Language and pronunciation in Wales and Scotland
 

Does anyone have any ideas on links for learning to pronounce place names in Wales and Scotland? Would like not to look like the poster child for stupid American tourist when asking directions to Balquhidder or the Ffestiniog Railway. ;-)

Also, I would like to learn a few words in Welsh and, is it Gaelic? Things like: good day, please, thank you, etc. I see that Rosetta Stone has a Welsh program, but are there other alternatives?

Thank you!

Here's a spot to begin:

http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/welsh.php

click on the phrase to hear pronunciation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/livinginw...tes/howdoisay/
is a good place to start.

Also http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/foghlam/learngaelic/

I wouldn't worry too much about learning Welsh for a short visit. It depends very much on where you are going, both in Wales and in Scotland which language is mostly spoken.

And in Wales, the spelling on road signs may differ from North to South,to reflect local differences in pronunciation.

Welsh is NOT gaelic. Gaelic is spoken [a bit] in Scotland [mostly in the islands] and more so in Ireland.

welsh is in the same group of languages as Breton and cornish. My DS is at uni in Wales and he gets by very well without knowing any welsh; in fact the locals where he is in mid-Wales carry on bi-lingual conversations and frequently swap languages in mid-sentence.

Everyone, but everyone in both countries speaks english, and in wales they are used to us non welsh speakers mangling their place-names. in fact, many places have dual place names and you won't be expected to know the welsh one. in scotland, there are not any strange place names to get wrong, so far as I'm aware.

there really isn't anything to worry about.

"<i>in scotland, there are not any strange place names to get wrong, so far as I'm aware. </i>"

Well -- there are -- just like in England :) (Bicester, Worcester, Warwick, Greenwich, Fowey, and hundreds more. Heck - even the river Thames, which sounds different than the town of Thame - and they both sound different than the spelling :D )

In Scotland Culzean, Culross, Glamis, Islay etc etc etc are not pronounced <i>anything</i> like the spelling. But not to worry -- almost NO visitors will pronnounce them correctly.

The rules on languages:

- In parts of Wales (essentially the most remote and Welsh speaking bits of the Liverpool suburbs in the province's extreme North West), the locals - 100% fluent in English - occasionally affect offence if the English speak English. For visitors with a proper foreign accent, they drop this absurd pretence. In neither case do they expect anyone to come out with even a "Bore Da".

- The non-English language of most Scots not routinely speaking English is Lallans (the language of Burns), which has as little connection with any variety of Gaelic as English has with Italian. No-one expects any visitor to speak it

- a tiny number of people in the Highlands and Islands speak Scottish Gaelic. I've even once met a monoglot Gaelic speaker (true daughter of the Empire, when she realised I didn't understand her, she repeated the same thing, slower and louder). None of them expect anyone to speak Gaelic either.

-Unless you're a serious linguist, there are no brownie points from speaking a few phrases in any of these languages. If you want to chat in the pubs, learn their history (and the inane distortions their nationalist rabble-rousers churn out to get us to cut their taxes)

- There is no pronunciation error an American can make (except "Edinboro") in either province that every English visitor won't make as well. You WILL annoy people if you spell their towns wrong, though

Thank you for the links! I will start there.

annhig: Yes, I know that Welsh is not Gaelic, but I was wondering about the language(s) of Scotland. I just don't want to make really stupid mistakes.;-)

janisj: Yes, for example, Islay, which would be pronounced (with American English rules) "is-lay", but that is not right, correct?

flanner: Not a linguist, but a language person and I always like to learn a few courtesy phrases when I travel. Not expecting to be fluent, for sure! Thank you for the background info you provided, too.

Islay is pronounced more like ila (eye-lah, long I, short A)

Glaimis is Glaams

Culzean is sort of Cul-lane or even cool-ane

Culross = Kurrous is close enough :)

Don't try to learn Welsh or Scottish Gaelic. Even learning courtesy phrases is a waste. Scots speak a variety of English in daily life, not Gaelic (from Wikipedia, courtesy the most recently available UK census, "The 2001 UK Census showed that a total of 58,652 (<i>1.2% of the Scottish population aged over three years old</i>) in Scotland had some Gaelic ability at that time, with the Outer Hebrides being the main stronghold of the language."). In other words, as of ten years ago, 98.8% of the Scottish population spoke English and not Gaelic and the Gaelic trend was downward.

The Welsh have been under the thumb of Albion even longer than the Scots. You may be seen more as pretentious or a bit daft than courteous trying to speak in their near-dead languages.

Pronunciations of place names is a different issue and learning that can only help. After all, there are only so many uses of "w" and "dd" in English but Welsh is shot through with proliferations of those letters.

And the best way to translate spoken Scottish accents to English words may be to read some Scottish works that reflect the accent.

See http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1279/....htm#2H_4_0316

Or for a primer, see http://www.brookmyre.co.uk/extras/sh...-the-glossary/

Two notes for the previous post: (1) the italicization was supplied, not in original; (2) Brookmyre's definition of "old firm" won't tell you anything -- the term refers to the two Glasgow football (soccer) teams, Celtic and Rangers, that dominate Scottish football, hate each other, and have their roots in the same Catholic/Protestant divide that has affected British history since Henry VIII.

Big Russ:

"You may be seen more as pretentious or a bit daft than courteous trying to speak in their near-dead languages."

You think even for saying "Good morning" to a shopkeeper? Or "thank you" to a B&B host? I find that surprising because everywhere I have ever been, folks seem pleased when a visitor tried to learn a tiny morsel of culture/history/language about their land. I will heed your advice, but welcome other voices...

Again, thanks for the input and the links.

janisj: I have read and enjoyed your advice on this board for a long while. Thank you.

OP - learning a few phrases for countries like France, Italy etc is great, but it is absolutely not necessary in Scotland or Wales. None of my Scottish friends converse in any form of Gaelic when they go home - they just thicken their accents and speak faster! The fact that you were well-mannered enough to consider this tells me there is pretty much no chance of you coming across as an ignorant or thoughtless tourist.

Speaking Welsh is not essential in South Wales.

In North and parts of mid and West Wales, many places use Welsh as their first language although English is spoken too.

If you have a few greetings to use, it would be acceptable in many places. Only from the point of view that you made the effort.
Why not?

Here in Cardiff, Welsh is once again becoming increasingly important, the Welsh Assy Government have invested heavily in Welsh language schools and over the next generation Welsh language will emerge very strongly.

Have a look at these sites too, they may help.

http://www.heart-of-wales.co.uk/welsh.htm

http://gwybodiadur.tripod.com/phrases.htm

pob lwc


Muck

Speaking Gaelic in Scotland may just get you blank-eyed stares considering that about 1% of the population speaks it and most of them live on the islands. Sounds like Scottish Gaelic isn't quite intrinsic to the culture. If you learn about the importance of the Highlander regiments in British military history, the Battle of Culloden and what it meant in Scottish history, the Treaty of Union, why James I of England is James VI of Scotland, Mary Queen of Scots' place in Scottish history, Burns' Night, the Scottish Enlightenment and its contributions, why Listerine is so named, etc., that's something else but speaking Scottish Gaelic when the Scots don't . . . why?

As for the Welsh, English is the official language of Wales and you have slightly better than a 1/5 chance of finding someone who speaks Welsh (about 21.7% of Welsh citizens speak the language, about 57% of those consider themselves fluent according to the Welsh Language Board itself). The language persists because of the Welsh Language Act that gives it equal footing with English in the public sector, but considering everyone speaks English and the real language of commerce and everyday life is English, speaking Welsh is like going to Western Canada and speaking French.

I am currently trying to learn a little Scots Gaelic and, after studying French, German, Spanish and Russian, I am finding Gaelic, by far, the most difficult, even in trying to learn a few phrases. You will probably be put to the test just coping with the local accents/dialect. If you can manage to corrrectly pronounce the places you'll be visiting both (i.e. janisj's examples), you'll be doing far more than most tourists. Scotland and Wales are really not like other European countries in appreciating language attempts.

If you really want to learn something in the Gaelic language <I> slàinte </I> ... A toast, Cheers! Good health! is your best bet.

Muck: Planning on Northern Wales, so I would suppose working on "Cymru am byth" would be popular? Thank you, diolch for the links.

Will go now and practice.

oops--that should have been >>Glamis is Glahms<<

But I guess glaams <i>could</i> be pronounced sort of glahms . . . :) Just so long as you don't say glaams as in glamor

If you tell us where you're going, we can point out some of the place name pitfalls (other than Islay which we've sort of covered)

Like Edinburgh for instance :D

janisj: We are going in and out of London next May for three weeks. Four nights in London. Then driving. The itinerary is still in flux, but I want to see parts of northern Wales, Scotland over the next two plus weeks. I realize it will be only an overview. I am interested in history.

I listen to the Edinburgh Man podcast and am working on his pronunciation...ed-in-b'rah ???

"<i>We are going in and out of London next May for three weeks. Four nights in London. Then driving.</i>"

Ah -- then we first have to work on places names in London :))

If you come to Aberdeen and you greet a shopkeeper, it's traditional to say "Aye, aye, fit like 'i' day". The response could well be "Tchavvin'"

Does that help?


(Warning-Do not try this at home)

Yes of course, Cymru am byth is always welcome anywhere in Wales. :-)

Also, maybe you should get yourselves a Welsh Rugby shirt, you will become instantly Welsh. (Set fire to an English Rugby shirt and you will get adopted) :-)


Muck

Don't listen to BigRuss. While it's probably true that Scottish Gaelic is dying, Welsh is not. Welsh is very much alive and well.

In all parts of Wales, there are Welsh speakers, and in the North, there are many communities where you can go days without hearing any English. It's true that everyone in Wales also knows English, but not everyone (especially in the North) is as comfortable in it as in Welsh, and many people don't like speaking it.

It's also true that almost everyone in Germany speaks English, too, but that doesn't mean that learning some German before you go would be a bad idea. Politeness is never out of place.

You wouldn't be seen as pretentious if you learned a little Welsh.

Pawb lwc i ti! Dw i'n gobeithio bydd dy daith di'n diddorol iawn. Diolch am dy eisiau dysgu tipyn bach o'r Gymraeg.

Best of luck to you! I hope that your trip will be very interesting. Thanks for your interesting in learning a little Welsh.

sheila: I will pass until I study some more. ;-)

It is interesting that there are many more websites, apps, etc. dedicated to Welsh than to Scots Gaelic.

Diolch y'all!!

<b>ThePilgrim</b>: Your cat's been walking over your keyboard again!

:)

Dr D.

Kirkcudbright gets me every time.

www.pronouncenames.com/pronounce/kirkcudbright

"<i>Kirkcudbright gets me every time.</i>"

as might Milngavie :) http://www.pronouncenames.com/search?name=Milngavie

But first we have to get the OP through London and places like Leicester Sq, Grosvenor Sq, the Thames, The Mall, Holborn, Southwark . . . .

"It's also true that almost everyone in Germany speaks English, too,"

No it isn't.

janisj: I will be easy in London. I have three places I want to see: Westminster Abbey, the British Museum and the Tower of London. I will not need to pronounce "lay-chester" and "gross-ven-or"...;-)

"<i>I will be easy in London. I have three places I want to see: Westminster Abbey, the British Museum and the Tower of London.</i>"

Ah -- but the Tower <i>is</i> dangerously near Southwark and Holborn is useful for the Museum :)

Back to my research then...;-)

Almost the only Gaelic word that most Scots use regularly is "Slainte", literally "health", when raising a glass. Pronunciation is something like slanzhe with the "zh" coming out as a softer version of "sh" so the end of the word is similar to "lozenge".
In the Western Isles and a few of the inner isles shopkeepers etc will appreciate it if you try a few basic phrases such as "tapadh leibh" (TApa leiv", the "ei" sounding almost like it does in German) for "thank you", and "madainn mhath" (MAtain vaa) for Good Morning.

The only way to get the correct pronunciation of Scottish place names is to ask locally. This is because they could be derived from Gaelic, Norse, lowland Scots, English, occasionally French or Saxon, but most often no-one really knows.

The most important rule of Scots Gaelic pronunciation is that nearly everywhere that people still use it in everyday life they pronounce the word itself as Gah-lig rather than Gay-lic.

In Gaelic speaking areas people will appreciate any interest you show in the language and its culture.

Tapadh leibh. It is interesting that it is much easier to find information on Welsh than Scots Gaelic on the 'net. I will look for something that will help with the sound of Scots Gaelic.

Last night, BBC TV was showing an episode of Paul Murton's "Grand Tours of Scotland", following a 19th century guidebook, and it showed him practising Gaelic in Skye. Or rather, looking for someone who would understand if he asked for directions to the Post Office, and he only found two: one was an incomer shopkeeper who was in her first year at the Gaelic College, the other a local man who said he didn't really speak Gaelic "But better than you!"

I will not need to pronounce "lay-chester" and "gross-ven-or"...>>

it's probably me being thick, but "lay-chester?"

"Grosvenor" is "Gro'v'ner" BTW.

>>it's probably me being thick, but "lay-chester?" <<

What Americans are said to pronounce Ly-sester. Not Katie Price.

oh, Leicester! as in "Lester" Square.

is the Jordan reference aimed at me, perchance? are we talking brains or her other attributes?

[oh, i AM slow - just got it!]

annhig: As I started this whole thing... I was teasing about the pronunciations of those words... I promise not to actually say anything out loud I do not know how to pronounce. ;-)

I have found some iPhone apps with Welsh lessons, but nothing in Scots Gaelic. I am working on that /u/ in "look" and "book" though.

east - your tongue was clearly too far inside your cheek - which will make pronunciation even more difficult.

your trip will be interesting if you are going to avoid saying ANY place names.

Eastenderusvi -- I was in your shoes about two years ago, preparing for a trip to Wales and wanting at least enough Welsh to pronounce place names correctly. I've since fallen in love with the language and have been back twice more so I could spend time exclusively speaking Welsh. Now I speak, I read, I write, I Skype...and all because I wanted to know how to say place names. So beware -- you never know where a casual interest may take you!

The resource I suggest is a free downloadable audio course (available in southern and northern flavors):
www.saysomethinginwelsh.com
The guys who created it won an award for it a couple of months ago from the Western Mail (daily newspaper in Wales). It won't teach you specifically how to pronounce placenames (though you'll get comfortable with the sound of 'll', which in truth is not that hard). But it will give you a sense for the sound of the language, and the ability quite quickly to assemble some useful non-tourist sentences of your own, should you want to give it a try. The free intro course is quite long (35 half-hour lessons). There's a web forum as well, plus an intermediate-level course (not free).

You may also enjoy listening to Radio Cymru online:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radiocymru/
Hit the little green speaker to hear a live stream.

I agree with ThePilgrim that Welsh speakers generally react very positively when a visitor is interested in Welsh, and making some effort in it, even just to say thank you (= diolch).

Pilgrim -- Cymry Cymraeg wyt ti?