Mysteries of Tour pricing...
 

I'm trying (and probably will be for a while, as this is what originally landed me on Fodors-a year ago-although my mother's illness is really what's kept us from making plans) to pick a tour of Europe (exactly where is still up for debate) for sometime next year. Needless to say, it all looks good.

We definitely prefer to take an escorted tour (for very specific logistical reasons) than to travel independently, and have looked at a number of different companies. The logic of how different tours are priced out is increasingly mysterious to me. Obviously some times of year are cheaper than others, and some destinations are just a better value. Of course, the quality of accomodations and included features will make a substantial difference, too, but some of the variation in price are just really bizarre.

Four or five hundred dollar differences on similar itineraries, with similar hotels, from companies that seem to be largely comparable much of the time. A fourteen day tour, with similar hotels and itinerary to an eleven day tour, but costing more than twice as much (same company). Nine days of Xmas markets (same region, but different itineraries), with the one with more meals and admissions costing roughly $300 less (also same company).

Do they just charge more when they feel the market will bear it? Or are they getting substantially better deals from some suppliers than others? Sometimes you look at itineraries (especially from really budget-oriented companies) and it's obvious that you get to go to X because someone is so thrilled to see a coachload of eating, drinking, shopping tourists that they all but pay the tour company to bring you, but a lot of these differences don't involve times of year or destinations where I would think that would be the case. Does anyone have thoughts on the subject?

I am also looking at tours that will take me to London, Paris and Rome. I'm reviewing Globus, Trafalgar, and Insight. There is no logic to the pricing. I just don't want to be in poor accommodations with lousy tour guides. I've only had experience with Tauck, which is great. Tauck does not go to London, Paris or Rome in the same trip. I'm anxious to learn what you learn.

Tours are priced according different criteria, including the number of people in a group, type of accommodations, time of year, etc.

A large number of tour companies use the same incoming services (local tour guides, etc.), depending on the destination. A few have their own guides at the destination (employees or partners), while others have someone who travels with the group.

The cost will also be based on what is included in the tour package. Not all tours are created equal. Few are all-inclusive, even when you are spending $500/day/person, so you need to read the fine print.

Few times I (unfortunately) ended up staying in the same hotel as tour groups, I noticed that even though different tours use the same hotel, they don't book the same class of rooms.

I noticed that Tauck usually books better rooms at hotels based on the row of luggage with "Tauck" tags placed outside rooms in the morning.

I don't know because I've taken a few tours, and have viewed more brochures, and the prices seemed to always make relative sense to me. I never noticed what you are saying, that very similar tours with the same itinerary, level of accommodations, included transportation, etc are priced very differently.

Some tours are just cheaper than others -- I suppose some of it is brand or name, but usually that is related to quality and most often accommodations, I think.

So I just never have noticed completely bizarre pricing, maybe you can give one specific example as to what you are referring to and people can comment better.

Robert makes some very good points. You definitely need to look at the fine print to see what level of guiding is included (an expert with you most of the time or just city-by-city guides), if the groups are whole bus-fulls or limited to, say 10-15 people, whether there are a lot of optional tours and meals not included that add to the bottom line, etc.

Also, some provide meals of greatly varying qualities and add extras like performances, private lectures for members, and the like. Some less expensive tours include a lot of time "shopping" which, while maybe not a bad thing for many folks, is sometimes funneled into certain shops. On the other hand, some companies that have high volumes can get better deals on hotels and airfares (though the latter is probably very much in flux right now!).

I've been able to observe different tour companies, and generally the public has or can find out a ballpark feeling of the reputation of different companies. That's why a forum like this, where travelers tell of their experiences WITHOUT FINANCIAL BENEFIT, can be so helpful.

Maybe if you mention a couple of companies you are considering and the places you want to go, folks can tell you what they got for the money and if they were happy.

K.

One has to be VERY careful when comparing companies/tours/itineraries. It isn't just hotel quality/locations, meals etc.

You also have to understand "tour speak". Things like "see Stonehenge" vs. "visit Stonehenge"; "see the Colosseum" vs. "tour the Colosseum" - "see" does not mean the same thing as "visit/tour". One, you do not get off the bus and have a brief photo op through the coach windows. The other, you actually get off the bus and go inside the place.

We're not all that picky, except about food, and would be surprised if we didn't enjoy almost any tour (I think we'd almost have to try to find one). Deciding what we would like the very best is a little more of an issue. Also cost is an issue, and will enter into this decision. So will time. We also will tend to pick tours with more included stuff, especially meals and admissions, as it makes budgeting easier, even though it leaves you a hostage to the tour's food.

We would most likely go to the British Isles, or Central or Eastern Europe. We are thinking to avoid things with whiz or whirl in the title, and anything that tries to tackle more than 3 or 4 countries in a week. We've been looking at Globus and Trafalgar, and their lower priced divisions. We've also looked at a couple of UK based companies such as Shearings and Travelsphere (which are obviously offering a substantially different product from Globus, etc.). I've gotten brochures from a couple of other companies, but they're either more expensive, or not really us, or both.

I tend to think of Globus and Trafalgar (et. al) as being fairly directly competitive with each other, and usually priced similarily on similar itineraries. The four hundred or so dollar difference is between their very slightly different 10 day jaunts around Britain from London to Edinburgh and back again.

The more than doubled 14-day trip is Globus's longer version of this jaunt. The xmas market differences are Trafalgar's. And I did think I was fairly specific about the price differences that did not make sense, even without specifying the companies.

You need to review the tour brochures with a magnifying glass.

Frequently the diferences will be - # of meals included and i they're in a hotel or an actual restaurant

What you actually do on the tour. Brochures may list all the same places, but a "visit" means you go inside, a "stop" is a 5 minute photo op outside and a "view" is a drive by in the bus. Many times this is not made clear - and they hit you up for an "optional" tour to a place you've alredy passed by.

Hotel substitution. Check not just on what hotels they list and where - but how often they substitute another. Some companies - I beleive Perillo is famous for this - substitute hotels very often - and to places that are on the edge of town - or even elsewhere (Mestre versus Venice for example).

So read every comma and then call the ones you're interested in with a VERY specific list of questions. For me, hotel substitution would be at the top.

Here's a quaint notion! Consult a travel agent! S/he will be able to translate brochures and her/his compensation would come from commissions from the tour company, not from you.

First thing, though, is to do some reading about the areas you're interested in -- your choices for now are quite broad. If you can narrow it down a bit, maybe the information overload won't seem so overwhelming. I like to buy a guidebook of an area, learn a bit about the history, culture, shopping, whatever, and then look again at some of those brochures and Web sites once I'm a little familiar with what's there.

k.

Brendan tours may have what you want. I have never been with them so I can't recommend them.

http://www.brendanvacations.com/Fron...amp;RegionID=2

Also, try GRand Circle Tours. Everyone seems to like their tours.

Now doing some of this a a business, I can tell you that "better" tours (meaning more expensive) often include more things that are "optionals" on cheaper tours. If you end up purchasing optionals on the cheaper tours, you can end up paying more than you would have with the more expensive all included packages.

It does depend on what you want and how much money you have. By the way, in Europe I generally do not take tours unless it is to someplace like Russia.

Hi per,

Keep researching.

When you are finally convinced that a tour is not worth the extra cost of a DIY, put together a draft itinerary and we will help you improve it.

From what you save by not going on a tour, you can take cabs instead of buses and hire porters to handle your luggage.

((I))

I have spoken to a travel agent, but have not wanted to torture them in detail while our plans are still so nebulous. We always book through one, but I like to have some idea what I want before I make them crazy with 50,000 questions.

We'd be interested in any of these areas (and look at it this way-we've managed to eliminate Scandinavia, the lowland countries, and all of the Mediterranean), but it's a question of priority, since we are unlikely to be able to afford to do this with any kind of frequency. Nor is it practical to include them in one trip.

I've been to the British Isles, but the only country in Central Europe (and when I say Central Europe I really mean the former Hapsburg Empire) I've visited is Austria, and I was quite small. DH and DS have never been to Europe at all.

We're a family of pretty serious history buffs and geography geeks, so we feel pretty comfortable with the background of either trip, we just need to choose! Which may take six months, and we may well pick based on value as much as anything, since we're not looking at anything that wouldn't be interesting to us.

A couple of suggestions - Rick Steves offers tours with great guides and itineraries, good accommodations, and limited group size (max 26). A bit spendy though -- we spent less than $3000 each for the 14 day "Best of Europe" tour in 2006, and I notice now it's priced at almost $4000...probably to take care of the declining value of the dollar vs. the euro, but that's been changing lately.

Not quite a tour, but worth investigating, are the packages offered through Costco. They will set up all your transportation, hotels and a few excursions, but other than that you're on your own. Long2travel - Costco does have a London-Paris-Rome package. Hotels seem to be first-rate.

Unfortunately, our logistical issues are not ones that would be easily solved by cabs and porters. Nor am I convinced that the tours are always more expensive. On some of them, you're clearly paying for convenience, but some of the British Isles itineraries in particular I was not at all sure I could duplicate for the money. Obviously there's a loss of spontaneity, but for me, it is more than made up for by the thought that someone who is not me is being PAID to be reasonably certain DH is on the bus.

&quot;<i> . . . . someone who is not me is being PAID to be reasonably certain DH is on the bus.</i>&quot;

Sorry - but tour operators are not baby sitters. Maybe you are under the impression that tour guides will escort you on/off the buses and make sure everyone is on board. Usually that is NOT the case. Normally they give you a time to meet up and if you miss it you are on your own to get to the next stop to catch up w/ the group.

meant to add - that also includes the AM departure from the hotel. Usually there is a short window for you to make it on to the coach. They will not delay departure waiting for late comers.

I don't expect them to hunt him down in the next town, but I've generally found that they don't like losing people and will make some effort to keep track of their charges (on more local tours I've taken). Of course they'll leave him if he gets REALLY lost, but I don't think they litter Europe with discarded tourists either.
He's not confused, just fairly easily distracted, and while I would not figure it as the favorite part of the job, the very nature of guided tours must attract people who need or want a little more minding than average.

long2travl - if you've only taken Tauck tours I would not do a Globus tour. I've done one Globus tour and the food was terrible, the hotels were outside of the towns, and the guide was really bad. A friend of mine recently did a Globus tour and said the guides they had were &quot;shallow&quot; meaning did not delve very deeply into the sights. I would think Trafalgar is a comparable tour but I have no knowledge of this company. I also can't speak for Insight.

When you say &quot;there is no logic to pricing&quot; there is logic, as others have pointed out. And it's often in the quality of the tour guides, food, number of sights and included tours. You have to look at each tour you're considering and write down everything offered in each tour and compare.

For instance, I took a quick look at Globus's Best of Italy and France. On the itinerary, certain sights are in red and others are in gray. I didn't see a legend but I think those places mentioned in gray type are drive bys or walk bys and you don't go into the buildings.

I'm not sure which tour you are considering with Globus but you'll be seeing many more places than Rome and Paris and this means you're cutting back on your time in Rome and Paris. That's fine if you are interested in the other towns but you specifically said you want to see London, Paris, and Rome. You only have 1 day in Paris and 1 day in Rome.

I took a Rick STeves Family tour ,, first tour I have ever taken. I have always travelled independtly to Europe, but this time was going with my 12 yr old and wanted her to have lots of fun, and see many places , without me being responsible for all logistics. We visited 5 countries in 14 days.

Guides were excellant, very knowledgable,, in Rome and Paris they also hired local experts, and they were experts..
Food was good, all breakies and 1/2 the dinners were included. Drinks were thrown in a few times.

No tacky shopping stops where the guides and bus drivers get kick backs for talking the shop up.. I would hate that, and my MIL experienced that with Globus.

No tipping. Guides are well paid, all tips are included, period, and that comes to hundreds if you are on most other tours( which may be one reason some tours LOOK cheaper) .

NO optional extra sightseeing. The folk nights etc were included.

RS is not for everyone though, you must peruse the site ,, and see if the travel philosophy appeals to you. Don't expect someone to carry your bag ,, and don't expect to have your hands held all the time. In most cities we were shown how to use the transport system, and given tickets or passes to use on our &quot; free day&quot; . You actaully will learn HOW to travel.
No wimps or whiners allowed on the tour, and they will even state that &quot; No Grumps allowed&quot; ..
Hotels were nice, clean, good central locations, a few I'd rate as exceptional,, and any one I would stay in again independently ( I kept list of all of them for other trips) .

None of the hotels we stayed in had other tour groups, most hotels too small.
Tour bus was new and seated 50. Our tour had about 27 people( which is max I think, they keep it small) on it. We all spread out and had a great time.
Wouldn't want to be on a tour with 50 other people , too large.

When the tour says there is a &quot;no tip&quot; policy, that just means the tour company takes care of the tip and it is built into the price. Do not be deceived that there is no tip for the tour director, guide, bus driver, etc., because there is. You just don't have to bother with it and figure out what you should give. Some people like to avoid that hassle.

As someone who does this work occasionally (as yet only in the US), I have companies who hire me with such a policy. In that case, before I start the tour, I know exactly what the tip will be. It makes no difference to me in the service I give, but it might to some tour directors. Of course, if people complain (and you should if the TD is not good), you won't get rehired by the company.

I do most of my work in Washington, DC, where I have a guide license, but sometimes I go outside the area.

EVERYONE takes the same photos. When you do this work, you know where all the picture points are and you always stop at them. Everyone snaps.

By the way, I just got back from a personal trip to Australia and New Zealand. I am sure most of my photos look like a lot of other folks'. It was independent travel with home exchanges homes used as bases.

The advantage to a tour is that the hassle is put on everyone else's back. However, in return, the tour (depending on what you book) can be overly regimented for my vacation travel. Many elderly people like tours (and be aware that there will be a lot of them on any tour you take--especially boat and river cruises) for the reasons I stated.

No tour directors are not babysitters, but you do lay down the rules at the beginning.

I have NEVER lost anyone, but everyone is responsible for himself. You miss the bus, you have to catch up with the tour.

Sometimes I have people who are congentially late. Generally the people on the tour take care of them. I had one guy who bought me flowers. I told him there was something he could do for me that I would really like. He knew what it was and he was never late again.

The worst problems occur with grouches, people who are really too feeble for the itinerary on the tour, and (this is the worst) when children send their alzheimer's parent on a tour to give themselves a vacation. The tour company generally gets a call if the person is too ill to be on the tour and makes arrangements for him to go home at his (or his children's) own expense. I have never had this situation, but I have heard the stories.

When you get a broken down bus or some other &quot;disaster&quot;, it is often what everyone remembers--as an adventure if it is presented right--as the highlight of the trip. Think about your past trips. Disasters make the best stories after they are over (NOT while the disaster is in progress). You just need to reassure folks that it is being handled and you are doing the best you can. Generally the bus--or whatever it is--gets fixed and they forget about it.

Thanks Lauren, excellent advice, and neat to hear about it from another perspective. You must be a great guide.
We're not elderly, and in fact DH isn't really prone to being late, just to getting lost, turned around, etc. DS is very mildly autistic, and while able to enjoy a tour and not inclined to behavior that would interfere with anyone else's enjoyment, needs (and wants)a little more watching than most children that age. I would prefer to feel free to concentrate on him, and not worry too much about where DH has wandered off too.
He will also be happier if things are reasonably predictable (he's not nearly as rigid as most children with the disorder, but still), and being given a shiny brochure with all the places we're going in black and white will make him ecstatic. Also the knowledge that there are NO deviations unless the place is on strike, the road is washed out, etc. We've actually been a little inclined to let him pick, but he's as indecisive as we are, and considerably less budget conscious.

persimmondeb: I'm really sorry to say this - but w/ your latest info, I can see a European coach tour as being a real disaster. Your son may have a mild form of autism - but the coach tour will not be able to make allowances for any problems that come up. You will be traveling w/ a group of mostly &quot;mature&quot; folks. Some quite elderly. An autistic child will be a hard fit.

For your situation, a distracted spouse and a special needs child - independent travel would seem a much better option. You could rent an apartment for a week in some wonderful city. Your husband could go off and lose himself whenever the mood strikes - and as long as he carries a paper w/ the address of your flat, he can always get directions back &quot;home&quot;.

Your son will be able to settle in and get familiar w/ one place/apartment instead of having to pack/get on the bus/unpack every day.

Also look at the Globus Monogram Trips.
They are packages so far as you get transportation from airport to hotels, hotels, a half day sightseeing tour of city and the rest of your time you are on your own. They have a host at the hotel for any questions .

Lauren, you should work for Rick Steves, they pay their guides very well,really look into it.

Perhaps you need to give your 'distracted' husband a slap round the head and tell him to start pulling his weight and acting like a grown-up instead of adding to your worries? :-)

Actually, I think a tour might be good for you and your child. A mildly autistic child shouldn't be a problem for the others on the coach - and you state that - and as long as he won't find the constant moving around too upsetting, it might be good.

Persimmon Deb.

Your hubby sounds like more of a problem then your child,, perhaps he is a bit autistic also( no, I am not kidding) , he should be helping you stay on track as you already have to be more on your toes with your child. I am familar with Aspergers, and we had a child with it on our tour, ( plus my nephew has it and I worked for 4 years in a program ) . Yes, change and deviation can create a lot of stress for you child( and therefore you) . Tours, while following predictable routes etc, can still be very disruptive, things do change, and of course , a different hotel every two days is also stressful.
I was on a cruise where I met a lady travelling with her Aspergers child, she found he did ok, but only because no matter how every thing changed, they always had the same cabin to retreat to. You will not have that.
If hubby was more help you could rent a car( that would be a constant) and spend more time in each place.

You could also consider the Rick Steves Family tours, they are geared towards kids, and that makes a difference. We had a child on the RS family tour I did this summer that obviously had Aspergers, mom though no one would notice as child is only mildly affected,, but it was somewhat noticable, so many disruptions to routines etc. The child did fine though,, but the mom really had her work cut out for her,but , she was alone, you will have hubby to help( hopefully) .

Anyways I do encourage you to travel, but really , the tours you mentions will be filled with old people,, average age on some of those tours is 60 ,, not as much fun for a kid, on our tour there was only 27 or 28 , and we had a big bus, so everyone got lots of room to spread out and relax. OUr tour had 14 kids on it too,, ages ranged from 8-17 with most being 11-14.

We have considered that, fairly seriously, but really prefer to tour around. I have been a little concerned about the combination of elderly passengers and child, but we've been fine on short tours, and think longer should be alright.
He's a quiet child, and not inclined to either temper tantrums or unpredictable behavior. Most of the time people who don't spend a lot of time with children don't notice anything unusual, since he is quiet and generally well-behaved.
He's intellectually extremely capable, but his personality is markedly young (think 9 or 10, rather than 13). He's high-functioning enough that he makes up for his difficulty in understanding social situations by being very, very reserved, and there's rarely a peep out of him unless he's feeling very comfortable.

Tauck is definitely high end. My parents have friends who have done several of their tours - and then did a Perillo with relatives - and hated it. Said fod was awful, hotels at the end of hell and gone - and their hand was always out for extras. (After the first dinner was so bad they did all the others on their own.)

If yuo liked Tauck I would stick with them -or a similar price elvel - or you may be disappointed.

As for keeping track of people - I have been on only 2 tous - well - relly one a tour (Russia when that was the only way to go) and a London/Amsterdam.Paris package that was free. On the latter they ended up leaving one couple behing in Amsterdam - since the idiot husband had leaned out over a canal boat and their passports dropped out of his pocket and into the water. They had to stay there an extra day and then get themselves to Paris.

Another couple on the tour - who were late for everything - were eventually left behind on a half day tour outside the city. They had been given warnings about being late and after 10 minutes - again - the guide simply said - let's go. They eventually turned up at the hotel that evening - all put out that they had had to organize a taxi - at high price - to get back to town. (There was a train option but they couldn't figure it out.)

After that they were only 5 minutes late for everything. And at the end didn't want to tip, at which point one outspoken person gave it to them - how many times they had held up the group, how inconsiderate they were, and how lucky they hadn't been left behind more often.

Hubby is probably not quite on the spectrum, but is a little unusual, and is becoming somewhat hard of hearing to boot. I do not drive, and do not want him to do so in a foreign country. It is true that DH may be more of an issue for the old people than DS. He's certainly louder.

We think, and so does DS, that he'll be fine with moving around, as we've done a fair amount of independent travel that involves that. He enjoys the novelty of a new hotel room, restaurants, etc. What drives him nuts is when we plan to do something and it doesn't happen because we have either miscalculated something or been distracted by another fun thing. He's quite convinced we do this stuff on purpose. He does understand about circumstances beyond control, but he's only fairly recently stopped blaming us for weather-related issues.

The only kid-related tours I've looked at are the Disney ones, and not only are they out of the question on cost, most of them don't look like a great match for our interests. It is something of a family joke (and holds true for my sisters as well) that if we find a restaurant, destination, resort, etc. appealing, it is sure to be full of older patrons.

I think your son would have fit in fine on the two tours I was on. They had a wide age range of people, although most were over 45, of course. There were actually a few under that age (adults), and a couple teens traveling with parents. I think they had a good enough time, but the tours I took were not full of &quot;elderly&quot; people. There were only a couple over the age of 70, probably. If you can find out that kind of thing (general age range), that might be good.

The tours I were on were more budget/midrange, but still had excellent accommodations so I had no complaints. Unfortunately, the company is out of business as they were very good (TWA Getaway Tours), but I think going budget/midrange might ensure greater diversity. Also, the tours I took did not have hardly any included meals (except breakfast) or side tours, and I chose that for a reason, because I wanted to do things a lot on my own, especially eating. However, if you choose a tour that has mostly included everything, I do think you are going to get a definitely older group.

Went on a Rome/Tuscany tour in 2005 with Trafalgar. Nice bus, tour guide and most important, wonderful hotel accomodations. They were all 5 star, just beautiful.

Only downside for me was that the tours were very fast pace. Always moving.

Hope this helps.

MS2008, does Trafalgar do tours where you pick the level of hotel accommodations you're interested in (and interested in paying for)? I always thought of Trafalgar as more of a mid-level tour company, and didn't think they offered 5* accommodations.

persimmondeb. I wish you best of luck. At least you have lots of time to do more research ,, check out many other travel forums( try tripadvisor.com and frommers maybe? )
I think that you will find something that fits eventually. I would steer away from anything too cheap( in comparision to like tours with other companies) as that usaully means more hands out for extras, and hotels in less central areas( making it harder to enjoy the free time given).

Good luck!!

Thanks!

For the suggestion that I work for Rick Steves, I am flattered. 90% of my work is in Washington, DC, where I hold a tour guide license (there is a test here). I actually can earn more money by basically staying here. Going abroad to do back to back versions of the same tour is very strenuous and gets old quickly. Also, in DC I get more money because I have the license. Overseas tours work at a lower base rate than what I am paid--really.

I wouldn't mind occasional work overseas, but not for months on end. You know those fast paced tours? The tour guides go to bed after the guests and get up before they do. It is exhausting. If you have been on tours abroad, you may notice that most of the tour directors are young. They burn out quickly.

Thanks again.

DS is leaning towards the British Isles, and we're thinking our money may go a little farther (Globus has some really low-priced packages). His only absolute must see is Stonehenge, and is just really excited about the whole idea of taking a tour. As a result there are at least six (and a couple of Trafalgar's) that meet his criteria.

He understands that we can only take one, and cannot mix and match, but he's not good at looking at the prices before he starts chirping &quot;Ooh, the Highlands! Ooh, this one has TWO ferries on the Irish sea! Oxford! Mom, have you ever been to Chester?&quot;

I think he'll be fine, and he likes busses. A few of the diferences are still a little mysterious to me, but I'm sort of taking it on faith that they're accounted for by the locations of the similar sounding hotels, or that the specific things you're being taken to (and I'm fairly good at deciphering tourspeak) are cheaper than the ones on the other tour. Or that they're contracted for slightly higher end meals, etc.

Out of necessity, we'll need to be pretty close to the bottom of the market, but since we have no intention of purchasing &quot;options&quot;, we're trying to make sure that we don't take a tour where we'll be really annoyed by having to miss one. We don't have a lot of must sees, and we are the kind of travellers who like to just wander around.

Your posts really confuse me - but you know what you want so go for it.

• You describe a family situation that would seem custom made for independent travel, but prefer a tour.

• You say &quot;<i>we are the kind of travellers who like to just wander around.</i>&quot; - but want to take a semi-low end, totally regimented tour. There is little to no &quot;wander around time&quot; on most UK coach tours. Especially the cheaper ones since they keep on the move.

• You want to save money - yet plan on paying a premium to take a tour. For a family, independent travel can be <u>significantly</u> cheaper. Self catering cottages or B&amp;B family rooms will be MUCH cheaper than the accommodations portion of any tour.

I just don't get it.