Just Returned. Some Advice
 

My wife and I have just returned from 16 days in Italy. Landed in Naples and immediately took the bus ( easy to do) to Sorrento. Sorrento a very nice walkable town, not too large, good dinners and Gelato. <BR>Train to Rome - Saw all the usual tourist sights, awesome!! Train to Florence, again a nice town, larger than Sorrento, Good wine and food - leather is the good buy here along with wine. Bus to Sienna, large town not very quaint and definitely not my idea of a Tuscany Hill Village. Rick Steve's makes a big point of saying if you can only visit one hill town make it Sienna, We disagree and everyone we talked to feels the same. San Gimignano is a much better representation of what you expect a hill town to be, small walled village easy to walk, very clean good photo opportunities everywhere. <BR>We were going to the Cinque-Terre but due to the rains changed our plans and headed for Venice. In our opinion, Venice is a city which can be easly seen and enjoyed in a full day and evening. The only Sight is the city itself, canals are great, easy to walk everywhere. Don't be mislead by Steve's book, there is very little of Venice that is off the beaten path, tourists are everywhere. Everybody in Venice is out to take your money (This is understandable since tourism is The big industry - Think of New York at its worst) <BR>We had a great time in Italy and thoroughly enjoyed the museums, paintings, frescoes, churches, statues (Birnini is great) etc, etc. But have no desire to return to Italy. Without exception we found anybody involved with the tourist industry, to be rude, curt, non smiling, and very unhelpful ( Not just to us but to Italians as well) They seem to hold tourists in distain and do not go out of their way to help you. I guess we expected the Italians to be a very happy lot - we found this is not the case. To be fair, we did not really get out of the tourist areas, ie: Sorrento, Rome, Florence and Venice, maybe it is different if you get out to the countryside - However, remember that the Sights one wants to see are in the cities. The following are some observations: <BR> <BR>1. Buy guidebooks to any sight you want to see. Very few signs are in English (Even though most foreign visitors speak some English) Once you pay for your ticket you are on your own, no directions telling you which way to go (Do we go left or right here) <BR>2. Do take some toilet tissue with you. 50% do not have it. None have hand towels, they rely on heat dryers which do dry if you have the time to hold your hands under them for quite some time. Most toilets do not have seats, plan accordingly. (None of this applys if you stay in the Hilton, eat at only the best restaurants, etc. <BR>3. Don't attempt to learn any Italian, we found it doesn't help much, either they do not understand or act like they don't) Yes the Italians do speak some English but only key pharases, Ie: Where are you from. Ask a question or god forbid question a bill and all of a sudden they don't understand. <BR>4. We had no problem with pickpockets, had heard a lot about this so were prepared but in all our late nite walks, etc never came close to having a problem. <BR>5. Do not expect a lot of help with directions, again English is limited (The fact that people in the tourism industry are unable to speak English is surprising given that it is spoken, at least to some extent by most travelers) <BR>6. You will see 3 or 4 officials in uniform standing around talking to each other. Don't ask them questions, they know nothing and don't appreciate being interrupted from talking with their friends. <BR>7. Rick Steve's Italy 2000 was OK but not that accurate or helpful. He says just walk here but fails to tell you how to get there etc I understand that a guidebook can't give complete info but I did expect more from his. <BR> <BR>If you would like answers to specific questions please email us.

I have to disagree with the comment that 'very little of Venice is off the beaten path.' When in Venice last September, I found it very easy to get away from the crowds of tourists; even just a few steps away from San Marco, if one went in the right direction, things became much quieter. Huge chunks of sestieres Dorsoduro, Cannaregio (away from the Lista di Spagna and the train station), Castello and Santa Croce are rarely explored by tourists. <BR> <BR>Venice, in my opinion, can't be done justice in one day and one night. Being there for that short a period of time probably means that the traveler will indeed spend all their time in areas that are crowded with other tourists, because they're trying to see "the sights" (which, BTW, cannot possibly be seen in a day, even just the major ones like the Basilica San Marco, Doge's Palace, Accademia, Guggenheim Museum, and key churches like the Santa Maria Della Salute--unless you're running like a fiend), and will have no opportunity to get into the off-the-track quieter areas. <BR> <BR>I spent three full days in Venice last fall; not nearly enough, and I can't wait to return.

Oops--so interested in the Venice aspect that I missed some other things I wanted to comment on. <BR> <BR>As I've found pretty much everywhere I've traveled, the Italians were very warm and friendly; I'm quite surprised to hear them characterized as rude, curt, etc. From shopkeepers to waitstaff in restaurants to hotel proprietors, all it took was a friendly "buon giorno" or "buona sera" and a question about them, their city or their establishment to make a new friend. I can't disagree strongly enough with the suggestion not to bother learning Italian. It's not vital to survival, sure; but it certainly is helpful to having a more pleasant time. Even the crabby-looking old woman behind a postcard shop counter near the Ca'Rezzonico flashed a smile when I asked for "Due francobolli, per favore." (Two stamps, please.) <BR> <BR>And it's inaccurate to say that Italians don't speak English. Virtually every Italian I met, particularly those in the cities, spoke quite passable English--certainly far better than I speak Italian. <BR> <BR>Oh--and I've not traveled widely throughout the country, but in my experiences in northern Italy, most toilets (at least in restaurants, hotels, and public venues) do in fact have seats. <BR> <BR>Sorry to hear that Terry had such an unpleasant experience with the people of Italy, but I'm delighted to report that mine couldn't have been more different. I can't wait to return to Italy, not just to see "the sights," but to enjoy its lovely culture and the company of its citizens.

I thoroughly agree with Gina. Having returned from Italy in July, my experiences are still fresh in my mind, and they are not at all clase to Terry's observations about Venice were, in my opinion, quite off the mark, and very typical of an American who wants sights to be handed to him. Venice was/is a beautiful, complex city which can in no way be experienced in a day and night. My four day stay there hardly gave my mother and I time to enjoy all of the beautiful secrets the city holds. The Italians, with the exception of a select few, were very friendly, open, and helpful. Also, almost all of the natives that we encountered spoke at least passable English, which is much more than American tourists can say. <BR>I absolutely recccomend going to Italy. However, should you go, be sure to bring one of the most mportant things that many tourists forget:an open mind.

Wow <BR>Terry you sound like a fun person to go on holiday with!

Italy, we loved it. When lost and with broken Italian (that is, only a few words of Italian) people helped us. <BR>One shop keeper, who was leaving for lunch, escorted us to a restaurant we could not locate on our own. One lady taught us to say (I've forgotten it, sorry) "we want it hot and we want it to go." We had a lot of laughs with her trying to say it correctly and undertandably. <BR>We found that by using some Italian greetings as mentioned above by Gina, we had good responses.

Terry, You reap what you sow. Next year <BR>try Disneyland--they have great signage

Terry are you sure you went to Italy? After visiting Italy twice, I really have little desire to go elsewhere! We ran into helpful people everywhere. It's really amazing how much a smile and actually trying to speak their language goes. We found Italy to be one of the warmest places we've ever visited and someday I too hope to write about my own Bella Tuscany or Umbria! I have witnessed travellers getting angry when salespeople or waiters can't understand them,it's amazing how arrogant some of us are! Perhaps a cruise is a way to go for those type of people, although I'm sure they would find something to complain about there too!

Could there possibly be two Italys? The one that Terry visited and the one that the rest of us went to? <BR>I'm dumbfounded! Further comment would be superfluous!

I share everyone else's amazement. I'm so in love with Italy (and the Italians) that I am taking almost all my savings to buy a house there. There is nothing I don't like - oh, well, maybe the parking is sometime a problem! I love it.

you must have visited Italy's other Venice because the one I visited was completely different! 3 days there was not really enough.....I could just walk around forever. Got lost a few times, quite scary in fact.....there were no people and NO TOURISTS to be seen and I actually felt panicky on my own and directionless. I got tired, I got wet, I got hungry.....but The Serene One is a city unlike any other. I cannot begin to describe it to friends who ask what its like! <BR> <BR>Venice is more than its famous square so if that is where you hung out you've missed some great sights and experiences.

I can't help but wonder why a person who has had disappointing experiences would make pronouncements about entire populations, like <BR>"everybody in Venice is out to take your money". Did you meet "everybody"? <BR>And "the Italians do speak some English." <BR>Which Italians are "the Italians"? <BR>And who are the "they" in "they don't understand?" Believe it or not, people in other countries don't have an obligation to speak any English at all, tourism or no tourism. <BR>I will weigh in with the majority here, and add: <BR>I did not go to Siena expecting it to be a "hill town" which it is not. It is a small city. I loved it anyway, but that's neither here nor there. <BR>Venice can indeed can be seen and enjoyed in one day, and can be seen and enjoyed for 30 days as well. However, in one day there wouldn't be time to see or enjoy very much. To say that the "only sight" is the city itself is not complete in my opinion. There are buildings and churches and mosaics and paintings and lagoon islands that I still have imprinted on my brain. <BR>I don't know how after a one-day or even week-long visit one arrives at the blanket statement "there is very little of Venice that is off the beaten path". It is certainly not true. <BR>I found no hoardes of rude people in Italy, only the occasional rude individual, which is a better average than I find at home in the US. I found friendly help whenever I needed it, and sometimes it was offered before I'd even asked.And I too found that most toilets do have seats,and I did not stay in luxury hotels nor eat only in fine restaurants. <BR>I too can't wait to go back. I wouldn't expect everyone to feel the same way, but I also wouldn't make such blanket <BR>criticisms of entire cities and countries. If the object was to get people fired up, you've succeeded.

Well, Terry, you have proved that there are people who can find fault wherever they go. It is a shame that you did not come away with any positive vacation memories. <BR> <BR>I think there are many people who are perhaps caught up in the whole Tuscany thing and go to Italy for the wrong reasons. Perhaps, Terry is one of them. <BR> <BR>Some people just don't get IT! <BR> <BR>

Actually, he did say they had a great time in Italy, and throroughly enjoyed aspects of it, and have no desire to return. <BR>I think those darned Italians ruined it <BR>for the future.

Damned parallel universe - Terry went to the WRONG Italy.

I'm not surprised at Terry's sentiments. I found that people involved with the tourist industry were not particularly pleasant -- if you skim the surface and stay mainly in tourist areas that's what you get. I wish people would stop telling others to go to Disneyland if they express some dissatisfaction with their experience. I've been to Italy and Spain, and I've found that Spain is less touristy, the people helpful with directions, polite, and more respectful toward women than in Italy. In Italy tourism is much greater, and a lot of people do try to take advantage of tourists. I was left with the same impression: the sights are great, but the people I prefer elsewhere such as Spain or England. Another complaint about Italy is that so many of major museums (e.g.Uffizzi) was closed; when I was there rooms with Da Vinci, Caravaggio, and Rubens were closed for lack of staff or something. I think it would be something to be upset about. <BR>I disagree about Venice, it's very easy to get off the beaten path and wonder the narrow streets. But I wouldn't spend too much time there because it's not a real living city. People who still live there are subsidized by the government, there are not a lot of opportunities for young people besides tourism industry. BTW, I live in US now, but I was born in Europe.

I think Terry is a troll of one sort or another.

We have reservations completed for our fourth trip to Italy in 5 years! I can tell you that it is not the Italy described by "Terry". <BR> <BR> Yes, there are many "ugly Americans" who travel abroad!!!!!!! <BR> <BR> I hope "Terry" goes to that third world country Palm Beach for his next trip.

I must have gone to a different Italy...As with everywhere, there are some rude people, but for the most part they tried to communicate with me and my broken Italian. As far as directions go, why would expect them to have signs in English? You're in Italy ya' know? Do they have signs in Italian in New York? Anyway, last year, I had trouble finding 2 hotels and both times that I stopped and asked for directions the people actually got into their cars and escorted me to the hotel...now that's hospitality! Would you do that?

Terry, thanks for the posting, but I too must strongly disagree about not bothering to learn any Italian. My husband and I made a point to know at least polite phrases, and we were treated with a great deal of warmth and politeness wherever we went. I was terribly proud of myself when I got a chance to ask for me key in Italian and it never failed to bring a smile of appreciation from the person on the recieving end. If you don't "bother" to try and learn another person's language, you really miss out.

Thyra, I too always try to learn a few phrases, but I always suspect that smile I get is to cover up their thought, "oh, my God, I've never heard anyone butcher our language so badly before." In any case, I still get a smile and a friendly reaction like, "oh, well, at least you tried."

I knew my message would draw a few comments and am pleased that so many of you have had nothing but great, fantastic experiences in Italy. <BR> <BR>Thanks Elaine for noticing that I did say we had a good time. my intent in posting this was to provide some realism to all the posts I see about how great the Italian people are. Yes we too had some help along the way but not from anybody involved in the tourist industy. Thanks Cheri for observing that I was talking about people in the tourism industry. Gee Joe, so much hostility!! No, I think we all go to the same Italy. <BR> <BR>I don't mean to provoke additional excited comments from those of you who love Italy and go back every year. We have lived in the Orient 5 years, Europe 3 years and visited most European and Asian countries, some we would and have gone back to, others we would not, all have been enjoyable experiences. I guess what I am saying is that with so many great places to visit why would one want to return year after year to the same place? We enjoyed Italy but would not return. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Although I *definitely* don't agree with Terry's take on Italy, I'm glad he offered his opinion *with* his name & e-mail address rather than an anonymous posting. I believe (sorry Terry the memory's fading:) I've either responded to his posts and/or possibly e-mailed him info before he left so his name/e-mail is a valid one. And I appreciate his honesty here, even if he did go to the wrong Italy:))). Regards, Walter <BR>

Patrick, Oh I am sure they are giggling at my weird murder of their native language, but I laughing myself, so at least, right off the bat, we have something in common.

Hey Terry, <BR>I'm thinkin a goin a New Yawk. I won't use Steve's guide since you say it don't tell all. Is New Yawk like Florence - a nice town, larger than Sorrento good wine and food -what's a good buy? Whoodja talk to about Sienna since nobody speaks English in Italy? <BR>Were you walkin on the canals in Venice? Are they that cruddy? Where do you live, I wanna go there. Everywhere I been someone's after my money. If their not where you are that's where I wanna be. Do I gotta buy guidebooks for New Yawk's museums? Arn't the signs in Italian? Why not? I thought New Yawk was a tourist city since everybody there's out to get your money. Where ya gonna go next? How much toilet tissue do you think you'll need?

Message: Elaine - am sure glad we went to your Italy and not Terry's. We encountered one pushy Italian waiter in 18 days and the rest of "the Italians" were delightful. Maybe because we tried to use "their" language, albeit in a very limited manner. Ours was a 9.5 trip on a 10 scale - sorry, Terry

This post addresses a problem that I've noticed many times, and may of us are guilty of it. We visit a city (or even country) once for a day and become "experts," giving sweeping generalizations sometimes way off the mark, based on personal interests, biases, experiences that may be of little help to the rest of us. A good guidebook or two, with fact-checkers and professional writers is still an important base. Many of us put down the guidebooks, but we do, obviously have to watch taking advice solely from well-meaning fellow travelers who may be way, way off. And all of us should evaluate our impressions carefully before giving blanket putdowns. The forum is great, I love it, but be discerning in giving and getting.

I think the same should apply to people who are overly enthusiastic about a place. I love Italy, but on this board it's almost sacred. Everyone gushes about Italy so much that it's no wonder some people are let down. Some people are so excited about just taking a trip that anything would seem great to them. Not knocking that, but some realism is also helpful.

I've noticed on this forum that when someone loves a destination everyone is buddy-buddy.When someone doesn't have a perfect "Fodorite" type holiday and dares to tell that person is torn to shreds on this forum.

IMO the last two posters miss the point of the criticisms of the original poster. The point is not that Terry didn't like Italy as much as we do/did. It's the way he presented his comments that caused the strong responses.

I don't think Terry is being ripped to shreds for his comments on *specific* experiences - his comments on Siena, or that Venice can be done in a day are not in contention (they are his opinions based on his experience). Others have offered their opinions in contrast. What becomes a problem is the blanket statements like "there is very little in Venice off the beaten path"...if Terry feels that Venice can be done in one day, then there's no way he had the chance to explore the city well enough to make that statement. When he starts to give advice based on extrapolating from minimum experience, I have a problem. Cautionary notes such as "in our experience, we found English not widely spoken" is a lot different than "Do not expect a lot of help with directions, again English is limited". Rebuttal from travelers with many trips to Italy is to be expected. If someone went to the Louvre and said "I'm not an art fan, so I really didn't find it worth my while" is one thing; I'd have to respond if someone posted "I didn't find any paintings in the Louvre, so don't bother to go".

Gee, Terry. I'll bet your other big mistake was voting for GORE!

Gosh, Lara, I shudder to think what your big mistakes were/are! One of them certainly is posting that inane comment!

Terry, I understand that you were talking about people in the tourism industry...and I still have to disagree with your comments about everyone "without exception" being "rude, curt, non smiling, and very unhelpful." (Boy, talk about a blanket generalization!) One can find rude people everywhere, but even in Venice, where I would *expect* everyone to be sick to death of tourists since they live in a fishbowl 24-7, I found waiters, shop staff, staff at the various attractions, etc., quite pleasant. I can only think of one unpleasant restaurant experience, and even there the waiters were quite nice...as they ripped us off. But that was our own fault--we were in a rush to catch our train, and ducked into a place on the Lista di Spagna that had a "tourist menu" advertised outside. We knew better! <BR> <BR>But many of my fond memories of Italy will be of the people I met, *including* and especially people whose primary business was working with travelers in some way or another. I had a great fit of the giggles with the aforementioned young woman in the glass shop when I asked her about how frustrating it must be to live in the Italian equivalent of Disney World, and we compared morning commutes--Washington highways vs. the jam-packed vaporetto. <BR> <BR>I think Elvira put it best. No one's questioning Terry's, or anyone else's, right to have their own opinion of a place, even if it seems out of kilter with what many others have experienced; but when someone makes a blanket, "without exception" declaration that people are rude, that there is no "off the beaten path" in Venice (after having been there for one day and night), and that one should not attempt to learn any Italian, then those declarations are going to be challenged because, well, they're pretty off base.

Though this thread was created some time ago, I felt compelled to reply.

I just returned from a month long trip through Italy and I felt much the way Terry did during my trip.

I tried to speak Italian-carrying a phrase book with me everywhere-but received impatience and annoyance when my pronunciation was not perfect.

I felt like people in tourism or otherwise did not wish to be helpful and actually revelled in tourists' misfortune at times. We were crossing a busy street in Rome with our bags and dropped a folder of papers-our itineraries and such-and people actually stepped on them and laughed! A woman on the plane back to the states told me that Italians had got in front of their kayak in Amalfi and blocked their way after noticing that they were having trouble navigating.

People gave us clearly wrong directions-pointing the opposite direction we were supposed to go-ignored us when we tried to ask questions-and seemed generally annoyed that we didn't know how to do everything-like use the payphone-immediately.

My biggest frustration is that when I tell people about my trip, their response is that there is something wrong with me. I couldn't have not liked Italy.

There were certainly parts I enjoyed very much-the scavi tour, uffizi gallery, and much of venice. And it enrages me that the assumption is that I'm an ignorant, demanding, fussy tourist who must have agitated the people there. I have traveled a lot before and know how to be polite and make friends.

Luckily, I did make a few. Most of the time, people were not outwardly mean, and I did meet some very nice people. But I broke down and wept when the plane left the ground in Rome headed to Frankfurt. I was so glad to be leaving a place where I felt so uncomfortable.

My trip to Italy was my least favorite and I will not return. I hope others have a better experience there than I did.

Jennhawk, I'm sorry you didn't have a good time. To put your comments in perspective, I'm interested in knowing where you have gone on vacation that you really LOVED???

All those italians hated you, the moment they saw you in the street, everybody was thinking: &quot;Oh my god it's jennhawk, how i hate this person&quot;. Can't help you with this one, hope you feel better next time away from home...

Some people just have no clue how to travel and enjoy the places they visit. I think Terry has tunnel vision (no offense) and didn't take the time to savor.

jennhawk, that is deeply discouraging. i’ve always wanted to go to Italy, Venice to be exact and do the tourist bit there in ’07. i guess, i’ll have to read up more, do more research, etc. there's obviously two sides here. thanks for the input.

Don't you always encounter surly people and nice, helpful people even in your hometown? Don't you just ignore them? The point I think your missing is that these types of people exist everywhere and the key is to not expect any differnet and to not let it ruin your trip OR to associate that type of behaviour with Italy alone (or where ever you happen to be).