I can top that: try taking the SF Muni metro at rush hour. All of a sudden these elderly Asians become very strong giving you a good jab in the gut if you try to beat them to a seat!!

And I'm talking about a regular seat not the senior/handicapped seats. The regular seats are for everyone.

janeg,
SF.Chron. Travel Section John Flinn's article page 3 toward the end.

Brilliant ! 'Rampant line cutting ... everywhere we went' Makes it sound like Europe is awash with crazed queue jumpers .... travelling in packs, no doubt frothing at the mouth !

My advice is - embrace the thing that causes you anger. Learn to love it.

God knows I used to get so worked up about all the loud americans i encountered during my travels .... i couldn't understand why people so badly dressed would draw attention to themselves by speaking so much louder than anyone around them. They seemed to be oblivious to others around them, forcing us to be privy to excrutiatingly ridiculous conversations inevitably starting with 'Well, in America we .... bla bla bla'. I really wanted to publicly berate them for their insensitivity.

But a wise man gave me the advice i mentioned earlier, and added that it's our differences, not our similarities that make the world so interesting. Learn to love our differences.

So now when i encounter american tourists being inconsiderately loud, or subjecting us to extreme-fashion , i do not grind my teeth or stare in disbelief .... i smile and say thank you america for entertaining the rest of us with your antics.

(I've applied the same level of tolerance to queue jumpers and i'm happy to report i no longer get upset to the point of writing letters to the editor about that either)

"Yes, in Rome and all that but again, they don't consider it rude."

Just last week I twice stood in large lines/crowds to apply for and then pick up a visa, at the Indian consulate in Milan. Both times, Italians complained about how the Indians cut the line - a definite case of the pot calling the kettle black!

In northern Italy, at any rate, it's acceptable to tell someone off for line-cutting, or to insist that you were there first.


best regards,
Deirdré Straughan

http://www.straughan.com

I've read this thread with some fascination because until our last European trip we had not encountered enough line cutting to notice.

However, arriving in Paris by train on the eve of a rail strike, we found a taxi queue snaking through the entire station. It was at least an hour wait to get to the taxi stand. Everyone was very patient and we struck up conversations with an American family and a French couple adjacent to us.

As we reached the front of the line, a well-dressed French woman (aren't they all?) in her '60's blatently attempted to cut into line just ahead of the French couple with whom we had been chatting. We were appalled, but didn't feel as foreigners that we should be the ones to confront her.

To our astonishment, no one else did! The French couple sort of shrugged their shoulders as if to say, "What can you do?" My husband finally indicated to her with gestures that she should be at the back of the line, but she pretended not to understand, or not to give a damn.

I couldn't help but think that anywhere in the US this woman would have been shamed into retreating to the back of the line. That seems to be the difference. Line cutting or queue jumping happens everywhere, but the tolerance for it certainly differs.

Then there is the total lack of a queue that we have for many years called "a Romanian line," based on our experience buying train tickets in Romania in 1974. We had never seen anything like it. :-D

Thanks for the mention of that SF Chronicle article by John Flinn.

<b>Comforts of home: rock 'n' roll, ethnic food, plumbing</b>

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...RGJE8HDTT1.DTL

At the end of the article, Flinn writes...

&quot;In Havana and throughout Cuba, they've developed a brilliant method of maintaining order without tedious line-standing. At a bus stop or ice cream stand, each newcomer who approaches a seemingly random crowd calls out, &quot;El &uacute;ltimo?&quot; Someone raises his hand, and the newcomer remembers: I'm after him. When the bus arrives or the ice cream vendor's ready to serve another customer, everybody knows who's next.

What makes this different than a Starbucks mob asking each other whether they're in line is that it's a well-honed system, and everybody follows it. I've watched it in action, and it works.

If we ever lift the embargo against Cuba, this is one custom we really ought to import.&quot;

<i>First of all, this talk about &quot;rudeness&quot; is irrelevant since Europeans do not view this [line-cutting] behavior as &quot;rude&quot; at all, which is why they do it.</i>

How can we be so sure they don't? Maybe they (or many of them) do view it as rude behavior but simply don't want any confrontation over it.

As others have noted, no one protests in countries like Italy and France. It's as if you get what you deserve for being outsmarted. The few times I have protested, I have been in the wrong, and it was roundly pointed out (for instance, it seems to be okay to break into line at the train station if you had been there previously, discovered that either you or the ticket agent had made a mistake on your ticket and you have to go back to correct--or discuss your options EVEN further [why can't people decide before they go to the ticket agent what train or route they want to take?]). Another time, I mildly protested a women who seemed to have cut in line in a very small butcher's shop. The shop owners and customers politely pointed out to the straniera (that would be me) that the woman already had a place in line, had waited outside on bench because it was hot and she wasn't well, and that she had merely stepped into the shop when it was her turn.

This line cutting teaches you to be alert and get your elbows out. It also helps being taller than average. More than once I have just reached over the shoulder of the &quot;pusher&quot; to transact my business.

Capo, I am with you. I suspect they do, they just will try to get away with it. It is their way of one upping, perhaps? Anyway, I have lived in Europe for 7 years (3 different places) and they are all the same, with the Hungarians being the worst. However, one hard look and an emphatic Nein or Nem and they give way sheepishly. I have only had to ram one old woman with my stroller. :p
Cheers,
Jan

I really am a gentle, civilized person. But line cutting brings out the savage beast in me. When I read your last remark, SloJan, I found myself thinking, &quot;Good for you!&quot;

Thanks, SloJan.

Hopscotch had written, &quot;<i>American courtesy is interpreted as a weakness to be exploited by Europeans.</i>&quot; and one could, I'd think, expand that to say &quot;the courtesy of <i>anyone</i> can be intrepreted as a weakness by those who are not courteous or respectful of conventions.&quot;

Hanl asserts that &quot;<i>The fact is, in France, it seems to be considered rude to confront someone behaving in a selfish or pushy manner.</i>&quot; which, <i>if</i> true, is rather amazing. It's considered rude -- or equally rude -- to confront someone who's acting rude?

My most recent memory of line-cutters was when a former girlfriend &amp; I were in line at the Naples train station to buy tickets for heading back to Rome. A group of four or five teenage boys were trying to cut in line from both sides and I just told her &quot;keep your elbows about and be determined to hold your ground.&quot; She covered our left flank while I covered our right and the boys finally gave up and cut in somewhere behind us. Victory was sweet! :)

&quot;First of all, this talk about &quot;rudeness&quot; is irrelevant since Europeans do not view this [line-cutting] behavior as &quot;rude&quot; at all, which is why they do it.&quot;

Come now. How could Europeans or anyone not realize that line cutting is rude and shows a lack of respect for others?

But, of course, I suppose that if becoming a victim of a rude line cutter is the worst thing that happens to you, you've had a pretty good day.

Byrd

&quot;Hanl asserts that &quot;The fact is, in France, it seems to be considered rude to confront someone behaving in a selfish or pushy manner.&quot; which, if true, is rather amazing. It's considered rude -- or equally rude -- to confront someone who's acting rude?&quot;

Capo, that's the only explanation I can come up with for why people in France often act so outraged when you politely point out that they have jumped the queue, or that they've just whacked you with their large and heavy backpack, or that their dog is sitting on your luggage and perhaps they would be so kind as to remove it (all 3 situations have happened to me in the last 2 months, and each time I politely commented the response was sheer outrage, indignation and anger).

I hadn't read this, because I thought it was bout phone calls. Till I read Scarlett's HELL thread:)

There are rude people everywhere on this planet. How about the way some Americans stay in the passing lane on highways instead of passing and then returning to the slower lane.
Europeans seem to be much better at this than we are. So maybe things even out.

I guess I am lucky, but the only time I have experienced a real problem with line cutting was by an older British couple in the Rome FCO. When I got irritated and tried to hold my ground, they called me a &quot;typical American&quot;. This really amused me! I'm more of a typical New Yorker (aren't we known for supposedly being pushy and rude? ) I stole a phrase from Mr T, and said, &quot;This time, I'll let you live.&quot; while glaring at them. The other Brits were not amused by their behavior, however!

Leisa, loved your stereotypical comments about American tourists. Aside from shorts, Europeans now seem to dress very much like Americans, at least the ones I saw in Switzerland, France and the Netherlands (funny how Americans are supposedly such jokes but Europeans cannot buy into our culture fast enough). Also, the Americans I ran into were no louder than the Europeans I saw. The point about line cutting is not meant in any way to imply that Europeans are overall ruder than Americans, it is just one thing that really struck me (and apparently others). The great majority of people I met in Europe were very nice and courteous. However, line cutting is not like talking loud or dressing in a way that you do not like -- it is a rude and disrespectful practice. The line cutter is well aware that he or she is doing it and their attitude is that you do not matter.

Demo, in general you are correct about Europeans using the passing lane for passing only. It is the law. The scofflaws are Dutch drivers towing a camper van (<i>caravan</i> to them). They love to cruise along two abreast with those things and block expressways in Germany and France. No head is harder than that of a Dutchman at the wheel.

sognatrice2, way to go! I might try that line in the future.

&quot;This time I'll let you live&quot; -- priceless!

Which brings to mind a little incident that took place in Capri this summer. We were first in line for the bus. The front part of the queue path extended out into the sun. We started the line under the covered part in the shade. People followed behind us. It was not a big line, about 5 people in all, and since this was the beginning of the bus ride, you knew we'd get on and get a seat. This guy shows up, and walks to the front of the line in the sun, seeing us standing there in the shade. I did all I could to hold my husband back, but as soon as that bus arrived, he got out of the line, ran to the front, and parked himself in front of this guy. I don't think it proved anything, but it made my husband feel better.

I think that there is something of a different conception of when a line is formed and when not. If a clear line exists, they are normally observed in Germany, at least I can?t remember when someone tried to cut a line at the exit of a supermarket or in a similar situation.

On the other hand, I once nearly jumped a line in front of a bus in England. I was even first at the bus stop and could see that over the time of maybe 20 minutes people started to form a tight line between steel rails to wait in a queue to enter an empty bus. It stroke me as one of the most senseless things I?ve ever seen. I mean, standing close top each other, without having the opportunity to walk around, look into shop windows etc. just to enter a bus according to some rigid order 30 seconds earlier or later? But when the bus arrived, I nearly walked to the entrance out of pure habit before I remembered the queue, but only because it was that obvious. If there hadn?t been the steel rails and I hadn?t watched it form, I would have ignored it since I didn?t expect it to be there.
So if someone decides to form a queue in Germany, it doesn?t mean that everybody else considers forming a queue in that moment to be sensible and then many will ignore it. I could very well have been the person jumping Surfergirl?s line of 5 people waiting to enter an empty bus because I wouldn?t have noticed that anyone might actually care to enter the bus in a certain order. And if someone stood up for his right to be first in the line, I would consider him rather odd since I wouldn?t understand why he cared.

Another difference is that at least in Germany, people in front of three counters often don?t form one but three lines. So if you?re standing in a line in front of the first counter for 10 minutes, this doesn?t mean that you have an increased right to be served at counter 2. It?s a stupid habit, in my opinjon, but that?s often the etiquette. Of course it doesn?t mean that the etiquette might not change an hour later to a single queue approach.

The whole thing is just a little bit more fluid and I think that people are served more or less in the order of their arrival, so it?s not considered to be a big deal if it isn?t the exactly rigid order of having arrived somewhere.

Hans:Our experiences with German tourists and in Germany are quite a bit different than you describe.The line jumpers we came across could not have been in any doubt.

Europewithkids - but this is my point exactly .... every nation has its stereotypes, real or perceived ...
Fact is, not all Italians drive like lunatics, not all French are obnoxious, not every American is loud, not all Australians are brash, not many Germans are boring ... and let me tell you queue jumping is not a european phenomenon, it is alive and well all over the world.
just as it is silly of me to suggest all americans dress badly so is it of you to suggest that it took a trip to europe to notice that people have less respect for each other these days.
when it comes to lack of respect for others i'm thinking stones and glass houses - you're comment about Europeans eagerness to buy into american culture .... the word we use is GLOBALISATION - now don't get me started on THAT !
EMK, i do think queue jumping is somewhat annoying. rude and disrespectful is a bit OTT. I sampled the 18 staff in my office (we are from Italy, Germany, Sweden, Spain, Denmark, Finland, South Africa, Guinea, Australia, Ireland,and Belgium)we decided it's considered no more than a 'bit of cheek' probably resulting in a good 'ol confabulation with the complete stranger standing next to you.
i just couldn't resist replying to you as you unwittingly perpetuated your own stereotype by posting comments that imply America sets the benchmark, and that benchmark can be enforced abroad.

Sorry Leisa, you and your coworkers are a bit off the mark on this one. Queue jumping IS rude, especially if others have been waiting in line for some time, it's more than just a bit of &quot;cheek.&quot; It indicates that the line jumper feels HIS time is much more valuable than YOURS. IOW, selfish and rude. And like it or lump it, Americans ARE better than Europeans at waiting in line at some places, such as ski resorts. The Europeans we know who've skied in the U.S. come back amazed at how polite Americans are in lift lines--what would be considered out of bounds behavior in a U.S. lift line is simply the norm in Europe (in fact, persistent line jumping at some ski resorts can result in the offender having their lift ticket revoked). Play dodgeball with that all you like, but it's simply a fact.
That is completely different from national stereotypes (Americans loud, French rude, etc.). At any rate, survey after survey proves you wrong--it's the Americans who are viewed as the polite tourists and the Brits who are the bigmouths (and we see plenty of them here in Brussels--from the screaming nannies to the loud lads who wouldn't think of drinking or eating anywhere but the local Irish pubs--as bad as that ever-growing binge drinking segment of UK culture is at home, it's positively appalling elsewhere).

But hey BTilke, at least we queue up. We can't be all that bad.

Brit Kate x

Hi Kate, makes you wonder--which is worse, a bunch of line jumping non British Europeans or a bunch of drunk Brits waiting in line ;-)

I don't see anything wrong with saying Americans *on average* happen to be more polite about waiting in line than (non British) Europeans--especially because it happens to be true... after all, there are plenty of things one could reasonably argue that Europeans *in general* do better than Americans, why can't there be some things that Americans do better?

BTilke:

Of COURSE Americans do some things better, don't deny that. But we Brits INVENTED queuing, we do it for a hobby - in fact the Chief Exec of the Post Office recently went on record saying that the British would miss queuing at the Post Office if it suddenly got all efficient! (no comment!)

Of course we're a nation of beer-swilling oiks, but please don't tell me that Americans queue better than we do!!!

I am curious.What do Europeans do better than Americans?

I'm sure some of you remember the Who concert in Cincinatti many years ago in which a couple of people were pushed through glass doors. There were no assigned seats, all seating was &quot;festival style&quot;.

In Milan last year as my family waited on a line in the airport terminal people were jumping over the barricades to be next in line. It was scary. Surely some government organization, perhaps the fire marshalls, could control these situations in public buildings and the idea would start a trend. Festival style seating is not safe when boarding a plane.

==Mike

Tallulah, in my previous post, didn't I say &quot;non British&quot; Europeans? Put down that pint (unless you've already switched to Vodka and Red Bull) and re-read my message ;-)

In my experience, line jumping is pretty universally frowned on in the U.S. My husband inadvertently cut ahead in a line at an ice cream stand on Cape Cod, Massachusetts (there were several lines at the counter and it wasn't clear where the end was). Someone set him straight, and a voice in the crowd muttered, &quot;Must be from New York.&quot; Which we are, funnily enough.
However, a few weeks ago I was at the cab stand/taxi rank outside Grand Central Terminal in New York City. A man tried to cut into the line, and the uniformed guy running the stand admonished him to get to the end of the line, and then yelled down the line: &quot;I'm watching you!&quot; He ran a tight ship, no line jumpers allowed!
I had a funny experience in Israel a few years ago--I was the guilty one who pushed ahead in line to buy film at a church gift shop in Jerusalem (didn't want to lose my group) and I heard someone say, &quot;Pushy Christians!&quot;
Re comments re loud Americans, etc. If there are 100 Americans in the room, and 10 of them are loud, those are the ones you notice, ignoring the 90 quiet ones! And of course, someone who dresses differently or who has a different accent will always stand out.

If I ever win millions in the lottery, I vow here and now to bring groups of Europeans over by the hundreds, send them to a Vegas buffet full of New Yorkers, then broadcast tv specials called &quot;When Americans Attack.&quot;

atlcity: since you asked, after 5+ years of living in Europe there are a few things that I've come to believe Europeans *in general* do better than Americans. It does NOT mean I think Europeans are better people than Americans.
1. Mass transit (excluding the UK, sadly)
2. Balancing work and leisure
3. Buying quality rather than quantity
4. Cafes
5. Continuing the tradition of well-balanced nutritious meals savoured by the entire family.
6. Being able to find inexpensive little family-owned restaurants serving tasty healthy food in even the smallest town.

Leisa: I took your comments to be stereotyping of Americans. If that is not what you meant, my apologies. However, the point about globalization is not one of rudeness or bravado, it is just the way it is. I am not in any way saying that American culture is better, just that Europeans tend to eat much of it up. Some of this is no doubt marketing but the stuff that sticks obviously appeals. As for your comments about line cutting, I must agree with others that it is not cheeky behavior, but disrespectful and selfish. It also may be common around the world, but it was noticeably worse during our two weeks in Europe compared to the USA (and I travel around the USA quite a bit). However, it is just one thing. The great majority of people I ran into were very nice, polite and went out of their way to be helpful. It is an observation and I wanted to see if it was just me or if others noticed the same thing. It is not a condemnation of Europeans in total.

While waiting in a long long at a bus stop here in Vancouver, an old Chinese woman pushed in front of me. I told her in no uncertain terms that her behaviour was rude and that Canadians do not do that! As a multicultural city, we need to share the best of our cultures - not the worst!!

Hate to conform to stereotype, and I'd love to stay and watch this fascinating cultural assasination develop, but it's home time for me, so I'm off to my local to queue up at the bar for a good stiff G&amp;T. Have fun!

Thank you BTilke - I will let my colleagues know they are all misguided in their opinions.
silly billy, you have missed the point entirely. My original reply (waaaaay up the top there) to EWK was an ironic attempt to highlight how stereotypical it is of an American to even feel the need to post a comment about his experience of 'rampant' queque jumping in Europe.
IMO, EWK's post exposed more about Americans insular attitude than it did about rude european line cutters.

btilke:I agree on all of those points.

leisa, Irony doesn't translate well onto the screen. I've re-read your original post here a couple of times and I still don't see the nuance of irony.

Now, silly billy. Is that supposed to be ironic or just precious?

I recently returned from a week in Germany (Frankfurt and Neckar valley area) and was driven nearly mad by the line jumping! My worst experience was trying to get breakfast at McDonalds in the airport (only open take-away on a sunday morning). It was fairly busy, and I was cut in front of by at least 6 people, after every time I tried a new approach, standing closer, glaring, etc, but nothing worked.
The airport security line was nearly as bad, some americans waiting patienly behind us nearly missed their flight as a result!

Next trip I will try the thumb pointed to the back of the line as someone suggested!

I was browsing at a bookstore lately and in thumbing through a book called &quot;20 million frenchmen can't be wrong&quot; (or something to that effect). The book (somewhat scholarly in nature) suggested that line jumping was a product of the european understanding that not all people are equal, and therefore it is acceptable to cut infront of &quot;lesser&quot; people (naturally all americans would fall into this category). Any native europeans care to comment on this?