That's what fado is all about, after all (being morose). to have an entire art form based on it says something.

Haven't been there but I can't understand prioritizing to some degree if you have limited time. I can't comment on this list as I haven't been to Portugal. But I don't agree that every place in Spain is dead in the middle of the day, no place I've been has been where one would bother to go. Of course tourists aren't interacting with people in their homes, anyway, but people do work nowadays in many cities. I was in Granada a few months ago, for example, and nothing was closed up in the middle of the day, and it was just the regular town, not stores or restaurants labelled "for tourists", whatever that means. It was not just tourist sites that were open. Same thing in Seville and Malaga in the south, or any city I've been in to the north. People live there and do things also, in the middle of the day.

Maybe if you are talking some small village wihtout any businesses, that could be true.

I've listened in on the discussion as I am winding up a Fodors travel report on Spain and Portugal in Depth. Unfortunately we didn't have enough time in Portugal so it isn't "in depth" also with both of us ailing by then.

Comments: noting sandralist and IMDonahere and others liking Portugal and also finding Andalucia most interesting as did danon. Yes, we were certainly intrigued by Andalucia and I do think the Moorish culture is an intriguing part of the history as nytravel says. Not been to Barcelona but have been to Madrid, Salamanca, Segovia, Toledo, etc.

latedaytraveler has mentioned the destructive earthquake of 1755 which has indeed had lingering effects. I have pondered that this occurred on All Saints Day in the middle of celebration of Mass! Sitting in the hushed silence of Lisbon's Church of Sao Domingos, once a center of the Inquisition, I looked at the unrepaired damaged columns caused by earthquake and fire.

So IMDonehere, what more can you say about the Salazar dictatorship? Any book or source to learn more? Not as bad as Franco you say? Definitely agree of the importance to study history and culture not just sights of any place.

Who can say whether Italy or Greece or for that matter Egypt or Israel has more intriguing history.

Danon, the topic is "how much European thinking shaped so much of the world". Sandralist ranked Portugal and Greece very high in this ranking. I can't understand how can this be disputed.
Of course you are free to have any other perception of reality, but I ask you to remember this discussion next time you see the façade of Sao Paulo church in Macao. The caravels didn't carry spices alone. For the best and for the worst they carried along religion, philosophy, ways of thinking, ways of living, culinary (vindaloo in India), language (arigato in Japonese). These flows are bidirectional and Portugal received back a lot as Sandralist also stated).
When Vasco da Gama arrived in India in 1498, this is the kick off of a globalization mouvement that lasts until today. Was it good or bad? I don't have an answer to that question, but history can not be rewriten.

Bill

I cannot recommend any book about Salazar or Franco but the dictatorship of Franco was much more oppressive and the Spanish Civil War still brings emotional debates in Spain.

Here is an article, for example, from earlier this year which speaks of Valle de los Caídos (Valley of the Fallen) in Spain and how the past and the present collide in Spain with regard to Franco, Spain, and their Civil War. The controversy also effects tourists, in that, it was built with what is essentially slave labor. Even Pedro Almodóvar's film Volver was an allegory for the Civil War.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/07/wo...past.html?_r=0

I am much more familiar with Spanish history and culture and I am still in weekly contact with friends and relatives. Over the course of my life, I have spent almost a year in Spain and none of that for business or school, my wife more.

IMDonehere:

If they are morose it is because they listen to Fado music.!!!

Wouldn't you be melancholy if you listened to only sad songs about longing for better times.

( I saw you wipibg tears away in a bar in Lisbon .!!) :)

I have no idea how much residue effect could be traced back to Salazar.
The country was trying to correct 50 years of
corruption.

But no country every gets rid of its corruption totally. That is why they call them politicians.!

"Clearly Portugal was instrumental in the exploration of the world by Europe, but in no way, shape, or form has Portugal contributed to the world body of culture like the Italians, Spanish, French, Germans, English and Dutch among the European colonizers. "

IMO , the above comment started the discussion, not "the ways European thinking shaped the world" .
Some may suggest Socrates, Galileo, Spinoza, Marx, Nietzsche, Napoleon, European Royals who
financed explorers like Columbus, Vasco da Gama, Cartier etc shaped
the "European thinking" . And, let's not forget the Moors, the Ottoman Empire and other " outside"
contributors .
Not long ago , Turkish President claimed that Muslims discovered America. Who knew.

Of course, every country has its horrible deeds and leaders. Some are later than others and some have a longer lasting effect.
____________
My favorite Portugal story about the Portuguese trait of being morose concerns visiting the absolutely beautiful town of Amarante for the feast day of St Gonçalo. The difference is that for hundreds of years on this feast day young single men and women exchange bread/cake in the shape of phalluses as an expression of interest. OK, not that subtle, but it is a very old tradition. These phalluses are being sold all over town and hanging from poles by street vendors and the people there are walking around like their dog died.

https://www.google.com/search?q=imag...w=1536&bih=686

We live in the world the Portugeuse set in motion It's the coffee you drink, the chocolate you eat, the systems of banking and transport combined with the fear of exotic diseases, of global financial collapse, the legacies of racism and resentment. The Portuguese clung to their physical empire longer than anybody, in utterly self-destructive ways, and yet they are also the first to recognize "life beyond empire" in a global world -- perhaps precisely because they were the makers of it -- and trying to come to democratic peace with it.

I think "prioritizing" countries rather than just "visiting" them is a fantastic way to travel if you view travel as an exploration of history and learning. There are many ways to learn history, and everybody should walk through the door that most interests them personally. But everybody should also question the traditional "ranking" of how to rate a country's importance according to yardsticks like who had the most famous "geniuses". That kind of measuring is faddish, and comes and goes. Quite frankly, engineers and gardeners have often been more influential than Shakespeare and Picasso in bringing western culture to non-western people and changing their lives. Ditto bankers and insurance innovators.

A lot of people have come to accept a tourist's map of where it is important to go that really bears no relationship to history or even anything worth learning, anything that will teach you about the world you live in today. There was a time when travel was so difficult just about the ONLY reason people undertook the rigors was to try to learn "why" the world is what it is today. Now people travel for the most idiotic reasons -- or probably just because they are bored and unhappy and television isn't much of an escape.

Portugal is where we have been and where many of today's empires are headed. It is interesting , it is open, it is cheap, it is fun, it is beautiful and it is easy to get to. If you think understanding the complications of history is a pre-requisite to having an opinion, then Portugal is a priority.

Danon, I understand your remarks under the light of your last post. My comments should be read framed by Sandralist's post of 6 December, 11:05 pm.

Is William Shakespeare or Michelangelo more important contributor to our culture, is it discovery of America or the French Revolution, the Roman Empire or Greek philosophers, chocolate or tulips ??
Disagreement of this nature are often a matter of opinion influenced by our own perception , background, education.

Unlike several posters , who responded to my inquiry about visiting Lisbon negatively, I really
enjoyed my short stay in the city. I managed to learn a bit of the language before my trip
( was easy..I speak Spanish) Hope to use it during my next time in Portugal.

Disagreements

DANON, you have engendered a very interesting discussion.

PERCY makes a good point - "I like the fact that Portugal was not heavily influenced by Europe over the centuries because, Portugal has architecture that you will not see anywhere in Europe."

An excellent example is the magnificent Jeronimos Monastery in the Belem section of Lisbon, designed in the "Manueline" style described as "a richly ornate architectural style with complex sculptural themes incorporating maritime elements and objects discovered during naval expeditions, carved in limestone."

What I recall especially is the striking nautical motifs throughout, particularly roping and intricate netting.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jer%C3%B3nimos_Monastery


IDH, interesting piece about Spain's days under Franco. Around 2000 I visited the Valley of the Fallen on a cool, dark day and recall it as a rather forbidding place. For more on this subject, I would suggest reading GHOSTS OF SPAIN, Travels Through Spain and Its Silent Past by Giles Tremlett.

Sandralist, I did not realize the Portuguese invented racism. Then I truly underestimated their legacy.

And speaking of racism, chocolate was discovered over 3,000 years before the Europeans set foot in the Americas and chocolate is bastardized Spanish word from the Aztecs meaning bitter water. But why give credit to the indigenous people of the western hemisphere, when it wrongfully supports your narrative.

As far as contributions to society, I missed the Nobel and Pulitzer prizes for banking and insurance. And how many times did writers and artists plunge the world into a depression because of greed?

So the legacy you are touting is racism, greed, and the theft of other people's work and inventions. Please do nor plead my case if I death row they might torture me before they hang me.

lateday,
I think it was IMD who started the conversation , but I agree with you about Jeronimos.
...I was alone and loudly said "wow" several times.
There is so much magnificent art and architecture in Europe ( and other places) , I feel lucky to have seen even a small part of it.

For those that have seen the Queluz Palace in Portugal, I thought it was pretty "sneaky" in the fashion it was built.

The square facing the public traffic and the outside of the Palace is moderately done, but what the general public at the time could not or never did see was the lavish ...

..other side of the Palace and the ornate gardens.!

https://www.google.ca/search?q=quelu...ce%3B800%3B529

This was a hunting Lodge once , just like Versailles.

( At least Versailles is about the same on both sides, not so for the Queluz Palace... the best is on the other side beyond the gates.)

Yes latedaytraveler,

"An excellent example is the magnificent Jeronimos Monastery in the Belem section of Lisbon, designed in the "Manueline" style described as "a richly ornate architectural style with complex sculptural themes incorporating maritime elements and objects discovered during naval expeditions, carved in limestone."
----------

and the Belem Tower also has much Manueline embellishments.

I think Portugal Palaces and Monasteries have the best Cloister Courtyards bar-none.

PERCY,

Thanks for the link to the Queluz Palace in Portugal. Is it in Lisbon? Spectacular, so much like Versailles. Sorry that I missed it.

As a former <i>estrangeira</i> who considers herself more and more <i>alfacinha</i> as each day passes, I'm always interested in hearing how my adoptive country is perceived, and I'm finding this discussion very interesting.

Śandralist has been on PalQ's Dulux again.

Anything else Portugal invented?

There are 3 European countries I haven't visited :

Finland : poor man's Sweden.
Serbia : nasty lot into genocide.
Portugal : lovely people but why would you with Seville down the road.

Dickie,
As I mentioned , Spain is our favourite destination.
We visited Seville twice ( five nights each time) ..first , during La Semana Santa ( was too crowded, )the second time -with side trips to a Cordoba and Italica - we enjoyed the stay much more.
I would go to Seville again without hesitation.

This fall, I finally visited a new destination : Lisbon! Same posters recommended it highly, some did not
like the city at all.
I found Lisbon interesting enough to fill three days and left with desire to see more of the country.

Dickie, Finland, very different to Sweden, very solid people, far more educated with a stubborn streak a mile wide and a genuine warmth for all visitors. Especially nice up to and above the Artic circle

Seville is good but many towns in Portugal are as interesting with better wild life and a calmer people.

Serbia; tick

Spices were not unknown in Europe before 15th century but pepper was more expensive than gold and only a few persons (royals and such) have ever tasted that. The once famous Silk road ended in Venice after a very long chain of value from China to Europe.
Places like China (Marco Polo) and India were visited by merchants and adventurers from time to time. Alexander the Great and the Romans went deep into the Asian continent. None in the above was invented or discovered by the Portuguese, since it was common knowledge of educated people in Europe long before Portugal ever existed. Portugal only took advantage from being the 1st nation able to trade in a global basis.
However when Vasco da Gama rounded the southern tip of Africa and arrived in Lisbon in the year of 1499 with 3 ships loaded with spices, it marked the beginning of the turn to 16th century revolution since for the 1st time common people was able to purchase goods that previously existed only in small amounts.
During 50 years Lisbon was the busiest city in Europe with merchants for all over doing their trades. Jeronimos monastery and Belem Tower are contemporary of these events.
In the middle of 16th century Portugal did it's Crassus (fatal) mistake which is the introduction of Inquisition. The thinking tank left the country, taking large amounts of money with them to more favorable places like Amsterdam. The above referred Baruch Espinoza is Dutch born, son of parents from Vidigueira, Alentejo. With Espinoza parents, many doctors, scientists and crafstmen of all kinds left the country. This influx made Holland the next global sea based empire.
After that, Britain ruled the waves to built the 3rd sea based empire. The world had to wait to the end of WWII to see the raise of another empire of global reach similar to those three referred previously.
Spain focused very much in the Americas (Inca Empire) and no other European countries had contributions to the expansion of European power and ways of thinking of similar extent as Portuguese, Dutch and Brits.
The Dutch had to fight in several parts of the world since the Portuguese arrived 1st and took the advantageous points. After a non-successful war with the Portuguese in Brazilian North-East, Dutch climbed in the map and founded New Amsterdam (aka New York City).
In the process where civilizations were for the 1st time put face to face (and not individuals like previously) some challenges were brought to evidence, some of which remain in our times.
Feel free to criticize at will, but this is my vision and the way I read Sandralists (2nd or 3rd in the list) post which, in my opinion, started the thread.

latedaytraveler:
Yes Queluz Palace is about 8 miles from Lisbon.
This is where Maria I was as she descended into madness.
Her eldest son finally had to take her to Brazil where she died.

She is also the same Maria who despised Pombal, the Marquis of Pombal was the fellow who single handed planned the rebuilding of Lisbon after the quake

In disgrace he moved to the town of Pombal, a town named after him and is just before Coimbra.
-----

I liked Helsinki,I thought the place and the people were great.

I am glad I went to Serbia, Bulgaria and Croatia.

I got to see and hear about both sides of the conflict.
I had a terrific tour guide who gave history lectures at the University in Washington DC.



-----

Most Dutch would have an issue with the idea that exiled Portuguese Jews " made Holland the next
global sea based empire"

"The Dutch navy has a long history. It was involved in many wars against other European powers since the late 16th century, initially for independence against Spain in European waters, later for shipping lanes, trade and colonies in many parts of the world, notably in four Anglo-Dutch wars against England"


One hopes that we can agree that Rembrandt and Vermeer were actually Dutch.

It's surprising that so many put down Portugal based on it's ancient history.

I guess that leaves it less-crowded for those of us who love it.

One of the problems with the Internet and travel boards, is that people are overly sensitive and immediately think that any negative fact or datum is a complete condemnation of a subject.

It is called balance. Is called being knowledgeable.

I did not read one person state that they would not visit or re-visit Portugal because of its past. But since little is known about Portugal in the US and its tourism is dwarfed by Spain, Italy, France, UK, and The Netherlands, any thing that borders on criticism, even when accurate, is considered a fatal blow.

Oh, brother.

"It's surprising that so many put down Portugal based on it's ancient history".

Not true , just discussing different interpretations of its history and Portugal's contribution to the
European culture.

Each time one says something less than positive about a village, town, city, country etc, it is almost certain one of the " offended" poster will say:

"I guess that leaves it less-crowded for those of us who love it."

Oh, brother.

IMHO, worth to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery

No one is denying the contribution of the Portuguese as explorers.

The OP's question is:
"If you had two weeks this year that you wanted to spend in this approximate region, how would you prioritize?"

And that relates to its explorers how?

It is part of the Portuguese culture. And that gets to why each individual travels. Some are interested in the history, others in interested in a beach and golf.

But its history doesn't determine whether or not it should be prioritized. Unless it's recent extremism.

That is just not true Taber. When you visit a country it is culmination of all that preceded it. Some have visible monuments, others have a language, national characteristics, cuisine, culture, traditions, and customs.

When you visit a country what do you look for?

True. I love the difference in cultures and geography. That's why we travel, anyway.

I'm referring to the OP's question, in saying that a region's history doesn't necessarily dissuade me from visiting. It colors the experience, but doesn't really determine how we prioritize a place.

Except in the case of wanting to visit specific war sites, but that's not the OP's question.

The whole gestalt of a place will make me want to visit it, so as the original poster, I am quite happy for those philosophical and historical discussions.

It is important to understand the driving forces behind a country when visiting it.

Imagine USA, home of torture, Ferguson and G Bush. Who would of thought of visiting such a country.

Don't shoot I surrender. :-)

This was a nice discussion.
When reading I saw a sentence that I felt meaningless (I still do, maybe I'm wrong but it´s my opinion) and tried to give different points of view.
Fodors' readers are intelligent persons able to read different visions of the same subject and extract their own conclusions.

There is an interesting example in Spain, The Valley of The Fallen (Valle de los Caídos)where knowing its history may make a difference to a tourist. There is much controversy surrounding this monument including the use of slave labor, who and how people are buried there, and the entombment of Franco himself. Some might not care, others may not want to visit such a place, thus the information could be important.

"Imagine USA, home of torture, Ferguson and G Bush. Who would of thought of visiting such a country."

If one was choosing a destination based on the historical sins, how many travellers would visit Germany and other European countries whose population joined Hitler''s willing executioners?
China, Russia, Cambodia , Japan, Chile, Argentina.....??? Take your pick.

For some, travel is about beaches , food , relaxation . For others, it is about art, history , architecture..
I suspect it is a bit of both for the.majority