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I am still waiting to hear a better "transliteration" for <<une>> than "yoon".
I don't really know why Fodors shut down this thread - - http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34545411 - - but at least two "prominent" and reasonably respected veteran Fodorites decried my "phonetic spelling" of how to pronounce the French word <i><b>une</b></i>. I wrote it as "yoon".
The argument is NOT over how to pronounce "une". I know how to pronounce it, and I know how to describe what to do with your mouth to do it. But if a non-French speaker wants a "cheat sheet" reminder of how to say "une", then I want to know - - what better pseudo-phonetic spelling could there be than "yoon"? There is a hint of "een" or "yeen", and clearly, "oon" way misses the boat. What better representation would a French (and American English) speaker make, that is more on target than "yoon"? I think this can be civilly discussed. Best wishes, Rex |
I think I might phonetically spell it "eewn". But if I could, I'd only put in 1.5 e's. It's a shorter ee sound than ee implies, but longer than just one e would be there.
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Well, I do at least respect your serious reply, jlm. I even did think that maybe "ee-oon" might be better (there has been an objection to using a "y" to represent the vowel iin une).
But I go back to the notion that this is intended as a crutch for someone who has not studied French. Show yoon and eewn and ee-oon (or even ee-yoon) to a hundred people on the street, nd I think they will immediately know how to pronounce the first, and stumble over the other to (or three). Moreover, record and play back whatever they say, given those three transliterations- - and I bet there will be NO correlation to what they were shown and what it sounded like when they tried to pronounce it. But I will gladly ask for a poll - - if you have NOT studied French - - are you more comfortable knowing how to approach "yoon" or "eewn"? |
Thinking further, maybe "ewn" ought to be a candidate also. Would it really be pronounced different than "yoon"?
Does anyone actually propose that there is a difference between you, yoo and ewe? |
I'd say, put your lips like you are going to say a E but say a U. But I can;t do it :)
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While we're at it, I'll take any candidates others want to thrwo out for Etats Unis, also.
I would write: Ay-tahz-yoo-nee intentionlly expressing it as if it is all one word; ay-tah-zyoo-nee looks more intimidating to non-French speakers, I submit. |
No "descriptive intructions" allowed, mimi...
Write it as you would for a cheat sheet. |
What does that mean?
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Might as well add the ü in the mix. The official phonetic representation of the French "u" as in <i>une</i> and ü is a y, if I remember correctly.
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My French teacher many years ago told us to form our mouths as if saying the letter "o." Then, holding that pose, try to say "e."
But the, I'm immediately pegged as an American in France, so I guess I'm not doing it right anyway. :-) |
I get by with <i>uhn</i> from the throat which forces you to eat the <i>n</i> sound. |
<<Write it as you would for a cheat sheet.>>
Author: cigalechanta Date: 12/10/2004, 07:54 pm Message: What does that mean? ============================ You're serious, I assume... Write it, with <b>one</b> "word", as if for a phrase book, like a Berlitz, or a Rick Steves... |
<<I get by with <i>uhn</i> from the throat which forces you to eat the n sound.>>
This sounds like how you would try to represent "un", not "une". |
Author: rex ([email protected])
Date: 12/10/2004, 07:42 pm Message: Thinking further, maybe "ewn" ought to be a candidate also. Would it really be pronounced different than "yoon"? Does anyone actually propose that there is a difference between you, yoo and ewe?" Yes Rex, I propose there is a difference. I pronounce it "ewn" as "ew" doesn't have the "y" sound of "yoon". I have taught French for 5 years, and still studying the language after 35 years. I have never been pegged as an American in France. Instead I am always pegged as a Brit. It's amazing. I have finally decided that it is something in my deep Southern drawl that sounds more like a British brogue than most of the American accents they hear. Now, all that said, I am still unsure of why we are discussing this. There is not enough help on a travel board for a non-French speaker. And I don't think their pronunciation of "une" is going to make or break them. |
Ok...OON
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actually "une" is easy once you have heard it said aloud. "Un" is harder to describe and harder to get right in speech, IMHO
Rex, let's hear you say (or spell phonetically) that most beautiful of sentences: "La lune ne garde aucune rancune" |
T.S. Elliot? The moon harbors no ill feelings,, or maybe resentments?
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"Yoo" and "ew" are diphthongs: ee-oo, but "une" contains a pure vowel, pronounced as others have suggested by rounding the lips for "o" and saying "ee". It cannot be represented in Roman orthography.
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<<Now, all that said, I am still unsure of why we are discussing this.>>
Because I was lampooned, without any alternative spelling, on the aforementioned thread. But I admit that this is all a futile exercise. Representing "une" is a piece of cake, compared to yeux. I just <i><b>do not</b></i> have a good way to represent this word in (American) "English" spelling, I don't care what letters you want to put together. Ironically, it's not that hard to explain. Start with wood (or would or should or could or good), remove the "d" sound, and substitute "y" for the first consonant. Not perfect, but reasonably close. Now for "La lune ne garde aucune rancune" Recognizing that this butchers its beauty (byoo-tee)... lah lyoon nuh gard oh-kewn raw-kyoon - - or I might substitute raw(n)-kyoon - - but I would want to explain that the (n) means that there is a "flavor" of "n", nut no actually "n sound". I would use the example "donkey" versus Don Key (which has a clear "n sound"). "donkey" isn't really pronounced "daw-kee" - - I would represent it as "daw(n)-kee", as opposed to "Dahn Kee" (the name). Un neuf, Inn dide... un neuf... |
"une" does not have a y in front of it, not at all. For a non-French speaker, "oon" would be perfectly fine.
I think the English word "tune" is pretty accurate, without the "t" in front. |
Enough indeed -- but one final piece of info:
"Yeux" is easy if you have seen that appalling scene near the end of the mind-numbingly vapid "Sound of Music" where those repellent Trapp children are obliged to sing, rhymingly but meaninglessly: "Adieu, adieu to Yeu and Yeu and Yeu-uh!" That's the sound. |
Mr.Rex comes across as a fat turd.
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Rex: My instinct tells me to tell you to give it a rest, for goodness' sake. But let's just be clear on one thing. There is NO "Y" sound in "une," so whatever your take on phonetics may be, the "YOON" suggestion is silly - and misleading.
There is also NO hint of een or yeen - what are you thinking? You've gotten far better suggestions from several people here. And if anyone wants to know how to pronounce "une" there are all kinds of web resources available to them, without going the phonetic route, which is, well, rather passé, wouldn't you say, when you can turn on your computer or load a CD and actually hear someone pronounce something correctly? You're trying to manufacture some sort of phonetic system that is something between the actual dictionary phonetics, which nobody understands anymore, and your own somewhat loony understanding of pronounciation, and it just isn't working. My advice is Give Up. For one thing, it's not that important. Ten minutes in France and you'll have heard a zillion people pronounce "une" and will if you have half a brain be able to approximate it. And it won't sound like "yoon." |
Ah, A breath of sanity to save us.
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une = oon (no "y" sound, never been, never will).
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Hi
I would have said "oon" gets you pretty close for most of France. However in the South "ooner" is closer because of the local accent. "ooner bagetter" = one baguette here. Peter The Languedoc Page |
Have asked several friends who do not speak french to pronounce "yoon" and it always comes out rhyming with "loon" - very flat and nowhere near where near "une".
I think the "ewn" or "eewn" is closer because it at least makes people try to get near that pused lips sort of sound (although I really don;t think its possible to do properly unless you learn as a tiny child). |
Thank you, Christina! See how simple this can be folks.
In spite of sensitivity to lampooning, I do adore Rex and his obsessions. ps I don't understand why that thread was pulled either. Maybe they were afraid of sandi turning into a travelnut. |
...or a loony-yoon.
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I think the oo in 'loon' is the closest for spelling purposes
it actually requires more forward lip puckering than that, but it will do |
Well, I am ready to give up, more than a little bit baffled, but convinced that this revolves around how Americans see, hear and say... these two vowel sounds, when presented with "ew" and "oo".
I note that on www.fodors.com/language they use "ewn". And when liaison'd to a word ending in "s" (je voudrais, for example), they write "zewn". I continue to have no idea what is the difference between "ewe" and "you" or "yew". But I recognize (and I don't think this is very clearly a regional thing in the US) that plenty of people just do not or will not put a "y" sound in Tuesday or tumor or dewdrop or dues or lunar or lubricate or neurotic or nucleic A leading consonant does seem to matter. I find it hard to believe that anyone does not think that these are analogous differences: English - - bucolic and boot French - - bu (j'ai bu) and bout English - - duty (or dew) and doom French - - du and doux (though Americans seem quite split on "dew" - - especially in parts of the country where "Mountain Dew" is very popular and is identical to "hairdo"; those same Americans unflinchingly refer to the chemical company as Doopont). English - - mule and moon French - - muni and moule English - - new and noon French - - nu and nous This pair maybe highlights the American split as well as any. Clearly, there are NooYawkers who NEVER say nYoo York. English - - pew (or putrid) and pool French - - pu (j'ai pu) and poulet So, I withdraw "yoon" - - as much as I think it is clearer and less intimidating for those who have never studied French - - and will submit to "ewn". I am convinced that this was never over <i><b>how to say it</b></i>, but rather the limitations of how to "mock spell" that pronunciation. I reacted stridently (and still do) to being told that I was being "silly, and misleading". With that... je vous souhaite tous, une bonne journée. |
rex
<i>You</i>, <i>yew,</i> and <i>ewe</i> all contain the diphthong ee-oo. <i>Une</i> does not. And there's no way you can spell the pure vowel <i><b>y</b></i> (that's an IPA grapheme, not the letter "Y") in the Roman alphabet. So your decision to give up is well-advised. |
On a lighter note
If you rent French Kiss..and listen to Kevin Kline try to get Meg Ryan to pronounce his name "Luc"...you will hear, sort of, what the 'u' in une should sound like Unfortunately there is, I believe, no english equivalent for pronouncing such french words as "eux" "une" "oeuf" etc.. Perhaps someone can recommend a site that pronounces words...I thought there is a feature in Windows XP for the visually impaired that "read" a page for you....change your default settings to french and try??? |
Linguists have solved this problem by inventing the International Phonetic Alphabet. It's the only way I know of to indicate pronunciation unambiguously in writing.
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Fair enough, Celia. But the inexperienced will still come here and ask, how do you pronounce "faire une photo?" (which is where this started, less than 48 hours ago)...
It feels rather unsatisfactory to say, "no one can provide a reply to you, <i>unambiguously in writing</i> here on this forum"... I am resigned to provide answers like "fair ewn foe-toe"... :) And if someone (can't imagine this) were to ask how do you pronounce the word "unique" in French, I will say, exactly the same as in English, leaving the actual difference to others who want to expound upon it. I would feel silly saying, oh, it's much more like "oo-neek" - - thinking that would lead to all kinds of confusion ove the cirect promunciation of say... tu and tous... (in Italian, yes, "unico", is indeed "oo-nee-koh"; maybe this difference beween French and Italian has been my point on this, all along). |
Thank goodness the Italians like to hear all the vowels and consonants. And then there's the shorter alphabet. Tell me, Rex, how do we teach the Texans to roll their rrrr's?
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Some of em already know how to say we're RRRockin' RRRollin' RRRumblin' RRRight-thinkin' RRRepublicans...
And they stand behind that rrrather dry-mouthed Mr. RRRumsfeld... But maybe the new Secretary of Commerce, Carlos Gutierrez (sic) can help them... ;) |
What a waste of space this has been.
Jolie has given the mechanics for the correct pronunciation of 'u' and Celia has given the source for all further questions onFrench pronunciation, the science known as 'phonetics'. So don't raise issues like this here where you cannot get a satisfactory answer. harzer |
Waste of space, huh? See http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34545752 - - mister "twin of Wayne" on learning how to "just skip it".
Interesting that fodors - - on www.Fodors.com/language does not consider it pointless to try to represent spoken languages with "pseudo-phonetic words". Sure they provide audio - - but do you really think people don't print these pages out? and buy phrase books, and never listen to the tapes and CDs? I think I am being much more realistic about what is wanted by those who have not studied a language, don't want (or won't master - - probably won't even remember) explanations about how to purse their lips, and just want a first approximation. But anyhow... I'm glad I'm not letting your post get me annoyed! ;) |
Rex, I agree that a good answer to questions of "how should I pronounce this when I go to France next month" is something like "ewn foe-toe" [and to my ear, "ewn" is better than "yoon" for transliterating "une"].
But I sometimes get really frustrated at reading so many opinions which seem to me ill-informed -- as if the writer has no idea that the study of language sounds is a science and that serious people spend lifetimes studying it. I felt I just had to mention the IPA. Ok, I know I'm gonna get slammed for snobbishness and elitism, so I'm ready! |
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