Line Cutting in Europe
 

My family was in Europe in August and all of us were struck by the rampant line cutting we experienced (we were in Switzerland, France and the Netherlands). Everywhere we went, we noticed what in the U.S. would be an abnormal number of people of all ages blatantly cutting lines. If a line was wide and there was room to slither ahead of you along the side, someone would do it (very common in Disneyland Paris). If we were in line and leaned to one side to put down a bag, the person behind us would try to slip into our spot. I actually admonished a few people who tried to cut us and noticed that they just waited and cut the people behind us. After an unpleasant confrontation with a man on a metro station ticket line, we decided that this was just part of the culture (with the exception of the English) and tried to let it go. My 15 year old commented on what would happen to all of these folks if they acted like that in NYC!

Has anyone noticed this? Interestingly, early in our trip I was chatting with an English woman who mentioned how Europeans do not get the concept of lines. I had not noticed this on other trips to Europe but it had been 4 years since I was last in Europe. On this trip of two weeks and three countries, it was hard to miss.

The San Francisco Chronicle's travel section today had an article on exactly this problem--it is a royal pain. I've finally developed the art of using my elbows to fend off people who try to cut in front of me, but I always feel rude doing so.

During our first trip to Europe, Italy specifically, my husband & I were somewhat shocked that folks did not "respect" our waiting in line at the airport.

We were queued up for the ticket counter, which was not open yet, at the venice airport. Standing back a respectable amount of space, and a customer just came right in front and hugged the counter and began to wait. We witnessedthis type of behavious contstanly. We chalked it up to the culture. But it was difficult getting used to.

Underhill, I just read the Chronicle article you referenced (thanks for pointing it out). The writer mentions how lines have broken down in the U.S. but his comments then unwittingly point out the difference between the U.S. and continental Europe on waiting your turn. If it is not obvious, Americans will indeed ask the person next to them if they were first. In Europe, they not only do not ask but they push ahead of you even when it is obvious that you were first and even when there is a real line. I also agree with DAJ that even when you accept it as a cultural thing, it is difficult to quietly put up with.

Just put it down to either rudeness or ignorance.

What do two English persons do when they meet abroad ?

- Form a line ! ;-)

Seriously, I do appreciate the discipline and courtesy that displays in forming lines when waiting. I also can confirm that elsewhere on the continent the art of forming a line has not yet been learned to full extent. But I also happen to notice that things show a tendency to the better. At least at bank counters people will leave some gap to ensure privacy - at least if they are reminded by respective signs that tend to be put up more and more around here.

Hi E,

When in Rome, do as the Romans do, or else you will be waited on last.

My Lady Wife refuses to act "rudely" when other people cut in line.

One year we went to see the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace. We arrived early and secured a place at the fence. People began oozing up to and in front of us. I kept pushing them away.

My LW, however, simply let them ooze. At the start of the ceremony, we were in row 29.

First of all, this talk about "rudeness" is irrelevant since Europeans do not view this behavior as "rude" at all, which is why they do it.

Unfortunately, if you asked THEM what they thought of YOU patiently waiting in line, they would probably call it stupid.

Yes, in Rome and all that but again, they don't consider it rude...sorry.

Queues aren't hard-wired into the human psyche. So a propensity to form them will obviously vary fom place to place.

So generalising about "Europe" in this respect is really rather pointless. THe thought that Russians would behave in the same way as Turks or Spaniards has to be very silly.

Nonetheless, even in Britain, the queue culture has more or less disappeared, except in banks and post offices. One fascinating sight these days is watching those of us from the queue-respecting generation struggling at bus stops with the (far more numerous) adolescents and immigrants who've never learned about the philosophy. Forgiveable in the Bosnians: but in the case of the native-born, the result of socially irresponsible parents.

Oddly, even in Scandinavia the philosophy of the queue is a thing of the past. Stand in the queue for a Swedish ski-lift, and compare the grisly, bruising experience with what happens in Colorado or Idaho.

Don't get so upset about it, if you see people pushing in front of you, adopt similar tactics.

That said, in smart European boutiques, I've never ever queued, the assistants will always take my purchases from me and have them packed and waiting for me before I've even re-addressed my appearance in the changing rooms. In the Dries van Noten store in Antwerp, they even handwrote the receipt, a fantastic touch.

Airline queues, I always jump in front to the Club check-in, even if I'm not flying Club.

The all-time world champion line cutters are the cute little nuns attending the Pope's Wednesday Vatican audience.

The "ugly american" tourist has nothing on the German and Russian tourists.If you want to generalise then we are angels in comparison.

Cutting into lines in Europe has been going on since at least when I first went nearly 30 years ago. American courtesy is interpreted as a weakness to be exploited by Europeans. Britain is the only place where a queue is respected, at least by the natives.

In many establishments number machines have been installed so that everybody knows their place, e.g. in Haarlem the post office and international train office have them. Look around when you enter to see if people have the numbered coupons in their hands.

Stay close to the person ahead of you at all times and pay attention to people coming up to the line. When people cut you off do not hesitate to give them the thumb indicating that they stand behind you. Speaking English will only earn you a phony puzzled look by the expert line crashers.

Note: My comments are aimed mostly at situations in which there IS a line. I am not talking so much about whether people form a line as how they approach already exisiting lines. I do not think people need to be taught to wait their turn when it is so obvious. By the way, if they do not think it is rude, why do they have a number system in SNCF boutiques in Paris? Obviously, they recognize the concept of everyone waiting their turn. Just because people do something does not mean they think it is okay. It may just be the way things are done. I would love to hear from some Europeans on how line cutting is viewed or if it is even an issue.

E w/kids: I'm not sure what it is you intended to say. I've lived in 4 countries in Europe and traveled nearly everywhere. The fact is that lines are not respected, at least not by locals who recognize you as an American and that identification is not difficult for them to do. As for 'teaching' them, give them the thumb or stand there and seethe. I prefer to let them know I was already there, and if they don't go behind me I step in front of them. It's my time in that line and I'm not going to waste it on some Italian teenagers.

As for the SNCF it is the same as I mentioned for the NS in NL. The number machines allow people to sit down and relax, and/or browse the pamphlets and schedules.

Sorry Hopscotch, I was really addressing some of the other comments that were focused on the actual formation of a line and how perhaps it is not just a custom in some places. I was just clarifying that I was speaking primarily of situations where a line has already been formed. By the way, our experience was that all types of folks cut lines, including families. I did react the way you suggested and one of those incidents (Paris Metro ticket booth) came close to a physical confrontation (both sides backed off before it got that far). That is when we decided that we needed to be mindful of how far we took our protests.

In my experience, the world's champs for rude line-cutting are (in no particular order): Germans, French, and Israelis. When I holler, they shape up. I have no hesitation...at confrontation.

Yes, I did notice one day in a long long line to see an special exibit in the Musee d'Orsay I could not believe my eyes the way they cut the line. And they were French too. Of course many more stayed in line.

It has been my experience in Italy that lines are simply not respected. The last time we were leaving Marco Polo an Italian "gentleman" and his daughter cut the line to go through security and caused quite an uproar among those left waiting but the airline staff did nothing. Imagine my delight when he tried the same thing at JFK in New York to get through customs when I was able to tell him that he was in my country now and the line begins back there. He still tried to remain in line ahead of many others but was quickly put in his place by several travelers and eventually took himself to the back of the line. I hope that he had more sense that to continue that behavior in New York because it could get very ugly.

>USNR: your comments remind me of the summer evening in Pennsylvania when we took our Israeli houseguest to the local Dairy Queen (soft serve ice cream stand). The line moved extremely slowly, and it took about 20 minutes to have our order filled.

Our guest was incredulous. She told us over and over that in Israel, the quiet line of customers waiting their turn would never have happened. She described scenes of pushing, yelling, etc that surprised me.

We travel a good bit, but haven't really experienced what others here describe. But then again, I'm not one to let folks push ahead of me, so perhaps I've never noticed, or not noticed enough to form an idea of cultural differences in line queing.

Do you think there will be a separate line at the Pearly Gates for us Americans?

Could someone please help me find the article in the SF Chronicle?

I am amazed that anyone finds there is a difference in Europe.

Wherever I go at home, folks attempt to "cut" the line all over the place - at the movies, at museums, at the grocery stores - everywhere.

Is there anyone who doesn't notice folks in the "10 Items or Less" line with many, many more items?

Then, there are those who sent one person to get in line, when a huge groups joins them closer?

And, here in the States, many folks use the "First Class" line at the airports and "Club Members" line at the hotel, even though they do not belong to either and get away with it all the time.

It could NOT be more obvious that Line Jumpers "get away with it" whenever you choose not to object. If you are determined to be polite no matter what, even when others deliberately take advantage of same, that gets you into "row 29", despite that you were there first.

In my experience, a loud "Hey! or Whoah" works just fine, along with physically restraining them from pushing their way in. For sure, the line cutters need only move a few folks back, but at least they haven't stepped ahead of you...

There are less than considerate people all over the planet, along with very, very pushy people everywhere. If you permit them step in ahead of you, well, they will.

For me, the most atrocious line skippers are at Ladies Rooms, where some attempt to march up to the front (pretending not to notice a very long line). Again, any serious objection (in any language), as opposed to pretending not to notice works wonders.

After 6 years living in France it still drives me crazy when people push in front of me when I'm waiting in a queue. I just can't get used to it!

In fact, at the supermarket, airport check-in queue, etc., I'm always on the look out for those lurking opportunists who'll suddently saunter in front of you and pretend they've been there all along. There's no way I'll put up with people pushing in.

Another thing that drives me mad is people who plonk their basket down in the checkout line at the supermarket and then go off and continue shopping, expecting everyone to wait their turn behind the basket, even if they're gone 5 minutes.

In Lyon last year I got into a huge shouting match with a guy who'd pushed into the queue at an art gallery. It was a popular exhibition and there was a long line of people waiting for tickets, and this guy and his friends just elbowed their way into the queue behind us. We'd been waiting 20 minutes and were nearly at the ticket desk, and I turned to the guy and told him that there was a queue and the end of it was out the door and down the street. He replied that if he went to the end of the queue he'd have to wait ages to get in!! When I told him that everyone else had to wait so why shouldn't he, he started shouting "who are you, the police" and telling me he could do what he wanted. The fact is, in France, it seems to be considered rude to confront someone behaving in a selfish or pushy manner. But there's nothing I can do about that, except try and live with it, and remember not to take it personally!

I had to read a fair way through the thread, but I think I've figured out that "line cutting" does not refer to the vandalising of telephone wires. It's "queue jumping", right? Queues are still very much in vogue in all English-speaking countries that I've been to in the last year (which is pretty well all of them), but you can usually rely on our Oriental residents to try and jump them. Some Europeans too.

Whoa! Not all behavior is the same. Yes, Germans do push and try to improve their line positions. Surprize, line order is much respected in Poland. It is also possible to reserve a line place. Regularly I hear people ask where the line ends! Best system is in Chicago...All present know where the end of the line is. They will loudly point it out to any queue jumper. Business schools teach many ways businesses can use queues to identify service programs. Chances are if the line is long the place may not be worth visiting. Disney posts the 'wait time'. Is it worth 60 minutes to get a 3 minute ride? One bank in Seattle tried to guarantee a minimal wait time with a time penalty for the bank. The practice was dropped as they learned people were queueing to simply collect the earned wait fee!

USNR-I can tell you that in a line-cutting competition, if one existed, those little nuns at the Wednesday audience would kick German, French and Israeli butt.

hanl wrote: The fact is, in France, it seems to be considered rude to confront someone behaving in a selfish or pushy manner.


French defense/foriegn policy all makes sense now.

We've been fairly lucky...when we lived in central Germany for several months, we found most people behaving quite orderly in lines at the bakery, grocery store, etc. And here in Brussels, I can't recall anyone trying to cut in line at the bank, supermarket, shops, at least not recently. There aren't any "lines" to speak of for the bus or streetcars, it's more of a scrum, but that's pretty much the same in U.S. cities as well.
We do get those shoppers who like to stake a place in line with their cart or basket and then dart off to do some more shopping. If they're not back by the time it's "their" turn, we just push their basket out of the way.
The worst line cutters, in our experience, are on the ski slopes. Americans (and Canadians) are slopeside paragons of politeness and consideration compared to the average European skier, who thinks nothing of barging in front of you and tramping across your skis--they seem to go out of their way to push past anyone with new skis--the more damage they can cause to those new skis, the better. And the American habit of single skiers stepping to the side and calling out "single?" to find someone else to ride up the chair with, in Europe, forget about it!

Are European children not taught in school to form lines and wait patiently (for lunch, water fountains, etc.)?

My husband is a "burly man" on the outside and a teddy bear (or "girlie man") on the inside, so we usually don't have a problem with people trying to cut in front of us in line. I can, however, recall one incident of line cutting, or queue jumping, that occured in Rome, at Santa Maria in Cosmedian, in line for the Boca della Verita (Mouth of Truth).

We arrived around the same time as a group of young French students, and patiently queued up with them to await our opportunity to stick our hand in the mouth, hope it didn't get bitten off, and have our picture taken. The line moved fairly smoothly as we made pleasant conversation with the young adults around us. Just as we approached the front of the line, a tour bus of older french tourists pulled up and began disembarking. The kids behind us started getting restless, fearing that the bus tourists would jump in line.

It was finally our time to have our one minute opportunity with the "stone face" (we had paitiently waited at least 10-15 minutes). I positioned myself with the camera as my husband walked up to the Mouth of Truth to slip his hand into the jowels. Before he could get his hand into position, one of the women from the bus appeared from nowhere and slipped her hand into the mouth as the rest of the tour group began to crowd around!! My husband would have none of that...he thrust his hand into the mouth along side the ignorant woman's hand, curled his lip, left out a growl, and barked to the group to "get to the back of the line and wait your turn like the rest of us have." The woman turned white, pulled out her hand, and obediently retreated with the rest of the group to queue up behind the french students, who proceeded to applaud my husband. (They say the French don't usually respond to the English language, but they did that time!)

We hoped that perhaps the older adults had learned a lesson that day, and wouldn't be as abnoxious on the rest of their bus tour. In this situation the young adults were much more well- mannered than the older folks. Or, were the older folks actions just "tour bus mentality?" Peace. :)>-

Robyn

Djkbooks: I travel all the time in the States, all over the country. I also work in mid-town Manhattan. While there are certainly people here who will try to cut lines, my experience is that they are not the norm. During our two weeks in Europe, I experience more line cutting than I have in 10 years here in the States. No comparison.

I haven't noticed this in Ireland except for the bus. We queue sometimes for the bus and when it arrives its every man for themselves! Grannies will kill you if you are in their way.

This did happen a lot to me when I was in China many years ago as they knew we could not really say anything to them when they cut in front of us as out Chinese was basic. They would elbow eachother if you got in front of them etc. Finally in a bank I was getting cut in the queue again so I elbowed this woman and she backed off...respect for the big nosed foreign devil was given because I fought back (My nose is not that bbg its just a translation of some of the things we were referred to!). It was so funny at the time.

Yes, I've noticed lack of respect for lines in Paris noticeably at CDG! Also there is lack of courtesy while walking on the sidewalks too-we gotta jump out of their way or else...

Although it's contrary to the politesse shown in ordinary conversations, I guess it's a culture thing.

Living in San Francisco affords me lots of opportunities for line cutting, lack of courtesy, etc. on a daily basis so it's not just a European thing.

Are you kidding me? This practice has been going on in the U.S. since the dark ages and in England since the late 80's (except at rock concerts, where it goes back further). In London, stand in the queue to take a bus, and you'll see all hell break loose when the bus arrives.

I remember one Rolling Stone concert in particular where I caught a woman accompanied by a boyfriend, both dressed as aging rockers, take advantage of a space in the ladies room queue inadvertently made by a woman not holding her queue ground. Apparently everyone behind her wanted to voice objection, but didn't until I yelled "cutter!" and the whole crowd of women joined in, creating a bit of a scene. Needless to say, they were ceremoniously pushed out of the line. Don't underestimate the ire of women waiting to pee while Mick Jagger is singing. Yes, we got our "satisfaction".

This socialist attitude of Americans towards queues is quite weird!
We all know life is a struggle and everyone must compete and fight to achieve something in life.
How can you can ever be successful if you passivly wait for your turn?

Line cutters! You rule, man!

Because it's hard to <i>be</i> successful unless you <i>look</i> successful and it's even harder to look successful with a bloodied nose?

Hmm... I'm not sure if it's me but I get terribly 'upset' if a queue isn't respected. Then again, I was brought up in a very old-school English way of doing things. Unfortunately this has dissipated of late, much to my chagrin.

I must admit that I wasn't aware that this was such an issue in the States, since I have had my fair share of boiled blood as a result of being queue jumped there... maybe I was just unlucky? (Don't go jumping in with both feet and getting all defensive, I'm just speaking from personal experience).

Personally I believe that if, say, there are two cash machines working, everyone should form one queue and the person at the front simply go to the first one that becomes available - to me this is merely common sense but then perhaps I spend too much time dreaming of a Utilitarian uptopia..!?

Going off at a slight tangent (which I hope will make sense!), I flew into the States a few years back and was going down an escalator. )For those of you who don't know, over here there is a standard practice whereby you stand on the right hand side of an escalator, allowing people to walk on the left if they choose). There were a group of American teenagers in front of me who had been on my plane and obviously visiting London on holiday; one girl said - &quot;Ohh, it's so nice to be able to stand on the side you want, I've realy missed that! Mind you, I guess the British way does make sense&quot; - I didn't know whether to laugh or cry! What has happened to plain old common sense and everyday courtesy?!?!

(Sorry, don't mean to sound like a right old whinger, this whole thing just happens to be one of my pet hates!!)

Finally, something (wait in line) that Americans do better than Europeans!!
Actually, you ain't seen nothin' in terms of push-pull-elbow-grab-snarl crowds until you are in the middle of a crowd of Mexican shoppers visiting the US during the traditional semana santa (Holy Week) shopping vacation trip to San Antonio. Beats the paint off the more polished line cutting techniques I've experienced in Europe.