Paris for 9 days so decided to purchase the one week metro pass (Carte Orange weekly pass). We asked a metro agent for assistance and after several attempts at using the automatic machines, finally got passes for all 4 of us. However, the metro agent did not give us the carte orange card that you are supposed to receive when you purchase the weekly pass. Toward the end of the week, the metro police were doing a random check in one of the metro corridors of all tickets. When we showed our passes, we were told that we must also have the orange card and that we had to pay a 35 euro fine each since we didn't have it. We explained that a metro agent had assisted us when we got our passes, but the metro policeman couldn't have cared less and was in fact quite threatening that we must pay or else the fine would double and he would take our passport information, etc. etc. Quite reluctantly, we paid him 35 euro each, or a total of 140 euro. Quite an expensive lesson, especially since we had paid for our passes and had not been informed of the necessity of having the carte orange card as well. I had read postings about the card, but that if we did not have it, the Paris metro police did not hassle tourists over it. That was not the case with our lovely metro policeman. In any event, I was very upset by the experience as it clearly appeared to be a money making activity targeted at tourists. Not very friendly...however, this has not clouded our view of Paris and France in general as everything else was truly wonderful and the people there are grand and very helpful. Well, I decided to pursue getting our fine money back since it was 140 euro, so we went to the tourist office at the Louvre, who sent us to the Chatelet station metro office, who didn't speak english, and sent us to another information booth at Chatelet, who sent us to an office to make a report...who gave us the address of the place where we would get a refund of the fines we paid. However, the address was not exactly correct (one number off on the street number...taking us to a residence rather than an office). We finally got the correct address and got our refunds. It was quite apparent that this was a common activity as they didn't give us any problem getting our money back...although it sure did appear to be a game of "lets see how long before the tourist tires of this and gives up on getting any money back"...the giving of the wrong address on a preprinted slip...humm ... sounds suspicious. In any event, after going thru the process, we did get results and went on our way...with the clear message that we must also get a photo taken and attach it to the carte orange card. We did so...and are now official and legal. So, for all you future travelers to Paris who are there long enough to take advantage of using a weekly pass (good from a Monday thru Sunday period), be sure to get the carte orange card as well and either bring a small photo with you to attach or use one of the photo booths in the metro stations (we found one at the Courcelles station that worked - cost 4 euro to get a photo). Now this is just an adventure to add to our travel journey tales, and in no way did we let it spoil an otherwise fantastic trip with great Parisans.

The caution about getting the card when you buy the pass is a good one, but the fault was entirely with the window agent. The Metro "police" agent was just enforcing the law.

I suppose that the agent selling the pass just didn't understand that it was your first pCrchase : generally people buy a weekly Varte Orage ticket each week and have the ID part (remember : you were buying a local worker's transport pass !).

I do not understand why you see this as being "hassled" and that somehow you might have been singled out.

I'd say you were fortunate that you could get the money back at all given your own admission that you weren't complying with the rules.

Why the Metro would levy and fine and then give it back is the thing that mystifies me.

>>>>>
Why the Metro would levy and fine and then give it back is the thing that mystifies me.
>>>>>

because the police were just enforcing the law blindly. in the overall view of things, it makes no sense to hit up tourists with fines like this. finally, the OP got to someone who was able to look at it with common sense rather than just enforcing the law without thinking.

although this might make no sense to someone looking at it from their own perspective, there is a very basic reason why this happened (and probably happens many times each day):

french working culture is characterised by a large 'power distance' and little empowerment of the employee. people's jobs are narrowly scoped and straying from your strict job specification is generally not done.

as compared with a country like denmark, where the police would be more inclined to make these decisions themselves rather than to have the problem go through the proper channels until the person tasked with handling customer fine complaints is found.

just a cultural difference that is easily understood if you have any experience working with or for a french (or other latin) organisation or if you have any understanding of cross-cultural business practices.

---- it clearly appeared to be a money making activity targeted at tourists----

I am appaled at that statement. It is clearly NOT aimed at tourists. The law is for everyone. I take the metro daily and have had my tickets controled many times. This is not some plan by the RATP to not give the card to tourists and hit them with a fine. Information on how the cards work is posted everywhere. You are the one that requested it and you are the one that should have gotten the card.

----I had read postings about the card, but that if we did not have it, the Paris metro police did not hassle tourists over it----

So you knew about the card and decided to skip it. Then blamed the ticket agent that sold them to you? They dont give out a card every time a Carte Orange is sold. You use your card over and over again so it is up to you to alert the agent to the need for a card. Perhaps the agent could have guessed that you need one but it is certainly not in their instruction manual to hide them from tourists nor are they obligated to give you more than you ask for!

In american culture you ask a question and you get an answer that not only replies to your question but covers any territory around that question that might be useful. In French culture they answer the question but typically do not add more information.

----although it sure did appear to be a game of "lets see how long before the tourist tires of this and gives up on getting any money back"...the giving of the wrong address on a preprinted slip...humm ... sounds suspicious----

They tend to give the main address for the building and then let you figure out where you need to go in. I have experienced this many times when doing French administrative paperwork. For example the Prefecture de Police is so large it had 4 streets around it. They give you the main address which is not the door you need to go into. You just ask upon arrival and can find it. Again, not some sort of ruse to get tourists not to ask for their money back.

walkinaround: --- in the overall view of things, it makes no sense to hit up tourists with fines like this. ---

I am sorry but tourists are not above the law. Yes the agent could have "gone easy" on the tourists but part of the process of the Carte Orange is to have the card. It is well documented in guide books and on travel forums. Even the OP knew of the need for the card.

The Metro police take their jobs VERY seriously!! Without a photo and a number of your cover on the ticket, you are breaking the law. A family, for instance, could pass the ticket around without the cover.
But having the cover is also VERY useful--you just hold it up when getting on the bus, since you do not put your ticket in the machine for buses.
I don't quite understand why the OP, if having read about the CO, didn't arrive with her picture ready to put in the cover. Showing the clerk a picture would have alerted him to her need for the cover.

I don't think I would have been as nice as the RATP -- the fines were justified. A Carte Orange is obviously a card, not the coupon that goes with it.

Anyway, this will all be eliminated soon, as the Carte Orange is being phased out for the NaviGo pass -- and I fear that tourist access to the NaviGo may be extremely difficult or impossible.

I agree with the second half of Dave-in-Paris' comment (not the fault of the Metro police) but not the first part. In my view, it is not the fault of the ticket agent that you didn't get the ID card. It's your fault for not ensuring that you knew what you were doing. As others have mentioned, guidebooks and signs explain the need for two bits of paper for a Carte Orange to be valid (the base card with ID photo, plus the weekly ticket).

WOW it's a good thing I read this posting or we may have did the same thing? So we'll need the base card+ the ticket and a photo, can we use our extra passport photos for the the photo part or do we have to have one from france? We got 4 photos each from walgreens but only used two for our passports, Thnaks.

Granted we're in the "speculation zone," but if the OP asked for a carte orange, that's what should have dispensed - along with the coupon. Could have been a misunderstanding, easy enough when the native language isn't shared. But it could also have been a ticket agent watching the line form ever longer behind the OP and family, and taking the quick way out.

>> and I fear that tourist access to the NaviGo may be extremely difficult or impossible. <<

There are talks about implementing a non-resident Navigo pass, which would cost 5 or 7 euros, but indeed it's not very clear.

By the way, Walkinaround, the French police do use discretion in applying the law. In a long time here, we seen it ourselves, up close. And heard about it many times, particularly when tourists are involved. And so do the Metro rule enforcers use discretion, most recently, to my knowledge, with weeklong visitors we had, last month. I think it has a lot more to do with the "quality" of the interaction than with any cultural difference. I cringe at any explanation of national behavior. We been here since 1986 and we're highly confident that we still understand very little about the French. How could it be otherwise?

>> can we use our extra passport photos for the the photo part or do we have to have one from france? <<

Yes, you can. Don't forget also to write down the number of your Carte Orange card on the ticket.

Have a good trip !

dave, i never said that french police would never use discretion when assessing fines. i was just explaining from a cultural perspective why something that seems to make no sense (why levy a fine and just refund it later?) could happen with such apparent regularity. and how there would be less tendency to use discretion as compared to other working cultures.

as for cringing at any explanation of national behaviour, i do tend to agree in principle. however, international companies and organisations need a framework in which to assess workplace cultures. there have been far too many documented failures because of cultural differences that go unrecognised in the workplace...the deadly assumption that what one culture accepts or favours will work everywhere. corporate mergers sometimes result in anglo-american or scandinavian style employee empowerment programmes being introduced in european latin countries...usually with dismal failure because employees and managers are equally uncomfortable with it.

agree or disagree with it, this idea is basic and well documented both in practical and theoritical cultural studies. like it or not, there are deep cultural reasons why french employees will be less flexible and more bureaucratic when faced with situations such as the one described by the OP.

I don't disagree in principle. There are cultural-societal differences, however dimly I may perceive them and the research-based point sounds reasonable, at least. But culture is sort of like a closet full of clothes we wear. If I were to venture into someone else's wardrobe, I'd be a little disoriented, and cautious about judgements. Traveling between cultures works the same way, I think. We don't profoundly share the same language - or political, social or economic history. Cross-cultural academic research is notoriously tricky and open to question. Maybe I'm taking the easy way out - imagining that what happens in the Metro on Tuesday morning may have as much or more to do with what sort of a night before the patroling agent had. Or how polite, or contrite, the "offender" may be.

Is this the part where I confess that I was fined on the London Underground out of pure stupidity, wrote a letter to complain anyway and was promptly refunded?

Kerouac :

"I fear that tourist access to the NaviGo may be extremely difficult or impossible".

Without being absolutely positive about this, I would add that it can be understandable that non residents are excluded from the Carte orange.

Public transport is heavily subsidised, and so is the Carte orange and so will be its successors (including through employers contributions), through local and national taxes (even if the Ile-de-France regional mass transit has recently become a competence of the regional government). As a result, the traveller pays somewhat less than the (marginal) cost of his/trip. Arguably, tourists bring money to the local economy, but so do the tax paying residents as well...

However, even from a mere environmental point of view, there should be incentives for visitors to use public transport, but under specific schemes...

<i>Author: Mr_Dreamer
Date: 12/12/2006, 06:39 am
WOW it's a good thing I read this posting or we may have did the same thing? So we'll need the base card+ the ticket and a photo, can we use our extra passport photos for the the photo part or do we have to have one from france? We got 4 photos each from walgreens but only used two for our passports, Thnaks.</i>

I would save the passport photos for future use, in the event your passport is lost or stolen - will reduce the amount of time you spend getting it replaced.

The C.O. photo space is much smaller - you only need a head shot about 1&quot; square. You can cut one out of an old photo or use your own digital camera... it just needs to look like you.

MorganB writes
&quot; In american culture you ask a question and you get an answer that not only replies to your question but covers any territory around that question that might be useful. In French culture they answer the question but typically do not add more information.&quot;

So true, but not only in France. This is habit throughout Europe, particularly with public workers.

Thanks travelnut for the info. By the way, how much is a bus ticket/pass for two people for a week in Paris to go all over?

All the transport prices are found on this website:

www.ratp.fr

Look under &quot;titres de transport&quot;, then under &quot;tariffs&quot;.
I advise you to familiarize yourself with the tools on this site, esp. the maps and routing feature.

You don't have to use a passport photo - a photocopy of a photograph will do. We just photocopy the passport page (using our fax machine) and then cut out the photo for their ID card.

One tricky thing about the Carte Orange is that it works on a calendar week basis (Monday-Sunday), so that if your visit covers only part of a week or straddles two weeks, you might not get your money's worth. Individual tickets bottom in carnets of 10 are 1.09 each (or 1.40 if bought individually). The Carte Orange is 16 euros for zones 1-2 (all you really need). So you need to take 15 journeys in a calendar week to break even. On the one hand, many trips in Paris are quite walkable (and it's a nice way to see the city). So you might take public transportation less than you expect you will. On the other hand, you can't transfer from bus to metro, vice-versa or metro to bus (a separate ticket for each is required, but metro-metro transfers are covered by a single ticket), so you might occasionally need two tickets for a single trips. If you expect to make four one-way trips over four days, then it's worth buying. Three days or fewer and it probably doesn't make sense. They sell a Paris Visite card (1, 2, 3 or 5 days) but it's more expensive - e.g. 18.60 for 3 zone, 3 day card (and a whopping 27.20 for a 5-day card). (The three day card might be a good value if the added benefits of the Paris Visite card, which provides discounts for certain transportation, sites, stores and restaurants are worth it to you.) The Paris Visite card can be validated to start on any day.

&gt;We finally got the correct address and got our refunds. &lt;

Good for you, S.

((I))

Many times I've seen the Metro police check all passengers in a car -- tourists and locals alike.

Woody

For Carte Orange photos, there are photomatons for 2 euros in most metro stations, all train stations and just about every Monoprix, to name only a few locations. They use a video system now that allows you to choose the least horrible pose (but who cares for a Carte Orange?).

I don't feel worry for anyone who tries to take advantage of other public transportation systems, but would have in this case if it were solely the metro clerks fault. However, the OP admitted in the first post that they had read all about it on Fodors, many posts, and knew that you were supposed to have the card but that the metro police didn't bother you if you didn't. I agree with Kate who I think said the clerk probably assumed you had the card if you were trying to buy it from a machine, that's what they are for -- people who know what they are doing and already have the card. It isn't really clear from this post what assistance the clerk was asked about, either -- maybe just how to push a button or something functional about the machines, it's not clear. Otherwise, why would you not get them from the clerk directly at the window if you were asking their assistance? that's the weird part.

So, susie knew all along, apparently, that she was supposed to have the ID card, and decided to skip it, anyway. Even if it were the clerks error, clerks aren't perfect, if you knew you had to have one, why wouldn't you ask them about iot? Also, I have never read many posts on here where people claim the metro police don't care if you don't have the card -- in fact, I have read the exact opposite and always post on those threads when someone claims you don't need one. I always say that by regulation you must have a card, it is not debatable, and many other people say that also. I don't think I've ever read a single thread on Fodors where a person has said you don't need one and everybody agreed or said nothing.

Thanks for the info Susie.

For the picture you can cut out a face from a digital picture also.
The CO is REALLY cost effective for the bus because Paris buses do not have transfers--you need a new ticket (as from a carnet) for each leg. With the CO, you just hold it up.
The other good &quot;buy&quot; is the Mobilis, IF you know you will be using the public transport a LOT in one day (I think the break even point is 5 legs) and you don't have the CO. The Paris Visite is rarely a good deal.

&gt;&gt; Otherwise, why would you not get them from the clerk directly at the window if you were asking their assistance? that's the weird part. &lt;

Under a new scheme for labor organisation at the RATP, some stations have no more manned booths but only vending machines with helping staff. Maybe the OP bought his/her CO at one of these stations.

The op said &lt;&lt; However, the metro agent did not give us the carte orange card that you are supposed to receive when you purchase the weekly pass.&gt;&gt; Actually the obtaining of the carte orange wallet (which the OP did not get) is an infrequent transaction compared to the obtaining of the coupon hebdomadaire (which the OP did get). A Metro traveller in Paris often carries the same carte orange wallet for years, only obtaining the weekly or monthly ticket as necessary. I can recall a clerk having to search for the carte orange while she had the weekly ticket (coupon) readily available.
I am not surprised the clerk did not offer one - the expectation would be that the purchaser would know what they wanted and would ask for what they wanted.

-----Under a new scheme for labor organisation at the RATP, some stations have no more manned booths but only vending machines with helping staff.----

U sure about this SH? I believe some entrances to stations no longer have manned booths but all stations have at least one manned booth somewhere.

&gt;&gt; U sure about this SH? I believe some entrances to stations no longer have manned booths but all stations have at least one manned booth somewhere. &lt;&lt;

Yup. Edgar Quinet is an example : there is no more vending booth (well, technically there is still a booth, but only with heping staff)

At Les Halles, the upper ticket office is closed on the weekend and there are only machines, but the other ticket office down on the RER level is open. Unfortunately, there is no written indication of this.

Actually, to get back to the title of this thread, it must be mentioned that the intervention was by ticket checkers, not &quot;metro police&quot;. Metro police do indeed exist and most people would not want them to take an interest in you. &quot;RATP S&ucirc;ret&eacute;&quot; is even worse, with their clubs and their attack dogs, but they are there more for intimidation than intervention.

Wow...some of you can be harsh. However, the only reason I posted was so anyone else going would be sure to know to have the card and get the photo. That's all. I was just trying to be helpful. One person responded about the address we were given was probably just the main building...just so you know, that was not the case. The address for was a residence and the actual address was several blocks down the street. In any event, we had a wonderful trip.

Susie, the information is very helpful for others. It was your accusations and conspiracy theories that I found unwarranted.

I have to disagree with most of the responses to the OP. Nobody should have to read FODORS website or a guidebook to be assured they're being issued the proper documentation to ride a metro/bus/train. By going up to an authorized ticket agent to purchase access you're saying, &quot;I want to ride the metro/bus/train. WHAT do I need to do in order to make this happen (i.e. pay x amount of money, produce x documents/identification, etc.)? In this case, in order to ride the metro you need a ticket AND a card. Enough said. If you already have a card, you tell the agent you don't need one. But it was the agent's job to sell the patron the correct access documentation and he did not do his job. The tourist office was right in recognizing the agent's oversight and suspending the fine.

Roundtrip you are applying american thinking to French culture. It simply doesnt work like that. Plus the OP KNEW THEY NEEDED the card and choose to skip it.

I have to disagree with Roundtrip.

I've bought many Carte Orange weekly coupons in Paris (after acquiring the initial &quot;kit&quot;). The OP said she &quot;asked a metro agent for assistance and after several attempts at using the automatic machines, finally got passes&quot;.

Anyway, I've observed metro agents attempting to assist people who don't speak French as best they can. Often, the agent will ask over and over again &quot;how many zones&quot; and the customers will leave in frustration because they don't know how to answer the question.

Many times I've seen agents ask if the customer already has a &quot;carte&quot; or just wants the &quot;coupon&quot; and people who do not have cards answer &quot;just the coupon&quot;.

If you don't know what you're doing, you don't know what you're doing.

She also says &quot;I had read postings about the card, but that if we did not have it, the Paris metro police did not hassle tourists over it.&quot;

I have been visiting travel forums for more than ten years, Paris specifically, and have never, ever read anything like that. Quite the opposite. Whenever there is any discussion of Carte Orange, someone always comes along and reminds everyone that they'll need a photo from the card - AND to be sure to write the card number on each weekly coupon.

&quot;That was not the case with our lovely metro policeman.&quot;

I, personally, think &quot;lovely metro policeman&quot; is disrepectful. Especially to a public official who is just doing his job.

&quot;In any event, I was very upset by the experience as it clearly appeared to be a money making activity targeted at tourists.&quot;

Whenever I've seen a ticket check on the metro or buses, they've always checked each and every person - not just those who look like tourists.

And, according to the RAPT website, Carte Orange is intended for residents only, anyway - as it is heavily funded by taxpapers.

If you read the English version of the RATP website, there is no mention of Carte Orange, rather only the passes that are intended for tourists.