I'm one of those exhaustive planners, beccause I dread having missed a gem of a place just because I didn't know about it.

When I first traveled to Ireland, I discovered upon my return home that I was within miles of my favorite author's house - and that she welcomed visits from fans. I remedied that particular miss on a later trip, and had a great time. But I don't want something like that to happen again!

I was amazed at the beauty of the north coast of Scotland on this trip, and had no idea it was so incredible - didn't see it in any guidebook. Luckily I had planned to have lots of traveling time that day, so there was plenty of time to relax and enjoy it.

"but then there are those like the one's on my tour. Royally upset that "no one told us what to do""

If I were paying the high prices (without air included!) of the tours that are offered, I would expect the tour guide to be telling me what was available to do and see on unscheduled and scheduled time also. Isn't that what they thought they were paying for? To be handheld and guided because they have no idea where they are, what to see, and what to do ?

Fortunately I have never taken one of those tours. I dislike being herded around and having to get back on a bus when I have found a place I want to linger and explore which is why I travel independently, order whatever tickets and reservations I can online in US dollars (and yes I am one of those who arrives with some Euros in my sweaty little fist) usually take a hop on hop off bus to get the lay of the land, and get most of my information from
wonderful Fodorites and online.

And I'm always thankful for other travelers or kind Frenchman/woman who are willing to help if they see me confused or who I approach with questions.

For instance, no book or online place has ever mentioned the canal boat trips pointed out by Zeppole
nor have I ever heard of it on previous two trips to Paris. ((((Zeppole)))

Perhaps because I can be mistaken for French or Italian or Spanish, I have not run into rude Frenchman - with three exceptions, there was the newsstand where
I bought Pariscope and the fellow tried to keep the change - they know we are slow with the conversions; there was the waiter who tacked on 4 alcoholic drinks to my bill, when in fact I hadn't had any (caughtchya); and the Frenchwoman who was unbelievably hostile blaming me for all of the outgoing occupant of the White House's actions! Still I dont blame all of the French for rudeness or thievery from the actions of those three.

I dont speak Francais except for a few phrases,A(shame on me) and I've made my way through France speaking a mixture of Italian and Spanish where no English was spoken. Yet when I have been trying to use an impossible phone card, or find a telephone booth French people who spoke no English have tried to help me.

You know, tolerance is such a good word. And being a pleasant friendly tourist is also helpful.

I think danon and nytraveler hit it on the nose. There's a big difference between what CarolA was talking about (clueless) and what some others have posted about (independence, choosing not to over-plan). We always know what we want to see, but we never ever have a daily itinerary planned in advance. Each night, we decide what we'll do the next day. Clueless, on the other hand, are people like my MIL and her companion, who on their one and only trip to Europe came back with "If they only used the US Dollar, everything would have been fine..." These are people who if they weren't led by a leash, would have spent the day sitting in their hotel lobby.

Maybe the point is burnish up your feelings of superiority over other people. Would some people even enjoy traveling or have stories to tell if it wasn't for us clueless?

I remember my in-laws once sitting on my back porch (when I had a back porch) on a very hot summer day and one of my neighbors came outside and began watering his lawn. My father in law turned to his wife and snorted: "Hah! Look at that!"

My mother in law looked, and started laughing and shaking her head, rolling her eyes.

Clueless me finally said: "What's so funny?"

They both turned and said, almost simultaenously:

"It's going to RAIN tonight!"

It was like those kids at the schoolyard: I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know.

I like to think all those clueless people you overhear in airports or on line at the Louvre are actually busy neurosurgeons, and you won't see them again until they show up in the operating room and introduce themselves.

Maybe they don't know where Nice is, but they know where a cortex is.

Yes, there is a LOT of pressure on the travel planner and yes, I tire of it.

One problem I have is on timing and me being the one having to hurry everyone along. Last month, we had three days in the Rhine/Mosel area. One kid really wanted to see Cologne cathedral and we all agreed that we wanted to see Marksburg castle on the way home. But after seeing the cathedral, climbing the tower and eating lunch, my husband wanted to "see more of Cologne" - but of course, magically wanted to still see Marksburg castle, too. We walked around for about an hour, finding our way into a church that was listed in no guidebook for good reason, then managed to drive to Marksburg castle in time to RUN to meet the last tour of the day.

Note to family: I can plan the trip and you can choose to deviate from my plans, but I cannot make attractions stay open later or make distances between attractions shorter.

IMO, the folks who are "clueless" will end up spending a lot more $ on things and wasting a lot more time; if they don't do any research ahead of time.

In these days, buying discounted train tickets ahead of time usually can save one a lot of $.

E.g.
London-Bath: advance ticket £9.50; vs £47 walk-up
Spain AVE: 40-60% off walk-up price if bought in advance
Thalys Paris-Brugge: €25 advance vs €85 walk-up

Just a few examples.

There are also a number of events and attractions that require advance reservations and are usually sold out on the day of (unless one wastes hours of previous travel time standing in line).

E.g.
The Alhambra
Uffizi Gallery
Concerts/Opera tickets for things like the Staatoper in Vienna, or Vienna Philharmonic, or Royal Opera in London
Last Supper in Milan

My feeling is, if I'm spending the $ and vacation time to fly to Europe, I'll at least want to make sure I'm getting the most out of it. How sad it'd be to visit Milan and can't get to see the Last Supper; or visit Granada and can't see the Alhambra???

Once in a while, i'd read trip reports here where the OP wrote something in the line of:

"We went to Museum so-and-so, but only to find that it's not open on ___day."

What a waste of vacation time, IMO.

"The French are rude and they don't like Americans even when you not only plan your trip, but learn their language! "

I just came back from Paris. I speak very little French. I didn't find the French rude, perhaps your attitude was part of the problem? If you wander around the world with "precevied" realities (i.e., "The French are rude") you generally find supporting evidence!

It appears my inital post was considered judgemental, I didn't mean it to be (i did mean the response above to be judgemenatal LOL!)

I am truly amazed that folks would spend literally THOUSANDS of dollars and not know where or why they were going someplace. It's just hard for me to fathom. (The woman in the example was checking into a a Marriott, the cheapest rate I found awas 159 Euros a night so it wouldn't take long for it to be THOUSANDS if you are paying cash) Sure I have missed lots of "Must Sees" in my day, but at least I knew they were there.

(I promise I once met a family in the Orlando airport who had spent a week at Disney and were truly amazed to learn that there was more then one park and that the reason they couldn't find the bus to Universal was that Disney didn't own it. They told me ALL about the "rip off" they had expereinced. Just reading the junke in thier hotel room would have helped. They just went downstairs every day and got on that bus to the Magic Kingdom and looked for things they had heard about but couldn't find... because they were in the wrong park?)

There's a great difference between traveling "without a clue" and having a ball, and traveling without a clue and being upset that you missed something, that you didn't know how to do something, that you didn't know the practicalities - and thus missed out on the trip you wanted.

If you're a free spirit, rely on serendipity, and roll happily with the punches, that's great - that's cluelessness with a purpose, living in the moment and loving it.

On the other hand, if you want the perfect trip to materialize on its own and are uncomfortable with anything that isn't to your expectations, that's being truly clueless. I feel sorry for this last group, because they often feel (perhaps rightly) that they have wasted a lot of their money on an unsatisfactory trip, when that was not necessary.

By the way, I am one of the eager planners, although I don't regiment my hours. I just have a rough agenda of things I'd like to have seen/done before I go home, and I don't want to miss anything I would regret through ignorance. I may still choose to bypass even major sights I'm less interested in. I've been in Rome several times but never to the Spanish Steps, which just doesn't sound like an interesting place to go to me. And I do like to know how to make my trip easier, so I'm always looking for helpful tips and information.

I really like the important point being made by several above... there's a lot of room on the spectrum between those with planned daily itineraries down to the hour and every restaurant, and not knowing distances to places you are intending to visit or the type of currency you'll need.

I don't see the big deal if you happen to know Notre Dame is on an island or not. So what? That's something you learned that day.

I agree with CarolA and have been amazed at some tourists who didn't have a clue about where they were or what was available. Two cases on point were the young woman who upon returning from Paris for a week stated there wasn't much to do or see in Paris. Seems she had gone along with her boyfriend who was on business and sat in her hotel in Montemarte the entire time--a tragedy in my opinion. The second was the obnoxious couple on the terrace of a nice hotel/bar in Murren demanding mint juleps with ice and maitais with specific rums with difficulty. They finally agreed that the "locals do try to try!"-but totally dominated the setting with loud discourse over the lack of amenities.

I am always left wondering how these folks ever got there in the first place and why basic curiosity didn't begin to prepare them. Oh well, their loss.

"There's a great difference between traveling "without a clue" and having a ball, and traveling without a clue and being upset that you missed something, that you didn't know how to do something, that you didn't know the practicalities - and thus missed out on the trip you wanted."

good point!

Long time ago, on my first trip to Spain, I was young and rather uninformed about the country.( it was before the internet, Fodor's forum, google ...)

I arrived in Madrid and was surprised how hot it was ( the second half of August ...hello!)
I was alone, did not speak any Spanish, felt a bit lost.

Decided to join a tour that took me to Toledo, Cordoba, Seville, Cadiz and Granada . Met some nice people on the bus . Had a
memorable time.

Author: eliza3
Date: 08/08/2008, 09:20 am
´I am going to (insert name of country) for 2 weeks. What should I do there?
Apparently having not given the matter any thought at all.
I always have a voice in my head asking ´why are you going there´!

Absolutely agree! =D>

I suppose there is a financial dimension to all this. If I had an unlimited budget, I would probably be "clueless". I would phone a travel agent and say "get me on a plane to Paris". Once there, I would say to the taxi driver "get me to a posh hotel". At the front desk of the hotel I would probably say "What should I see today?". and so on.
Regrettably, I do not have anything like that kind of money. To me an overseas holiday is a major expenditure. This means that I want to see as much as I can for my money. Therefore I microplan. When I leave home I know exactly what I am going to see and when. I cannot afford to waste money on mistakes so I research and plan months in advance. If I miss something it will be because I chose to miss it, not because I didn't know it was there.

In the end, as long as we all enjoy our holidays, it doesn't matter whether we are clueless or microplanners. The tragedy is spending al that time and money and not enjoying the holiday.

At the ripe age of 23, I and my 2 friends were on a bus in London with no idea of where to get off for our destination. Our query, "When do we get off, when do we get off?" was answered with a "When the bus stops, luv" by the unflappable driver!
A lot of people really don't have a clue and they don't mind.
As the cocktail napkin says, "We clueless live in a world of our own and know people there."

>>I suppose there is a financial dimension to all this. <<

I spend less now on travel than I used when I planned a lot. When I planned, I almost always booked 3 star hotels and places that had gotten lots of recomendations, and likewise with restaurants. The prettier the website, the more confidence it gave me to book -- but sometimes I was disappointed when I arrived.

It was a pretty middling, middle of the road experience and more expensive in comparison to what I do now.

Now when I travel, if I see a cheap hotel and it looks good, I take it. I generally follow my nose for eats, and look at the menu posted outside.

I think people who are defending planning, and claiming they see more than other people, or feel satisfied when they get home they didn't waste their money or miss "must-sees" are misinterpreting what other people are saying.

Nobody thinks you should change your desire to plan your whole trip, or research it -- although I honestly do think that all the popular advice is misleading about what's "worth" seeing (in London and Italy, especially).

Just can't figure out for the life of me why anybody would care if somebody who went to Amsterdam without knowing anything about it, or how far it was from Berlin.

To travel happily without a plan, you can't be the type who cares if you "missed something".

I love to wing it (but have traveled quite a bit and have many tricks up my sleeve) and would never lose sleep over missing a particular museum, monument, whatever.

I do put alot into finding out any local special events that may be on when I am somewhere, even to go so far as plan dates to I can participate in them.

Honestly, after reading and posting on this sight for a number of years, I notice a lot of "clueless" travelers-to-be. Posts such as "do I really need a visa to enter Russia?! ...OK, then can I just get one at the airport?", to "you mean Czechoslovakia (lol!!) isn't on the Euro? Why not?!"

Seems like a lot of people rely on other posters for information that they can/should be getting from a run of the mill guide book, or just under "destinations' on THIS website!!! Sometimes I really do wonder what their trips turn out like, if they are THAT unprepared.

However, I do not think it is a waste of time or money to take a trip somewhere, and just apprectiate and get to know the vibes of a new place, enjoy a few sights, and have a few traditional meals. Not rushing off to every historical sight, or every museum, etc, is not a crime. I was on a group tour, recently, and there were two types of people. One group got up at 5:30 AM, and were out by 7 with their cameras, backpacks & maps. I chose to hang with the group that got up just in time to catch the last muffin at breakfast, and left my room in time for the maid to clean it.

I enjoy shopping at local malls, grocery stores, etc, and I always attempt to blend in like a local. It's part of checking out/learning the culture. One camera toting hyper-tourist actually told me she didn't travel all that way just to go shopping. Well, to each his own. Sadly enough, her husband was mugged while carrying 2 cameras & a camcorder around his neck. ((p))

But I'm really just as amazed at those who ask for advice on their "London itinerary" and then go on to list a day by day plan of the 3-6 things (painstakingly grouped according to area, opening/closing times, etc.) they will do/see for the week.

Don't get me wrong - I spend lots of time doing research for our trips. But it is mostly with regards to transportation (so that I am well aware of how far I need to travel and in what direction each day) and definitely with hotels. We usually travel Europe in the summer with 4-6 people so I have found it less stressful to have my accomodations set. But for our daily experience I know that a wonderful city like London or Paris or Rome will have LOTS for me to do. So much, I won't see it all - even after a couple of trips. We actually do read our guide book on the way over and pick something to do for when we land. Then we take the guidebook to dinner and plan for the next day. We also talk to our hosts, fellow travelers at breakfast, etc. We've gotten some great tips of things to see that weren't in the guidebooks.

Our travel style is such that we plan to return - no dissapointments allowed. We really do hope to get to the top of the Eiffel Tower one of these days - missed it the first time due to snow, 2nd due to crowds - hope 3rd time will be the charm!

All people can be divided into 3 general categories:
1. Those who make things happen
2. Those who watch things happen- the vast majority]
3. Those who say "what in the hell happened?"

The last category are the ones that think Nice is a suburb of Paris and they are not neurosurgeons and not always blond.

LOL Bob