I recommend reading "The Wages of Guilt," by Ian Buruma, in which he discusses the ways that Germany and Japan have dealt with their roles and actions in WWII during the decades following the war. He shows how painfully aware Germans became of the ramifications of Naziism and how they have struggled to keep that awareness front and center so as to prevent any possibility of its reoccurance. Perhaps reading this will give you a different perspective on contemporary Germany and its people and how they regard their own history.

An interesting discussion. Sally, I had the fortune to take a class with Christopher Browning once when he was guest lecturing at his alma mater in Madison. I think it helps to realize that the present government is far removed from the government of the Nazi period. I would advise going with an open mind and learn from the experience. Obviously there are groups in Germany that still cling to the old hate-filled Nazi-era principles, but that is far from uncommon. There are groups here in the U.S. that would probably do just as Hitler if given the chance. I think you should take the German government's reactions to these events (although not always beyond reproach) as evidence that things are vastly different. I believe if you go to Germany with as open a mind as possible, you will find it a mostly pleasant place and the experience rewarding. All this said, given the absolute scale of the Holocaust, it is hard to argue with those who do have such feelings, especially if they or loved ones went through it. Perhaps the greatest debate among historians of the period is whether the Nazis happened because of circumstance or were an extension of German culture and politics. Regardless, the cultural and political experiences of present generations of Germans are vastly different than those of their grandparents.

I am an American living in Germany. I must say that Germany is a beautiful place, but they have, in my opinion, not changed their ideals and ways of thinking enough to satisfy me or a lot of people. Sometimes it scares me to see some of the German 'right extremists' (Nazis). I think that the scariest part is that, in my opinion, the rest of the world does not hear about it. <BR>I know that most Germans are fine people, and don't feel that way anymore, but all in all, I don't feel that the German mindset has been completely changed.

Let's consider the facts here (especially in light of this previous posting here)....("satisfy me..."?? come on, who are you, God???)<BR><BR>* Most Germans nowadays have been born AFTER the war<BR>* Today there is no more, but also no less, anti-semitism or racial intolerance in Germany than ANYWHERE else in the western world (including the US)<BR>* There is a growing Jewish community there numbering 100,000+<BR>* Anything Nazi is TOTALLY forbidden in the democratic post-war republic, but not so in the US<BR>* Humans rights? You forget that the US president (and many many oh-so-righteous Americans) are in favour of the death penalty, and NO western European country allows it anymore<BR><BR>So, yes, there are skinheads and white extremists in Germany, but they are a small small minority, just like in the US. And those acts against the Turkish community are isolated incidents, much like when white rednecks drag an african-american person to death behind their pick up.

To this day I can't visit Italy because of what the Roman Empire did to the Germanic people. Infanticide, enslavement, theft and the enforcement of pagan religions.

Hey, the damn Japs still don't even admit they did anything wrong. They say we were the "bad guys" dropping atom bombs on them for no reason. Meanwhile they killed millions of Chinese. How many even really the atrocities the Nips administered to American Prisoners of War? Dr. Mengele pales in comparison to the stuff Japanese "doctors" did to Chinese and even Japanese women.

I had similar feelings for a long time. I lost about 40 relatives in Auschwitz. Then I met my husband whose father was from Germany. His grandfather was held in a labor camp for refusing to serve in the German army. His uncle was taken away, never to be seen again for refusing to fight. The entire family spent most of the war trying to flee Hitler. My father in law taught me that Germans can be warm and inviting, and that I cannot hold an entire nation accountable for what happened to my people. I hope, Charles, that you post your experience and impressions of Germany when you return.

It may help if you consider what "Germany" means - there was no such place until recently, it was just a collection of states - America is much older than Germany.<BR>Also Hitler was Austrian, also the "poor Poles" themselves launched a vicious pogrom against the Jews after the war was finished.<BR>As did others.<BR>So blame doesn't just rest with "Germany".<BR>They had many enthusiastic helpers all over the world, and many enemies at home.<BR>Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...

My nationality is 100% german (at least so far as you can be 100% anything), and I have felt much the same as the original poster... I have not been to Germany (at least so far) and have struggled with the same thoughts and concerns - more so as I've travelled overseas, and tried to picture, for instance, living in England, during the Blitz . The responses here have been thought-provoking and enlighting (and, until I got to the Douglas Mac post above, I was thinking - wow, you really can have an intelligent conversation on Fodors without the brainless bigmouths showing up...)As it happens, I sat down here with an open book in my hands - one about Anne Frank that I'd picked up when we visited that house in Amsterdam just last month, and had just finished reading details of the actual capture in the annex. We can't change history, but (if we don't ignore it) we can learn from it...and change ourselves.

What about our little genocide of the Native Americans ? We've got alot of skeletons in our closet too. Forgive but don't forget.

Sorry guys but i think you are so busy thinking about images (mostly projected by movies which have as much truth aboiut them as buying property on the mars) of others that you might forget your own.<BR><BR>Just a glimpse at your own history,<BR>McCarthy who would have liked to burn all Kommunists, Racisms against not only blacks but also most other majorities (eventhough the blacks belonged to the ones most prominently pictured in history ...I wont go back to the indians), but not only in your country has manking lived up to its reputation as beeing earths most cruel animal, you also managed to spread the US good vibes to Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Korea, Panama City Libya ...I better stop ! So when you start focusing on these images you have of germany I would come to advise you to visit the country and find out that Germany and its people are as dumb or as intelligent, as friendly or as unhospitable as rude or as friendly as any other nation. <BR><BR>I guess it has a reason why a guy like Georgi boy is your president after all ... he knows about as much about germany as you do....from the movies

Not to excuse anyone's inhumanity, but if you more than a shallow knowledge of history, you will be aware that there is probably not one group of people, anywhere on earth, at any time on earth, that has not, at one point or another, behaved in an utterly inhumane manner or been treated in an inhumane manner. We aren't born good - we're born feral with an overriding need to survive. Hitler was able to rise to power because so many Germans were - literally - dying of starvation. He identified what he thought was the reason for that and proposed a solution. Desperate, ignorant people responded. That doesn't excuse what was done to the Jews, who weren't responsible, except in Hitler's mind. But if you believe any of us would behave differently, then you've never been afraid for your life or watched your children go without food. Imagine yourself isolated from any source of information under those circumstances and see what you do. Most people would say, "No, I would never behave like that!" Then go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans and watch people push each other under vehicles just to capture some beads. If you believe Germans - or any group - is evil compared to yourself, stay away from them. I'm reluctant to spend my travel dollars in the Middle East, where women are treated like dirt, but I don't believe the citizenry of those countries to be particularly worse than citizens of any other place.

....just as there are many from the Middle East who hate America for it's support of the Palestinian genocide and the death camps there.

HEY SHANNA,<BR><BR>I share naturally most of your oppinions except for the last. Have you been to the middle east ? I have lived there for the past year and am afraid to tell you that as with most stereotypes you will be disappointed to learn that women and their rights differ from country to country. From a legal perspective they might be viewed upon poorly (in comparison to western more precise US standards) Let me tell you though, that the role of the women in society has changed dramatically (especially in egypt but also Jordan). There are of course no numbers and I would start stereotyping if I said, that the husbands to the talking outside the house while the wives RULE inside. I would advise you (as I woul in the case of poor disturbed charles) to go and visit the countries and learn about the people and their culture.Only who has truly tried to live with them will be able to understand.<BR><BR>Yours sincerely<BR><BR>ANON

Back to Charles' question...<BR>Frankly we've struggled with this one for years - there are a lot -- a lot-- of entries on our family tree annotated with stars of David indicating the person perished in the camps. And to be honest we've tended to skirt around Germany and Austria in our travels, not because we think either country is in the grip of hateful or racist leaders (although especially in Austria political trends are troubling) but because we haven't had the need to go there very much in our itineraries. (That may well be a lame rationale and we know it.) <BR><BR>The other posters have pointed out that hate and genocide are not new things in history, and they still continue today. Where one draws the line, and elects not to visit or to protest, is subjective and personal. Lord knows there are plenty of circumstances all over the world where "ethical tourism" is a hard row to hoe.<BR><BR>Never forget are the watchwords, and if visiting Dachau or Auschwitz is a device to insure you never forget, or to teach the next generations, then go, go now. Visit Germany and Austria and Poland, and when you talk to people in these countries, make sure they know you're visiting the camps and that you intend not to forget. <BR><BR>It's a curious thing - we've observed lots of Israelis, including some of our family, making visits to these countries repeatedly, and finding friendship and understanding way more commonplace than hostility or inhospitable behavior. And the times we've visited Yad Vashem (the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem) we've been struck by how many German-speaking visitors, young and old, we've encountered there. Healing and recovery are hard words to grasp, but millions of people are working hard at it. So go, Charles, and teach your children, and never forget.

You are visiting one of the most civilised and humane countries on earth, one that has struggled openly and frankly with the legacy of its history, and which has also been racked by the grief of war and vengeance during C20 as very few others have. If you close your heart to Germany and the Germans, then I am afraid you will internalise a little of the viciousness which led to the calamity of the Holocaust - if only a very little.<BR><BR>I am astonished at how open and brave the German establishment has been in the face of its terrible heritage. All my life, I have watched my own government and people vaccilate and equivocate about their history. It behoves all of us to show faith in Germany's moral courage.<BR><BR>Would that Ariel Sharon were as brave confronting the ghosts of Lebanon.

The world's way overpopulated...get over it.

In response to the remark about Ariel Sharon:<BR><BR>...or that Yasir Arafat could face the ghosts of the civilians he has murdered, both as a terrorist and as a leader.<BR><BR>Or etc. etc.<BR><BR>One standard should be universal. More often than not, it isn't.

Sorry, but Ariel Sharon by far tops Arafat when it comes to civilian body counts. After all, he served under Menachem Begin, who referred to Palestinians as "two-legged animals." Charming. It seems that those who remember history without learning from it are doomed to repeat its patterns. The upshot is that, depressingly, the Holocaust has not proven to be the great lesson in tolerance and intolerance that it could/should have been. I think travel boycotts, if there must be travel boycotts, should be directed against governments actively violating human rights -- China, for instance -- because when it comes to violent histories, there isn't a clean pair of hands in the world. Just my opinion.

This is a wonderful topic! I have travelled throughout all of Europe but never Germany. Primarily for the reason that you mention. However, I also won't go to Vietnam because of our involvement there and all of the loss as well. I realize that there are some people who feel that I may be narrow-minded in my thinking by not visiting a place because of wars/destruction, etc. and perhaps my mind will be changed in the future, but right now this works for me. Reading these other posts is interesting. I realize that many people who live in Germany were born after the war, but there's still a part of me that just doesn't really want to spend my vacation there. Interestingly, I have heard Elie Weisel speak on four separate occasions (author of Night, Dawn, etc.). He has been to Germany and explained how forgiving but not forgetting is the main thing (I'm paraphrasing here folks!). When I was in Prague I went to Terezin on a tour led by a survivor and he also explained that he goes to Germany 3 times a year to ensure that the high school students there are made aware of what happened. So, I suppose what this means is that we all have to make our own decisions based upon what makes us comfortable. I hope you have an enjoyable vacation and really do thank you for bringing up such an interesting thread.