How highly would you prioritize Portugal?
 

I am interested in Portugal for a number of cultural and historic and musical reasons. But I'm also drawn to go back to Italy (have been once) and explore Spain further (particularly to visit Andalucia, which I haven't done).

The answer is obviously a matter of personal taste, so I'm not expecting anyone to tell me the definitive solution. Nonetheless,if you had two weeks this year that you wanted to spend in this approximate region, how would you prioritize?

Since I've been to both Italy and Spain a number of times, Portugal is now at the top of my list, next year I hope. I can certainly understand your dilemma. I suggest you try a week in Spain, 1 location such as Seville with day trips, and a week in Lisbon doing the same. Difficulty arises when you try to cram too many stays into a short time frame but since Seville and Lisbon are relatively close together, I see no problem combining them.

Time of year would make a difference to me, not to mention exactly what it is that interests you when it comes to travel in Europe.

Only Rome had a longer lasting empire than Portugal, and Portugal's, in second place, was really a long-lived empire with exceptional global reach. It was over practically in a flash (or crash), rather than a long decline, but one of the most fascinating things about today's Portugal is how much it has maintained interesting cultural ties with those countries formerly in its imperial net, maybe even more so than the British empire, and in more creative ways. Its ties to the countries of its former empire are in some ways stronger than its ties to the European Union -- and yet it is obviously a European culture right to the core when you visit. A global European culture.

In music, Portugal goes totally its own way, and one of the great joys to me of visiting Portugal is that if you aren't hearing Portuguese music in a cafe or restaurant, you are usually treated to silence instead. There is no generic canned international music, and Portugal has already remained remarkably free of generic global fashion brand shopping (except in its most set-up-for-tourists streets, which are not that many) .

Another one of the contemporary joys of Portugal is that it has the best cuisine for the cheapest price (Italy had a great deal more of it in recent years, and while it hasn't lost the cuisine, it has gotten pricier in most places)! Wine is wonderfully tasty and inexpensive to boot. Port wine is marvelous (but many wines are).

Finally, Portugal has exceptional historic architecture but also a very pleasant contemporary architectural style. There are monstrosities, but there is also outstanding native talent. Great climate (some people claim the best in Europe).

Italy and Spain are infinitely interesting, but it is quite interesting to put Portugal in the mix. For a great many people, European travel really centers around France (in particular Paris) and Italy, plus London of course and then some dips here and there to other places. But I put Portugal and Greece very high on the list of understanding how European thinking has shaped so much of the world, and the really lovely thing about Portugal is that it absorbed so much of what flowed back in the other direction, to give a particular graceful aesthetic that is all its own and not dead or frozen in the past at all. It is not a theme park.

I like MmePerdu's idea. It all depends on how you can arrange flights and not backtrack and waste a lot of time.
Add or subtract days according to your interests. Possibly fly into Seville, stay 3/4 nts. Train to Granada, stopping in Cordoba on the way. Granada for at least 2 nts, bus to Malaga, 1 nt.
Fly to Lisbon from Malaga. Fly home from Lisbon.

It depends slightly on the time of year (i.e., weather; tourist hordes). Otherwise, Italy, Italy, Italy. Except for Andalucia at Semana Santa, Portugal in March, and/or when other places are inundated with tourist hordes.

I don't see how it is possible to see any of northern Portugal from a base in Lisbon. I think it is possible to combine some parts of Spain with some parts of Portugal, but Lisbon and Sevilla would for me be falling between 2 stools. But it really does depend on how you like to travel. There are a number of big time historical sights and museums in Andalucia that I think are fantastic, and trying to see them from one base would be impossible geographically, it would not leave any time to get off the beaten track in any meaningful way.

The other problem for me with day trips in Spain is that almost all of Spain, except tourist sights, closes up for hours and hours in the middle of the day. So just about the time you get someplace for a "day trip", people are starting to retreat from the public life of the place. They don't begin to reappear until the time the "day tripper" is ready to go back to their "base."

I highly recommend Porto if you are going Portugal as well as Lisbon, but if I were going to pair Lisbon with another European destination it would be Amsterdam, or possibly Vienna. Don't know if the flights favor it, but the startling contrasts and yet the similarities of these European capitals would be a lot of fun.

But you already apparently know everybody travels differently and my style and interests might be totally opposite of yours.

We were no overwhelmed by Portugal - fins as part of another trip - but not by itself.

If you have never been to Andalusia - IMHO by far the most interesting part of Spain due to it;s Moorish heritage - I would definitely head there - as long as it's not midsummer - when the weather is truly unbearable.

Also love Italy - but if y ou've already seen some of it - why not try the best of Spain now?

sandralist, Up until I read your posts on Portugal I've only had a passing interest. Now, I'm wondering why my bag isn't already packed. Thank you.

Visiting Italy once probably means you have been in the tiny triangle of Rome/Florence/Venice. Which is a bit like going to the States and only visited Boston/Cambridge etc. So lots to go at.

Portugal is relatively small but with some great ancient cities and language which is a little tricky and some wonderful countryside. Right now prices are low and of course you also have the amazing Azores and the interesting Madeira to try.

In terms or politics Portugal managed to get rid of their own dictator without outside help and are rightly proud of this and their ability to unelect a communist government while the history of the Royal family moving the throne to Brazil leaving a Governor in Europe has produced a very sensible people. What to do in the country, I have enjoyed bicycling across the country in Algarve and Alentejo, visited old cities, tasted Port in Porto and seen wine lists with 4 colours rather than the usual three.

Time of year is indeed a question; however I'll assume that you're cognizant of conditions in Portugal and/or Andalusia.

I think a visit to Andalusia is compatible with a brief visit to the Portuguese region of Alentejo, a large area of (mostly) rolling hills, cork and olive groves, lovely old cities like Evora, and grand vistas. It's perfect country for exploring hilltop villages and for seeing beautiful domestic/vernacular architecture. Except for a couple of cities (such as Evora) it's somewhat off the beaten path.

It's also fairly close to centers in Andalusia such as Seville, although, of course, with limited time you really won't be able to do either region the focus they're due.

We spent 5 nights in Lisbon, and we LOVED everything about it. Charming city with friendly people and very affordable prices. Easy to get around, and taxis are cheap. We took the train one day to Sintra and another day to Cascais.

I can highly recommend the Hotel Avenida Palace. So gorgeous and gracious.
http://www.hotelavenidapalace.pt/en/hotel-overview.html

We would love to return to Portugal and spend two weeks traveling north to south (or vice versa).

Spain is our number one destination over and over...( we have also visited the " major" cities in Italy ,France etc)
I had never been to Portugal until four nights in Lisbon this fall. ( after four days in Madrid).
The opinion on the board regarding Lisbon was rather divided. ....some found it disappointing,
others liked its uniqueness.
I filled three and a half days easily ....did not even have the time to go to Sintra .
The city was interesting, charming, VERY hilly, partly gentrified, had a sense of nostalgia and
mystery.
A number of posters don't like Madrid, some are not overwhelmed by Barcelona, but I am yet to hear from
those who did not like Andalusia. Its history, architecture and landscape are irresistible.
A week in Seville and Granda combined with a week in Lisbon and surrounding
area would be my suggestion.

LSky,

Have a great trip!


I really don't know what it means for someone to say they think Andalucia is the most interesting part of Spain because of its "Moorish" heritage but found not much of interest in Portugal. Did they not see the Alfama in Lisbon? The tile work all over Portugal? Hear anybody talk? What did they think they were looking at and did they not wonder at the origin of words like "Algarve" -- ?

Andalucia is quite interesting to be sure but when people say it is the "most interesting" part of Spain I can't help but wonder where else they've been in Spain. While I wouldn't go so far as to say I didn't like Andalucia, it certainly had the least interesting food of anyplace I've visited in Spain, and destinations like the Basque country and Galicia are fascinating, and the Pyrenees stunningly beautiful. Just like there is more to Italy than Rome, Florence and Venice, there is much, much more to Spain than Barcelona, Madrid and Andalucia.

I wanted to add one more charming aspect of Portugal. It really doesn't come across as a consumerist culture. Of course you will find ways to buy Portuguese craft, and many tourist spots have vendors selling things to tourists, and there is luxury for those who seek it. But it really quite refreshing to go to Portugal as a visitor and feel society is organized around a different premise and you've escaped the worst aspects of consumer society. Harder to do in Italy or France, or Barcelona or even San Sebastian (which is one reason that many tourists don't "get" Portugal).

With the short, relative cheap flights from Malaga or Seville to Lisbon, it is perfectly feasible to visit bits of both Spain and Portugal in two weeks. If you have the energy, and given that you are torn between the two, go for it. Anything you do will make a great trip.

Of course there is more to Italy than Rome and Venice, or more to Spain than Barcelona and SS,
but most posters don't have the privilege of living in Europe or time and funds to explore
all the lovely towns on a BIG continent.

sandralist, I understand what you mean about Portugal feeling less 'consumerist'. We felt so welcomed there, and that the residents truly appreciated having tourists come visit their home. It seemed a very gracious culture. Exemplified perfectly at the Hotel Avenida Palace.

Clearly Portugal was instrumental in the exploration of the world by Europe, but in no way, shape, or form has Portugal contributed to the world body of culture like the Italians, Spanish, French, Germans, English and Dutch among the European colonizers.

The food of Portugal is most enjoyable but unfortunately it is under appreciated and relatively unknown in the US. The people are kind but benignly morose. There are many wonderful and unusual towns through the nation and while Portuguese is a Romance language, it is difficult to speak well. And in Galicia, Spain where they speak Gallego, it is more Portuguese than Castilian.

It is worthwhile but it does not have the charm and diversity of Italy and Spain.

These are really great answers. Thanks everyone. I think I may try for a combo of southern Spain and Portugal, but I'll have to see how the exact timing shakes out.

Beautiful words, Sandralist. Thank you

Clearly IMDonehere can list some European countries by heart, but in no way, shape or form, he/she has any clue about what he/she is talking about.

I appreciate local patriotism, but would be interesting to hear in what way Portugal was more ( or equally) instrumental in contributing to the body of world culture than Spain, England or France.

Danon, portuguese were the 1st europeans arriving to India and the last to leave. The 1st in China and the last to leave. In the process some kind of footprint was left behind, at least the kick off in the concept of globalization. By some reason you say "arigato" to thank in Japan. I don't want to convert a travel forum in a geo/political/historical debate but IMDonehere statement was way too grotesque to be left unnoticed.
If we want to restrain the discussion to the field of new ideas, French revolution brought the ideals of human rights, liberty, equality and fraternity. The Italians had the Renaissance mouvement, mostly in arts. But if we keep in the field of new ideas, than the Ancient Greece is inbateable.

Unbeatable. And with this I rest my case wishing Willtravel a very pleasant travel whatever is the choice. Among Italy, Spain an Portugal, you can't choose unwisely.

Lobo

Please list the Portuguese artists, writers, and musicians/composers who have contributed to western culture, not just to the Portuguese culture?

I acknowledge the following is rude, but I do not prioritize countries, I visit them. When I see business jargon injected into travel discussions, it makes me think this is one more task that someone must accomplish. Each country has its charms and only that person can say what that appeal may be.

Please note, I have been to Portugal on numerous occasions, including Madeira, so I like Portugal and the Portuguese but question remains.

The fact that Portuguese were remarkable sailors end explorers does not make their
contribution to Western culture equal to those of England, France or Spain.

Will Travel, I had a similar dilemma. I am glad that I visited Portugal, even though for a short time.

Lisbon is a wonderful place. We also went Sintra on a day trip.
It's fabulous and deserves minimum 4 to 5 days if you are hard pressed on time of two weeks. We took an overnight train from Madrid and back, to save on time.

Lot of culture, architecture and the social weave that I liked the most. It is vibrant and laid back.
It is fabulous and you will regret not going there.
You never know if you can make it again to this part.

No Country is an Island unto itself.

For a small country Portugal has dome it's share.

Also during the WW II, the wealthy, the Kings, Princes and Politicians that required a safe haven....many fled to Portugal..... a country that was "neutral" but allowed the Allies to use their off shore Air Bases.

I think that is a contribution in humanity .

sandralist outlined everything very well.


http://theculturetrip.com/europe/por...to-find-them-/

When I read "the ways European thinking shaped the world" I thought Sandralist was referring to the encounters and disencounters of civilizations and answered accordingly.
If the discussion is about the countries where arts flourished, a few non cited countries pop to mind as Ireland (literature), Austria and Germany (music).
Both interpretations are possible, but I prefer mine since Greece (referring to a 3rd country to avoid local patriotisms) is the country which thinking modeled part of who we are and think and Greek language can hardly be heard on MTV nowadays (or in any other century).

When we visit a country my wife and I not only read about the sights but want to know about the history and culture past and present. We both want to be good guests, so we try and learn a few words in the language of that country. It often shocks people from other countries that Americans know a little about their culture and history.

But when you put in the effort learn about a country, you also learn balance. You try understand what is good and what is not so good about a country. And simply because you seek balance, others often think you are highlighting the bad.

Danon and IMDonehere, this was a pleasant discussion from my point of view. It's clear to me that we were talking about different things and now I understand your point. I appologize for any misplaced words.

Percy please note:

The humanitarian effort that you describe was under a pro- Fascist dictator named Salazar whose oppression lasted in the late 1960's. Royalty, real and fake, were allowed to stay in Portugal during WWII, because of certain contributions made to Salazar. I will spare you other details as his dealings with The Nazis.

While not as a bad as his neighbor Franco, it was the main reason Portugal did not become an EU member until 1986.
But what is interesting about Lisbon during WWII was that it was center for espionage during WWII due its "neutral" status.

Lobo

We truly like visiting Portugal and we find the Portuguese to be a warm and inviting people. Our last visit to Portugal was when we were in Galicia and a cousin drove the longest time just to have a meal in the middle of the woods about an hour over the Spanish border. Also, not too many Americans have been to Madeira, but we also enjoyed our stay there as well.

Hi DANON,

"...but would be interesting to hear in what way Portugal was more (or equally) instrumental in contributing to the body of world culture than Spain, England or France."

A few historical/geographical facts:

Topographically, Portugal, being bounded only by Spain and the Atlantic Ocean, was remote from much of the cultural interplay of European cultures over the centuries. On our trip we were told, therefore, that Portugal always "looked to the sea" for its expansion and commercial interests.

Lisbon, and much of Portugal, suffered a devastating earthquake on All Saints Day, November 1, 1755 from which, according to many observers, the country never fully recovered. The earthquake was followed by fire and a tsunami - then panic and desolation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake

IAMDONEHERE observes, "The people are kind but benignly morose." From my short stay there, somehow this description strikes a chord. Definitely worth a visit though..

"Morose" is not a word I would use. If I were to characterize the cultural atmosphere in Lisbon, I would use these words: lively, young (but not rowdy), safe, hip, friendly, outgoing, warm, hospitable, energetic, happy, affordable.



We especially loved the narrow, winding hilltop passages, with multiple tables set in the middle of huge cobblestone stairway landings, which became very active at night.

Saving this thread - great discussion, interesting thoughts and ideas.

lateday,
I am familiar with the geography and history of the country, the topic was the body of western
culture ( music, painting, architecture...) and Portugal's place in it.
In the end, it is something one can argue for a long time....
(And, there are Chinese, Egyptians, Persians, Indians ...their history , culture, inventions...)

For many travelers those issues are not very important - they mostly enjoy
the scenery, food, "people watching" and taking photos .

Although Ireland produced my favorite poet, the country itself was of no great interest to me.

Good point, danon. Lisbon is very photogenic!

ladydaytraveler:

you are right about Portugal's seemingly isolated location from the rest of Europe.

The 1755 earthquake so devastated Lisbon and many areas in Portugal, that you almost think of two eras of Portugal

one before the earthquake and one after the earthquake.

The district of Baixa in Lisbon was totally created after the earthquake, while the upper hill Alfama was relatively spared.

IMDonehere:
There are many reason why Portugal did not become an EU member until 1986.

They had many internal problems after Salazar died in 1970.

there was the Carnation Revolution.

they had their first free election in 50 years in 1976.


then the colonial wars in Africa were coming to an end.

all the colonies except Macao were granted their independence
and so ending many unwinnable wars and bringing the troops home.

this made the Portuguese people happy, what country is not happy when its troops come home!

after more than a decade of struggle they were accepted into the EU ,the membership was signed by Portugal's first civilian President in 60 years. (Mario Soares)

I like the fact that Portugal was not heavily influenced by Europe over the centuries because, Portugal has architecture that you will not see anywhere in Europe.

Percy
Basically what you describe is the residue of the dictatorship that prevented entry into the EU after the death of Salazar.

I stand by characteristic of the Portuguese people as morose, as I have seen it described elsewhere as melancholic.