Inflammatory subject, but, I need help.
 

We are traveling to Germany soon. My wife and I have traveled to much of Europe. She has wanted to tour Germany for a long time. I have resisted because of the history of what the Germans did to the Jews. <BR>I am not Jewish, but, know a Polish family who was actually incarcerated in one of the camps. <BR>I know families who lost several members to this horror fighting against the Germans. <BR> <BR>I carry this vision with me in a heavy heart and hold some resentment toward Germany and it's citizens. <BR>I know enough of history to realize this persecution has repeatedly occurred throughout the world. <BR>How do you other travelers cope with these images, with the knowledge of what has happened in our own lifetime? This isn't ancient history, it was yesterday, in the scope of history. <BR>I pray that this anger, this resentment is lifted from my heart. How do you cope with these feelings? Surely, some of you must feel the same. <BR>Please, sincere replies only. <BR>

Sorry, can't help. Feel the same way.

Born at the beginning of the baby boom, not Jewish, but aware of what happened in Nazi Germany from a very young age, I have been to Italy, Greece, France several times, and to England, Spain, Portugal. I have not been to Germany, though I know it's beautiful and interesting. I'm just beginning to consider going there. This may be silly, but part of my "reasoning" is that the people who caused, implemented, or by their complicity supported the Nazi horrors are now, if not actually dead, at least partially neutralized by age, disease or senility. It makes me feel a little friendlier toward Germany, which is now populated by just plain "people" who cannot reasonably be blamed for what was done in the 30's and early 40's.

I will also go anon, since I feel badly about this, I suppose. I have Germany low on my list: I'm sure it has unique lovely spots, but frankly too many other places have them also, and I don't believe that all of their old attitudes have died out sufficiently to get me there. For the same reason, I ignore China and many of the communist countries: If I don't support how they treat their citizens and their basic ideologies, why give them my money and time? Sure, I'll miss some sights and experiences, but life is full of them, so don't hate *me* or others who feel that way, just go and enjoy them yourself should you choose. <BR>But, that just leaves more room for the people who do want to hit it, I reason. <BR>None of this, of course, helps you with your dilemma with your wife. Good luck!

This is an interesting set of issues -- well more than interesting. <BR> <BR>By the criteria of avoiding countries where there are ongoing abuses of parts of the citizenry or abuses in the recent past or so egregious that they are never to be forgiven -- well that blocks out just about everywhere in the world from traveling. [or residing for that matter!] <BR> <BR>As someone who teaches ethics and has a strong personal and professional interest in the Balkans [where revenge and oppression have a long history -- it's been a veritable regional "sport"] I think a lot about these issues. And it's not easy to reconcile my belief that humans *are* good with what humans do/have done/will do to other humans. Is it human nature after all? Or is it particular cultural developments? I don't know. With regard to the Holocaust I would recommend Christopher Browning's "Ordinary Men" for one version of the Nazi dynamic. <BR> <BR>Have I traveled to germany? Yes. Often during the 70s when my brother worked there. Would I travel there in the future? Probably -- but this time specifically to see the museum and memorial in Berlin. <BR> <BR>I remember a thread where someone's spouse thought it was too "depressing" to visit one of the Nazi internment camps. What we do on vacation is a personal choice. BUT, there is that old saw: that if we don't learn history [and travel is one of the best ways!] we are doomed to repeat it.

Dear Charles,being a German,born in the fifties I can understand your question. Germans live with their past and accept it as part of their history. We have again a strong jewish community which plays a role in politics and everyday life . Antisemitism nowadays is worldwide still existing and is a problem even in the US. In fact laws in the states allow internet homepages of right wing extremists,which would take you here right into prison. <BR>If you come to Germany as a tourist you will find an open-minded friendly society and a phantastic countyside,historic cities and a very happy atmosphere. I think that history should not be forgotten,but I have come for many years to the US without thinking of the ill fate of black Americans and Indians many years ago. <BR>Your society has changed and ours as well.We should open our minds and understand,that any nation has black spots in its history. <BR>Have a good time in Germany and enjoy your stay !

I am writing anon as well. I do understand your feelings. When we were in Munich we were determined to visit Dachau to pay our respects to the victims of the holocaust who had died there. First of all the public transport there was not well advertised, but we got there and found it a moving experience. We were pleased we went and although I am not Jewish I feel the same outrage about what happened.This experience has not put me off visiting Germany, although I experienced the war as achild in a often bombed city in Uk. You cannot visit the sins of the fathers on the children and we need to forgive the past without forgetting what happened. <BR>Strangely, I felt rather differently when I visited Hiroshima and Nagasaki war museums. The hostility of the locals was quite palpable and yet while I regretted the lives lost I can recall that the Japanese would have continued the war without the action taken. We may disagree about this as feelings towards former enemies are often very subjective.

I'm planning a trip to Germany next year and found myself thinking about this very subject. <BR> <BR>After much thought, here's what I think: <BR>I felt that Germany today is different that Germany under Hitler. The same can be said for the US. Should I be punished for what happened here to African Americans during slavery? My answer to that is no. I never took part nor would I ever take part in what occurred during that time. Is there still racism in both countries? Yes, which is a shame, but I'm not part of that. Should I punish myself or the people of Germany today for what happened in the past? I say no, hence, my trip to Germany next year. I'm looking foward to not only seeing the beautiful country, but meeting many of the wonderful German people. <BR> <BR>Everyone has to decide for themselves what is right for them personally. Maybe spending some time there will help you come to terms with what happened and allow you to replace some of the sadness with a few fond memories of time spent with your wife. <BR> <BR>

Charles, <BR> <BR>It's nice to know that so many of us have had similar feelings. I am also one of "those" people who feel other's pain. It can cause a real problem sometimes. <BR> <BR>My mother in law is a German woman born several years before the war and it is heartbreaking to hear how she and her family suffered through and for years afterward. In many ways the German people were victims those horrible leaders too. I will not go into details , but having met this woman I can tell you I now have a different view of things. <BR> <BR>I can also tell you that my first trip to Germany (for business and could not be avoided) I was actually shocked to see a thriving Jewish neighborhood in Frankfurt! I will not tell you it is a perfect place with no discrimination because I honestly don't know. Visiting concentration camps and other Nazi related places is something I will ever do. I have however made lots of friends over the past 10 years in Germany, just as I have in Zimbabwe, Brazil and Spain. <BR> <BR>Charles do try to open your heart not just to the German people but to all mankind. You indicated that you pray for this and I will assume that if you are a Christian you know that it is by God's Grace alone that saves each of us. Try not to judge another person or an entire race by what their forefathers have done. Remember the prayer that never fails: "THY WILL BE DONE". Good luck to you.

It is certainly understandable that someone whose family was involved in the terror of Nazi Germany might find the idea of a visit tough to stomach. As a boomer kid whose dad had lots to say about Krauts and Japs and who remembered the weekly newsreels that brought WWII history into our classrooms, I found it at least a little eerie to be headed to Germany for a year of study as well. <BR> <BR>But my visit to Germany brought unanticipated enlightenment. I lived in a dorm where interracial couples were far more commonplace than at home. I learned that it was now a crime to deny the Holocaust, and I wondered whether our society would have had the moral fortitude to abbrogate our fist amendment rights in this way had we been the perpetrators of Nazism. I learned that Germans now referred to Hitler not as the "Führer", but as their "Verführer", or one who leads others astray. But most impressive was that I met lots and lots of people who completely understood why my parents' generation had bombed the living hell out of their country and killed so many of their own relatives. I was always treated respectfully and graciously by Germans, who sometimes invited me to their homes and expressed concern about how they are perceived by the rest of the world some 25 years after the war -- and never once was our own mini-holocaust against native Americans thrown in my face as though I were personally responsible for those crimes. <BR> <BR>I believe Germany is a model for other countries on how to behave after having allowed oneself to be horribly misled. My many subsequent visits have led me to see it as a place that is far more free from racial prejudice and violence than is our own society. We can perpetuate our stereotypes of the past, or we can travel and learn.

Charles <BR>I disagree that Germany is a example of racial tolerance. I don't see that anymore than I do in most other countries. The intolerance shown towards the turkish immigrants is one example - houses and hostels where they reside have been burnt ect. The neo nazi movement is growing in Germany primarily but also over Europe and N America. I do though think that we all bear some responsibilty for the events of the past. The UK and other countries showed ignorance at what was obviously happening under their noses. Other nations though such as Holland and Denmark offered amazing help to Jewish people in their own countries without thinking of the personal cost to themselves. We in the UK did little initially to help the Jewish people. We could have done so much more but initially chose not too. The evidence was there, we chose to ignore it. The Christian church also apart from some individuals were in many ways not worthy of being called followers of Christ in how it stood by and watched. Being silent is (in my view) as bad as taking part. It is condoning all that is happening. But it is not easy to stand and be counted. I hope and pray if the situation arose again I would do what is right despite the cost. <BR>I live in Germany but am not German and I find it hard at times,having said that it is a beautiful country and well worth visiting. You will be made welcome particularly if you try a few words of German. <BR>I often think if Hitler had been for example British could it have happened in Britain. I also try to think what it was about the German economy/nature ect at that time that allowed such inhumanity and evil. The issues are so complex. <BR>While I think the German people and all of us to some extent must bear some responsibilty and remember all that happened, I don't think it is up to us to inflict more guilt on others or judgement. That is not our responsibilty, I think we will all be judged one day for our actions and how we led our lives so I have no doubt that those responsible in any way will be held to account. <BR>It is good to think through these issues and it is a valid question.

Angela: You will find isolated incidents of racial intolerance in every country, such as those against Turks in Germany. I still think you'll find fewer of these in Germany than elsewhere, and more concern about them. Germany is and has always been under a media microscope whenever racial tensions are in evidence (in fact, the only news about Germany you can ever find seems to regard hate crimes) -- even small incidents are cause for a column in our papers. In the last 12 months, there have been several hate crimes against blacks, Jews and immigrants within 20 miles of my home in California -- a burned cross, graffiti scrawled across homes, mail threats, a burned synagogue, the like. Here, there were no mass protests against the perpetrators of the incidents, as often happens in Germany. In Germany, such acts are cause for great concern, and people hit the streets to raise awareness. Such things are forgetten here rather easily in comparison.

Charles <BR>The most impressive statement I have read in 3 trips to Europe and 1 to OZ & NZ, was on our first trip in 1984 to Germany. It is carved on a memorial at Dachau - in essence, to prevent recurrence in the future, we must remember the past!! I have both german and czech ancestry. I wanted to see history. Dachau was/is particularly interesting historically because all nationalities were there, Religious, political, etc. We were there on a brillantly sunny day, but you could still feel the oppression and the magnitude of the tragedy. Nothing I had read in books or seen in movies at that time, has ever left a greater impact/memory of the loss that ocurred in World War II. Only visiting the D Day beaches and cemetary has equaled that visit. <BR> <BR>Truly if we are honest and avoided places where persecution took place, could we visit most places in the world? Look what our American ancestors did to the Indians and then, in World War II to Japanese Americans. I have also visited the Jewish Quarter in Prague to see how the czechs treated the Jews. Think about how France treated their poor, how Australians originally treated their natives. The list could go on. <BR>I think almost all countries at some time or another in history (or currently) have (or are) made moves which have been against humanity. <BR>Hopefully by traveling we individuals learn, develop a better understanding of others (or at least better tolerance) and help prevent future inhumanities to man, if not on a global but a daily basis.

Russ <BR> <BR>Hope I was not misunderstood. If you read back I did say that I don't see racial tolerance more apparent in Germany than any other country. Implying therefore that I know very well intolerance of others exists everywhere. I personally don't see Germany as being better (or worse) than others. It is true when you say that such racial incidents are often met in Germany with public outcry as it's own nations past is very close to the average Germans heart. In the UK it is not always the case, I have no experience of the US with regard to this. <BR>Angela

The best way I could suggest is to get to know individual Germans. We have friends who both grew up in Berlin. AFter 20 years I finally got up the courage to ask them about the war. Their response was, it was very hard, we had family members who starved to death. I once dated a Jewish man whose father and grandmother had been in Theresienstadt (his grandfather had been Protestant, or they would have gone somewhere worse and likely perished). I, too, know many families who lost if not lives, then certainly youth and innocence and peace of mind in fighting that (and other) wars. I doubt many families American were spared that. Do you know any veterans of WWII who travel to Europe? Maybe asking them this question would help. How do you travel to France with the knowledge of the Vichy government? How do you travel to Italy with the knowledge of Mussolini? Spain? As other have pointed out, we could go on and on with that list. How about Switzerland? Austria, Hitler's homeland? Germany was devasted economically after WWI (by war reparations) and many would argue that the economic devastation led to a susceptibility to Nationalist (Nazi) ideology. So maybe the whole world has learned a lesson. AFter WWII, denying Japan much of a military freed much capital for investment in technology and other companies. (Sort of like denying the US tobacco companies the ability to spend on advertising=bulk up their bottom line; another subject.) My dad and uncle both served in the Pacific during WWII, but that hasn't stopped any of us from buying Toshibas or Panasonics or Sonys, or indeed traveling there. I think it helped my dad to be back in Japan during the Korean Conflict/War, and to get to know Japanese personally. Sometimes people do what their governments tell them to do--whether it is palatable or not. We can't all be Dietrich Bonhoeffers (but if you don't know his story, look it up). God help us, some of us have families we want to protect and feed.

I am a WWII Vet - been to Germany many times - saw the complete distruction of entire cities/complete blocks, etc. Remember Germany was also under a severe depression just like we were. Hitler came along at the right time and promised the population a return of their pride using the effects after WWI. Remember how proud the average german soldier was when he returned to Paris and signed the treaty in the same RR Car used after WWI. Now my bottom line is: LET THE FIRST STONE BE TOSSED BY THE PERSON WHO IS COMPLETELY FREE OF SIN. Ask yourself what have I done the last day/week/month/year for someone who is less fortunate than I. Your answer might surprise you. My advise (although you have not asked)is to enjoy life while you can. Hope I have helped.

I too am planning to visit Germany this fall. My parents were born in Berlin. They were fortunate and got out just in time. 40 other relatives were not so lucky. I am a 1st generation American. I have struggled with the idea of visiting my parents, grandparents birthplace, as well as the grave of my grandfather whome I never knew...but feel the need to do so. I hope you enjoy your tirp. We will never forget...and traveling is a lesson in history as well.

If I condemned a country for the sins of its history I'd have to skip England (my family is Irish, but you could throw in any number of other oppressed minorities). <BR> <BR>I'd also have to skip Belgium (what happened in African Congo competes with Nazi attrocities), Turkey (Armenians), Japan (Manchuria, WWII, oppression of minorities), France (Africa), Spain and Portugal (the native populations of most of the western hemisphere), Russia (the pogroms).... I could go on. <BR> <BR>I'd probably be well advised to give up my U.S. citizenship as well, citing the treatment of Native Americans, African Americans, Japanese internees, etc. <BR> <BR>There are very bad people and very good people in every place and at every time. If you condemn one, you should proabably condemn them all, just to be even-handed, and you'd never travel again.

Go, if not with an open heart, then with an open mind. As you learn more, understand more, then maybe your resentment- hate -will become sadness and compassion for mankind as a whole. <BR> <BR>The Holocaust was a crime against humans by humans, as was Manchuria, the Russian pogroms, the destruction of Aborigines and Native Americans... those involved should be judged as people, not as Germans, Japanese, Russians etc. Germany is diminished by the Holocaust but so is the rest of humanity. <BR> <BR>I hope this has been of some help. Good luck.

Racism is as old as history and will exist until the end of time. I doubt that any country can consider itself superior to any other when it comes to racial issues. I've seen racism, to one degree or another, everywhere I've been. A part of life virtually everywhere, sad but true. <BR> <BR>In the States I've seen a type of racism between urban blacks and inner-city blacks. <BR> <BR>And speaking of black people, I've noticed their plight mentioned in several references to the U.S. but only one mention of what happend to the American Indians, and furthermore, what is happening to them still. <BR> <BR>A man named Leonard Peltier, an Oglala Sioux, is being held as a political prisoner in a Federal pen in Kanzas. If you're truly interested in racism, look up his case on any number of web sites. <BR> <BR>After reviewing the facts I think most will agree that had Peltier been white he would have been released on parole years ago. Had he been black he would have likely received the preferential treatment often afforded to his race by the American media and different "watchdog" groups. But because he is poor, disenfranchised and a member of a forgetton ethnic group with virtually zero political clout, he remains in prison while billionairs and white house cronies walk free. <BR> <BR>Racism is alive and well everywhere you go. The German's nor the Americans have a patient on it, though some of the rest of the world would like to believe so.

I recommend reading "The Wages of Guilt," by Ian Buruma, in which he discusses the ways that Germany and Japan have dealt with their roles and actions in WWII during the decades following the war. He shows how painfully aware Germans became of the ramifications of Naziism and how they have struggled to keep that awareness front and center so as to prevent any possibility of its reoccurance. Perhaps reading this will give you a different perspective on contemporary Germany and its people and how they regard their own history.

An interesting discussion. Sally, I had the fortune to take a class with Christopher Browning once when he was guest lecturing at his alma mater in Madison. I think it helps to realize that the present government is far removed from the government of the Nazi period. I would advise going with an open mind and learn from the experience. Obviously there are groups in Germany that still cling to the old hate-filled Nazi-era principles, but that is far from uncommon. There are groups here in the U.S. that would probably do just as Hitler if given the chance. I think you should take the German government's reactions to these events (although not always beyond reproach) as evidence that things are vastly different. I believe if you go to Germany with as open a mind as possible, you will find it a mostly pleasant place and the experience rewarding. All this said, given the absolute scale of the Holocaust, it is hard to argue with those who do have such feelings, especially if they or loved ones went through it. Perhaps the greatest debate among historians of the period is whether the Nazis happened because of circumstance or were an extension of German culture and politics. Regardless, the cultural and political experiences of present generations of Germans are vastly different than those of their grandparents.

I am an American living in Germany. I must say that Germany is a beautiful place, but they have, in my opinion, not changed their ideals and ways of thinking enough to satisfy me or a lot of people. Sometimes it scares me to see some of the German 'right extremists' (Nazis). I think that the scariest part is that, in my opinion, the rest of the world does not hear about it. <BR>I know that most Germans are fine people, and don't feel that way anymore, but all in all, I don't feel that the German mindset has been completely changed.

Let's consider the facts here (especially in light of this previous posting here)....("satisfy me..."?? come on, who are you, God???)<BR><BR>* Most Germans nowadays have been born AFTER the war<BR>* Today there is no more, but also no less, anti-semitism or racial intolerance in Germany than ANYWHERE else in the western world (including the US)<BR>* There is a growing Jewish community there numbering 100,000+<BR>* Anything Nazi is TOTALLY forbidden in the democratic post-war republic, but not so in the US<BR>* Humans rights? You forget that the US president (and many many oh-so-righteous Americans) are in favour of the death penalty, and NO western European country allows it anymore<BR><BR>So, yes, there are skinheads and white extremists in Germany, but they are a small small minority, just like in the US. And those acts against the Turkish community are isolated incidents, much like when white rednecks drag an african-american person to death behind their pick up.

To this day I can't visit Italy because of what the Roman Empire did to the Germanic people. Infanticide, enslavement, theft and the enforcement of pagan religions.

Hey, the damn Japs still don't even admit they did anything wrong. They say we were the "bad guys" dropping atom bombs on them for no reason. Meanwhile they killed millions of Chinese. How many even really the atrocities the Nips administered to American Prisoners of War? Dr. Mengele pales in comparison to the stuff Japanese "doctors" did to Chinese and even Japanese women.

I had similar feelings for a long time. I lost about 40 relatives in Auschwitz. Then I met my husband whose father was from Germany. His grandfather was held in a labor camp for refusing to serve in the German army. His uncle was taken away, never to be seen again for refusing to fight. The entire family spent most of the war trying to flee Hitler. My father in law taught me that Germans can be warm and inviting, and that I cannot hold an entire nation accountable for what happened to my people. I hope, Charles, that you post your experience and impressions of Germany when you return.

It may help if you consider what "Germany" means - there was no such place until recently, it was just a collection of states - America is much older than Germany.<BR>Also Hitler was Austrian, also the "poor Poles" themselves launched a vicious pogrom against the Jews after the war was finished.<BR>As did others.<BR>So blame doesn't just rest with "Germany".<BR>They had many enthusiastic helpers all over the world, and many enemies at home.<BR>Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...

My nationality is 100% german (at least so far as you can be 100% anything), and I have felt much the same as the original poster... I have not been to Germany (at least so far) and have struggled with the same thoughts and concerns - more so as I've travelled overseas, and tried to picture, for instance, living in England, during the Blitz . The responses here have been thought-provoking and enlighting (and, until I got to the Douglas Mac post above, I was thinking - wow, you really can have an intelligent conversation on Fodors without the brainless bigmouths showing up...)As it happens, I sat down here with an open book in my hands - one about Anne Frank that I'd picked up when we visited that house in Amsterdam just last month, and had just finished reading details of the actual capture in the annex. We can't change history, but (if we don't ignore it) we can learn from it...and change ourselves.

What about our little genocide of the Native Americans ? We've got alot of skeletons in our closet too. Forgive but don't forget.

Sorry guys but i think you are so busy thinking about images (mostly projected by movies which have as much truth aboiut them as buying property on the mars) of others that you might forget your own.<BR><BR>Just a glimpse at your own history,<BR>McCarthy who would have liked to burn all Kommunists, Racisms against not only blacks but also most other majorities (eventhough the blacks belonged to the ones most prominently pictured in history ...I wont go back to the indians), but not only in your country has manking lived up to its reputation as beeing earths most cruel animal, you also managed to spread the US good vibes to Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Korea, Panama City Libya ...I better stop ! So when you start focusing on these images you have of germany I would come to advise you to visit the country and find out that Germany and its people are as dumb or as intelligent, as friendly or as unhospitable as rude or as friendly as any other nation. <BR><BR>I guess it has a reason why a guy like Georgi boy is your president after all ... he knows about as much about germany as you do....from the movies

Not to excuse anyone's inhumanity, but if you more than a shallow knowledge of history, you will be aware that there is probably not one group of people, anywhere on earth, at any time on earth, that has not, at one point or another, behaved in an utterly inhumane manner or been treated in an inhumane manner. We aren't born good - we're born feral with an overriding need to survive. Hitler was able to rise to power because so many Germans were - literally - dying of starvation. He identified what he thought was the reason for that and proposed a solution. Desperate, ignorant people responded. That doesn't excuse what was done to the Jews, who weren't responsible, except in Hitler's mind. But if you believe any of us would behave differently, then you've never been afraid for your life or watched your children go without food. Imagine yourself isolated from any source of information under those circumstances and see what you do. Most people would say, "No, I would never behave like that!" Then go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans and watch people push each other under vehicles just to capture some beads. If you believe Germans - or any group - is evil compared to yourself, stay away from them. I'm reluctant to spend my travel dollars in the Middle East, where women are treated like dirt, but I don't believe the citizenry of those countries to be particularly worse than citizens of any other place.

....just as there are many from the Middle East who hate America for it's support of the Palestinian genocide and the death camps there.

HEY SHANNA,<BR><BR>I share naturally most of your oppinions except for the last. Have you been to the middle east ? I have lived there for the past year and am afraid to tell you that as with most stereotypes you will be disappointed to learn that women and their rights differ from country to country. From a legal perspective they might be viewed upon poorly (in comparison to western more precise US standards) Let me tell you though, that the role of the women in society has changed dramatically (especially in egypt but also Jordan). There are of course no numbers and I would start stereotyping if I said, that the husbands to the talking outside the house while the wives RULE inside. I would advise you (as I woul in the case of poor disturbed charles) to go and visit the countries and learn about the people and their culture.Only who has truly tried to live with them will be able to understand.<BR><BR>Yours sincerely<BR><BR>ANON

Back to Charles' question...<BR>Frankly we've struggled with this one for years - there are a lot -- a lot-- of entries on our family tree annotated with stars of David indicating the person perished in the camps. And to be honest we've tended to skirt around Germany and Austria in our travels, not because we think either country is in the grip of hateful or racist leaders (although especially in Austria political trends are troubling) but because we haven't had the need to go there very much in our itineraries. (That may well be a lame rationale and we know it.) <BR><BR>The other posters have pointed out that hate and genocide are not new things in history, and they still continue today. Where one draws the line, and elects not to visit or to protest, is subjective and personal. Lord knows there are plenty of circumstances all over the world where "ethical tourism" is a hard row to hoe.<BR><BR>Never forget are the watchwords, and if visiting Dachau or Auschwitz is a device to insure you never forget, or to teach the next generations, then go, go now. Visit Germany and Austria and Poland, and when you talk to people in these countries, make sure they know you're visiting the camps and that you intend not to forget. <BR><BR>It's a curious thing - we've observed lots of Israelis, including some of our family, making visits to these countries repeatedly, and finding friendship and understanding way more commonplace than hostility or inhospitable behavior. And the times we've visited Yad Vashem (the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem) we've been struck by how many German-speaking visitors, young and old, we've encountered there. Healing and recovery are hard words to grasp, but millions of people are working hard at it. So go, Charles, and teach your children, and never forget.

You are visiting one of the most civilised and humane countries on earth, one that has struggled openly and frankly with the legacy of its history, and which has also been racked by the grief of war and vengeance during C20 as very few others have. If you close your heart to Germany and the Germans, then I am afraid you will internalise a little of the viciousness which led to the calamity of the Holocaust - if only a very little.<BR><BR>I am astonished at how open and brave the German establishment has been in the face of its terrible heritage. All my life, I have watched my own government and people vaccilate and equivocate about their history. It behoves all of us to show faith in Germany's moral courage.<BR><BR>Would that Ariel Sharon were as brave confronting the ghosts of Lebanon.

The world's way overpopulated...get over it.

In response to the remark about Ariel Sharon:<BR><BR>...or that Yasir Arafat could face the ghosts of the civilians he has murdered, both as a terrorist and as a leader.<BR><BR>Or etc. etc.<BR><BR>One standard should be universal. More often than not, it isn't.

Sorry, but Ariel Sharon by far tops Arafat when it comes to civilian body counts. After all, he served under Menachem Begin, who referred to Palestinians as "two-legged animals." Charming. It seems that those who remember history without learning from it are doomed to repeat its patterns. The upshot is that, depressingly, the Holocaust has not proven to be the great lesson in tolerance and intolerance that it could/should have been. I think travel boycotts, if there must be travel boycotts, should be directed against governments actively violating human rights -- China, for instance -- because when it comes to violent histories, there isn't a clean pair of hands in the world. Just my opinion.

This is a wonderful topic! I have travelled throughout all of Europe but never Germany. Primarily for the reason that you mention. However, I also won't go to Vietnam because of our involvement there and all of the loss as well. I realize that there are some people who feel that I may be narrow-minded in my thinking by not visiting a place because of wars/destruction, etc. and perhaps my mind will be changed in the future, but right now this works for me. Reading these other posts is interesting. I realize that many people who live in Germany were born after the war, but there's still a part of me that just doesn't really want to spend my vacation there. Interestingly, I have heard Elie Weisel speak on four separate occasions (author of Night, Dawn, etc.). He has been to Germany and explained how forgiving but not forgetting is the main thing (I'm paraphrasing here folks!). When I was in Prague I went to Terezin on a tour led by a survivor and he also explained that he goes to Germany 3 times a year to ensure that the high school students there are made aware of what happened. So, I suppose what this means is that we all have to make our own decisions based upon what makes us comfortable. I hope you have an enjoyable vacation and really do thank you for bringing up such an interesting thread.