I also envy the ones that can just make it up as they go and feel fine about it. I also cringe at the over planners who have a 1001 back-up plans for each and every what if (and they usually have euro in their clinched fists when they get off the plane - you know who you are). I hoping to find the middle ground between the two some day

I'm a reader and researcher, so I was astounded to overhear these two remarks from tourists in Paris:

1. alighting from the tour bus behind Notre Dame: &quot;oh, look, it's on an <i>island</i>!&quot;

2. while on the metro, I heard someone say &quot;there's some church on a hill around here somewhere&quot;.
(I guess that guy wasn't totally clueless).

My worst imagined scenario is coming home from a trip, showing off my pictures and someone asking, &quot;Did you see...?&quot; referring to a place I had never heard of.

I study a lot before my trips. Not so I can see everything but so I can make an informed decision about what I want to see.

I want my answer to the above question to be, &quot;We chose instead to see...&quot; rather than, &quot;I didn't know that was there.&quot;

happytotrav - That is a perfect example. In Rome we were near a little restuarant/bar thing that I had heard great reviews of, but I couldn't figure out how to order or what to do so we never went in. A lot more cluelessness would have helped.

Here in central Arizona I interact a lot with tourists. A fellow who told me was from Stockholm, Sweden, asked me, &quot;Where is the mountain with the four presidents?&quot;

Taking a sheet of paper, I drew him a crude outline map of the U.S. I showed him he was in the lower left-hand corner area. He had asked about a place fairly central and near the top of the map.

He studied it a while. I could almost hear little wooden wheels turning in his brain.

Then he asked, &quot;Can I drive there this afternoon?&quot;

As Carl Sandburg said, &quot;There is only one thing dumber than a dumb Irishman, and that is a smart Swede.&quot; Or was he wrong? The world is filled with the clueless. If you doubt that, you have not been following the current political campaign.

I am a major planner and my husband is totally clueless. On occasion, he'll open a guide book on the plane, but sometimes he doesn't even do that. It's really rather embarrassing, because he'll talk to other people and THEY'LL tell him what there is to do in town, and then he'll tell ME that we should do this and that (for which, of course, I bought timed tickets 6 months in advance.) So, perhaps behind many clueless tourists there is a clued in travel partner!

Years ago we went on a church choir tour and on our day of arrival, we had a couple of free hours in Berlin. I had studied the area in advance and knew that there was a very special exhibition at a museum very near our hotel. We were sightseeing with two other couples and I couldn't convince anyone to go to the museum and we ended up wasting time, just wandering around. Of course, at dinner, lots of other folks in our group who just happened to wander in the direction of that museum reported on this very special exhibition that they had lucked into. Grrrr....

J62 described a SIL to a &quot;T&quot;. She and her fiance were planning their honeymoon to Paris. I did not want to interfere, but mentioned they should get their passports early (this was when the backlog was going on). She had no idea they needed passports. She knew we had been before and mentioned she would probably have questions for me. I told her that was fine. She never asked, and so I never spoke about it again to her as I figured she should enjoy planning her own trip and it was none of my business. Well, turns out the trip was one thing after another, and they came home saying the French are rude and don't like Americans. DH heard some of the details and just shook his head. So now FIL goes around saying the French are rude, based on what his DD told him. UGH!!!

&gt;&gt;I get the impression that many from N America think that 'Europe' is tiny and therefore easily covered in no time at all.&lt;&lt;

True, but touristing in Europe really is more compact than touristing America, with far better transport in many places. I have some sympathy for the clueless woman described in the original post as believing Nice was a short train trip from Paris. You know, Marseilles actually is, due to the fast train. A few years back, I went to three major European capitals plus London in the space of eight days, and I honestly didn't break a sweat. You couldn't travel to 4 major American cities in eight days without breaking the bank as well.

Where I live in Italy, it's possible for me to be in several other countries in the space of 8 hours. Shortly before my husband's latest birthday, I asked him if liked to celebrate it in Greece. We went for the weekend.

&gt;&gt;while on the metro, I heard someone say &quot;there's some church on a hill around here somewhere&quot;.&lt;&lt;

That might have been me! I finally went to Sacre Couer my last trip to Paris -- despite having lived in Paris for half a year a couple of decades before! It's a rather ugly pile, don't you think? But how many of you superplanners-out-of-guidebooks can say you saw St Denis?

&gt;&gt;they came home saying the French are rude and don't like Americans.&lt;&lt;

The French are rude and they don't like Americans even when you not only plan your trip, but learn their language! I thought about living in France again, until I realized I just couldn't stand it. France is wonderful, and sure once you understand the French you realize they don't mean to come off like that anymore than Americans do, and they can be as generous as anybody else -- and funny, too.

But they can be rude and display of lot irritability toward Americans to no fault of the American.

I have a friend who, when he decides to go, calls the airline and gets tickets to xxx.

Upon arrival, he gets the name of one or two luxury hotels and gets a room.

Should he decide to go to another city, he repeats above.

Occasionally he rents a car.

He has never had a less-than-excellent trip.

((I))

When I first started traveling I did not research before going and really had some of the best trips from being amazed at what I found. Now I don't travel that way. I research where I'm going. Very prepared. Although it is less stressful to be prepared it takes a little excitement away from the trip as well. I don't think its ignorance though. Probably just that they are inexperienced travelers and naive. As I once was.

Zeppole: I've been to both St. Denis and to Sacre Coeur. Of the two, I found St. Denis worth an entire day. Sacre Coeur, at sundown, is worth an hour at most, IMHO.

&quot;So, perhaps behind many clueless tourists there is a clued in travel partner!&quot;

That's true - and it describes my relationship with H perfectly. But I also get tired of the responsibility of always being the planner. Do you know what I mean?

I have also seen the St Denis statue in Montmartre where he stands holding his head in his hands...
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2006247320038432284

&gt;&gt;But I also get tired of the responsibility of always being the planner. Do you know what I mean?&lt;&lt;

My husband likes to eat very well when we travel and of course I do too but I got weary of collecting restaurant recommendations -- especially since we wander around so much during the day, we are seldom near anyplace I researched when we're finally starving. I'll point to anything with table and waiters when I'm hungry and beg to sit and eat anything, but he'll still want to figure out the best meal.

He now carts around the Michelin and I just turn to him and say: &quot;So, where are we having lunch?&quot; If I declare myself too footsore to walk another step, he gets a taxi. It's worth it.

Funny picture of St Denis! Could he possibly be saying:

&quot;Sacre couer!&quot;

-- ?

USNR,

Right. It's truly one of the greatest sights in Paris. I can't think of sight so important in another city that is so undertouristed.

&gt;&gt;But I also get tired of the responsibility of always being the planner. Do you know what I mean?&lt;&lt;

That one definitely rings a bell, and has caused friction in years past. I still do the bulk of the logistics planning, but have found it very worthwhile to engage the whole family in decision making.

This is true ahead of time (whole family has input on things/places/towns they'd like to see) &amp; lodging choices (looking at pictures on internet, reading reviews). It's also true when we're actually traveling. A choice of things to do tomorrow (and sometimes the input is nothing, we want to hang out by the pool and read), to dinner choices (online menus are helpful), to even little things like taking turns (incl kids) grocery shopping for breakfast/lunch.

In life, I am a planner. However, I have discovered something interesting. I plan MORe when I am going somewhere I have been before. It's like ok I know my way around, know what I have seen and want i still want to see. If it's somewhere brand new, it's like I dont' have the expectations so I can be open to spur of the moment impulses. It works for me. i love the planning and even with the new places, i have fun comparing sites and getting the best value on air and hotel. Going to Venice for second time in Dec (staying at Fodorite's beloved Locanda Orseolo - cant' wait!) and will just 'wander'. (But am planning day trips to Verona and Padua.

I cannot imagine making a daily itinerary , including the exact restaurants for lunch and dinner.

On the other hand , I would not wish to visit London , Paris or Rome without some basic knowledge of geography, transportation options,
etc..

I have friends who are &quot; clueless&quot;, but they travel with a group. Some ( with a lot of money) hire a private guide and rent a car with a driver.

There's a difference between wanting to be fancy free and not tied to a regimented schedule (even which days in which city and getting hotels on the spot) and not knowing where major cities are.

One is a philosophy of travel - less planning, ore freedom - but more risks.

The other, frankly, is clueless. Any adult (traveleing to France or not) who can't find Paris and Nice on a map - and have a relative idea of distance - IS clueless. (This is of the level of americans who think New Mexico isn't part of the US. There's just basic stuff that everyone should know - or not be running around loose.)

I even understand people who miss certain concepts. (We were getting coffee - hot mocha actually - and delicious - at a rest stop on the road from Salzburg to Vienna and a couple of other americans came over to us convinced they were lost. The road signs confused them since they didn't know Vienna is spelled Wien. But - at least they had the concept and direction right - it was just a fact that they were missing.)