Amy,

I don't know a thing about boating, but I know a lot about traveling with friends.

We are five couples, and have taken at least one trip to Europe together for the last eight years.

Common problems and how we avoid them:

The "joined at the hip syndrome"
We aren't, since we don't do everything together, except for things that are especially planned, such as a day in Paris with Michael Osman, a day trip to Orvieto from Rome, a trip to Siena from Florence.

Other than those things, we're on our own.

The dreaded "how do we pay for restaurant meals" question:

We usually have picked a restaurant (or two or three) for dinner, and eat more or less together at night.

One person pays for the meal. When we get home, we split the cost evenly among the couples, no matter what you ordered. Everybody knows this, and agrees that the convenience of this method is worth the slight inequity in cost.

On our last trip (Amsterdam and Bruges in October), we took this a little
further, and one person paid for all the meals we ate together. When we got home, we divided the cost as usual.

Early birds or sleepers-in:

We almost always have a good breakfast included in our room rate, and almost everybody shows up the mornings. If someone sleeps in, it's fine. It's everybody's vacation, after all.

We just try to

Yikes! I don't know what happened.

But to continue:

We are good friends and enjoy having fun together. None of our group is a bit shy about speaking up if a problem comes up, and we work it out.

My last advice:

Keep your sense of humor and you'll (probably) all still be friends when you get home.

Byrd

Byrd, That's a good system. The person who gets out their CC first gets the miles!

Sea Urchin, you have expressed one of my concerns regarding restaurants. We may have different budgets, different ideas of what is "expensive" and different interests in food, both quantity and quality. I just don't know for sure yet. I think we need to talk about it beforehand.

As for restaurant tabs, I am thinking that someone might keep a little tally at the table. Not to the penny, but so that we have a general sense of where each couple stands. We so often order a fixed price menu rather than a la carte, I think this could be a simple solution.

As far as locking ourselves together for a trial run, we all live many thousands of miles apart so this is not feasible. And to answers someone else's question, we are taking this trip to be together and France just happens to be a half-way point of sorts. Yes, I love France, but hope to spend the rest of my life traveling there. This trip is not about being in France for me. (Okay, that's a lie! The reunion is most important. But I am thrilled we'll be in France!)

Nukesafe, I have been looking at ViaMichelin for restaurant suggestions. We will be on the Saone (between Chalon and Tournus) so I worry about your experience and how closures may impact us in October. Many places seem to be open, albeit with limited hours. Do you think I can trust ViaM? Were these restaurants which you found closed in the towns or smaller, canal-side establishments? We'll be sure to lay in a supply of canned food for emergencies! ;-)

Part of the reason we chose this particular company and model of boat (Locaboat's 1500FB) was that there are four separate and equal cabins, each with it's own head. Having lived on a sailboat for two years, I know about the head problems. We'll have options, and hopefully enough good will to share if and when we need to! I assume it goes without saying that each couple must store their luggage, etc. in their own cabin.

My latest thinking is that we should delegate specific functions as follows: provisioning, cooking, clean-up, captaining, co-captaining, deck hands. There seems to be a somewhat clear division of labor and interests among us, at least to me. I am also wondering if we will get into an easier routine if everyone has a job that they keep for the week.

I assume there will be crossover and that people will pitch in on other jobs as the mood strikes. For instance, the cook should not be charged with cooking every meal eaten aboard. And a deck hand can come and help shop and carry groceries back to the boat. No one should be dragged from a nap or a good book to assist with locking. And all concerned should clean up after themselves.

Any thoughts on this?

Hi Amy,

>Not everyone likes to shop and/or cook.<

Since two of you do, I suggest that you two do the provisioning and be the cooks.

Remember:

The cook does not do the dishes.

The cook doesn't stand watch.

((I))
Former sailor

I don't understand your idea about somebody having to keep a tally at a restaurant as to what everybody ordered. I would be annoyed and insulted if I ever went out to dinner with someone who did that to me, as it is basically telling someone you think they are cheap and trying to cheat others and/or too stupid to add up their own bill. I think it's very pushy and overbearing and sets a real bad tone.

However, if you travel in a group who all think that is a great idea because they have terrible memories or whatever, then it might work for your group. I just think any reasonable adult couple knows perfectly well what they ordered and it perfectly capable of keeping an estimate in their own head, or you just pass around the bill when it comes so someone can glance at it to remind themself.

Actually, what is the point of someone keeping tabs on people since the bill will itemize the cost of each dish anyway, it's not like you won't get a bill showing you.

>captaining, co-captaining,...<

A boat can have only 1 captain, even if barging on a canal.

Somebody has to have the authority to make decisions.

If your captain screws up, make him/her walk the plank..

Choose your most experienced member. First mate will be the next most experienced.

Remember, the First Mate has to make sure that the bitter end of the anchor rode is attached to the boat. :)

((I))

Ira,

There is nothing wrong with having more than one skipper, as long as everyone knows who to listen to at critical moments. On our last trip, the other male was as experienced in boats as I was, so we took turns. Capitain Bligh types just have to learn when to keep their traps shut when off duty.

Amy40,

I looked up your Locaboat 1500. That is a HUGE vessel! Be advised that winds can be strong in the Saone Valley in the fall, and the combination of high freeboard, shallow draft, and gusty winds can make entering locks at slow speed troublesome. Your bow thruster should make all the difference though. I would not take a larger boat on the canals without one. We had a Tarpon 37 (11 meters) for the four of us for our last trip.

I think you will not have the trouble with restaurants that we did, because you will be on the lower Saone. We made the mistake of going North from Pontailler-sur-Saone, and that stretch is really rural. Restaurants are sparce up there even during the season. Many bigger towns where you will be.

We did have onememorable meal on the trip, at the town of Gray, in a hotel right at the end of the bridge. I'll copy an exerpt from my trip report:

"By that time the laundry was finally (almost) dry. It was 18:30 by the time we got back to the boat.
Dick and Nancy decided they did not feel like dinner out and elected to stay on the boat. I took
my cell phone and Tammy and I were waiting, famished, by the door of the restaurant when it,
indeed, opened at 7:15. I called Dick on the boat and told him, and urged them to join us.

I went into all this detail because the restaurant served us one of the best meals either of us has
ever eaten! The decor was elegant; fresh flowers or original art ceramics on widely separated
tables. The table setting was striking; a huge turquoise charger at each place setting. The service
was attentive. The menu looked moderately priced, with a choice of an €18, €23, €28, or 36
€menu. We chose the €23 menu which started with an amusee bouche that was a chilled
cucumber concoction, decorated with fresh herbs. That was followed by a salad that could have
been the main dish, full of marinated sea food such as mussels, fresh shrimp, and unusual cone-
shell snails. Tammy had lovely thick steak with Bearnaise sauce, while I had locally caught perch.
The cheese course gave us a choice from a cart just stacked with delectable choices. I tried three;
my favorite being a local Epoisses, all yellow and runny. We ordered deserts, but just before they
came the waiter placed a small dish on the table that contained an even dozen small pastries and
macaroons. We blinked, because this was obviously not the desert, but a little extra. Our deserts
were sumptuous, Tammy with a large Creme Brulee, and mine kind of tarte served on a huge
white rectangular dish, the tarte in a depression on one end, and the rest of the dish artistically
decorated with swirled caramel. All followed by coffee. I would have loved a cognac, but had no
more room. We also had a half liter of the house red, which was quite drinkable.

The grand total for this meal that showed up on my Visa when I got home was $62.64. Hell, we
have spent that much in Pizza Hut."

Please let us know how the trip went after you return.

:-)

Whoops, forgot to mention the name of the restaurant in Grey. From my trip report:

"If you are ever in Gray, France, We can heartily recommend the Restaurant Au Mastroquet in the
Hotel Bellevue, 1 Avenue Carnot, just at the Eastern end of the bridge in Grey."

:-)

Ira, I'm glad to hear that since I will likely be one of those cooks, I won't have to stand watch! Being at the helm on overnight passages was never one of my favorite turns of duty.

Regarding the experience of the sailors involved, we lived aboard and cruised for two years so wither my husband or I would make decent captains. The "official captain of record" is a very experienced weekend sailor with many bareboat charters under his belt. I suppose First Mate would have been a better term to use. It will likely be my husband.

Christina, the idea of a tally is so that one person can cover the entire bill, as others have suggested, and we can settle up later, either at the end of the day or the end of the trip. This is not about suspicions or cheating -- nothing so ugly. Just about handling the business smoothly at the end of the meal.

Nukesafe, "high freeboard, low draft and gusty winds" sounds just like my life aboard a 42' catamaran. Maybe my husband should be captain. Well, come to think of it, that's why we now live on land! I appreciate the heads up. The Other Captain sails in SF Bay and on the Pacific. This man knows wind! Bless the bow thrusters.

Sadly we will not be near Gray. Our landside experience will be west of Dijon, near Montbard, I believe. But the description of your meal was quite wonderful. One need not pay a ransom for fabulous, memorable meals in France. What we give up in scenery in the lower Saone will hopefully be compensated for in good restaurants that are OPEN!

I'm getting a bit lost here. I thought it was a barge trip - up a river or canal, not sailing.

Frankly, any idiot can 'captain' these things (I should know, I've done it twice ;-)) so previous sailing experience does not necessarily mean you'll be any better at it than anyone else. They hire them out to absolutely anyone and give you a short 'driving' lesson.

If everyone's happy with the two sailor men captaining and deck-handing and doing all the fun stuff with the boat, then fine, but it's starting to sound like all the boys get to play and the women get stuck in the cabin cooking. Perhaps its just the way its coming across here - but I don't think I'd fancy coming on this trip as I've been on other things the men have just taken over completely and not enjoyed it at all.

First, Amy..you need to clearly set limits <b>for yourself</b> in terms of that &quot;responsibility&quot; you've decided to take to make sure you've got as much right as possible beforehand.

Are you making these arrangements arbitrarily or has there already been input on any of this from the others...that would be important to know IMO.

I personally find it very offensive when I read about how women somehow have these special &quot;bonding&quot; or any other &quot;needs&quot; that have to happen &quot;or there will be trouble.&quot;

Are these people adults? If they are, then they should be expected to take on a certain amount of responsibility (read that as <b>remain flexible and sensitive to everyone else's needs</b>) to make this thing a success.

If people want to sleep in in the morning...let them do so. If that puts a damper on anyone else's activity that's not your problem to shoulder.

When people find out that what they do and do not decide to do isn't going to be the center of everyone else's universe they'll soon get into the swing of things and everyone will be quite &quot;happy.&quot;

Nona, references to sailing are only because a few of us are sailors here. Boats are boats. Each has it's own personality and handling style, largely due to things like freeboard, draft, propwalk, etc. One can not know what to expect of a new vessel, only what to look out for. Usually I look out for the other boaters!

As for division of labor, each member of the party of eight will need to decide what he or she is inclined to do, if that's the way the division of labor goes down. It might not even play out that way. One possible arrangement (which made some sense to me) had the inside/outside duties split down the middle, gender-wise.

Dukey, you are right about limiting my responsibility. I wondered if I was making too big a deal out of this idea of advance planning and discussion, figuring out restaurants and responsibilities, etc. That maybe we should be more relaxed and play it by ear once we get there, despite my natural inclination. So I thought I'd send it up before you guys...my experts...for a reality check! Pretty much everyone supports the advance communication, so I feel reassured that its the right way to go.

As for woman trouble, I'm not totally sure what is meant by that. When I think about the four of us (women!) I can't imagine anything unpleasant going on. We are all adult (the women and even the men!), come to think of it. We also really like each other an awful lot. So, no worries there.

I think it is going to be a successful trip. If I didn't, I sure wouldn't be investing my money, time and flyer miles. I appreciate all the good &quot;thinking points&quot; posted here. We will certainly benefit from your collective wisdom and experience.

Well of course, I'm sure you'll all work it out just fine. Relax, it's not all your responsibility. Play it by ear. Agree in advance things like budget and so on, and then see.

But if someone so much as suggested this about a trip I was going on 'One possible arrangement (which made some sense to me) had the inside/outside duties split down the middle, gender-wise'. I'd be extremely pissed off with them to understate it. Gee, I get to stay indoors doing housework and shopping while the big strong clever men get to play with the boat? I couldn't see any of my female friends going with that either...so unless you know the women very well perhaps best not to suggest this. It would offend me. Perhaps it will offend them.

There need to be little concern about who's the captain and who has handled a boat before. Among our 12, only one had any experience and we had two boats. On the first day we tended to weave across the canal like drunks, but quickly got used to the steering. Canal boats don't go faster than 5 to 7 km. per hour anyway.

I wrote about the women bonding because it seemed to me that the men were all friends and bringing along their second wives to be there while the men get together for fun.

I wouldn't want to be stuck on a barge with some women I didn't especially like or care for just because our husbands were old friends. Or be expected to enjoy kitchen chores with someone's second wife because we are the same sex.

Now I know these women all know and like each other so there is no problem with that.

Thanks Michael, my point exactly. Any old moron can drive one of these. No previous experience required. The only reason the hiring co. ask for a named person is so they can just teach one person everything instead of trying to do a lesson for 10 people all at the same time. But really, it's a five minute explanation and then off you can go..so anyone can do it after that.

No no nona, as for the division of labor, I am still not making myself clear, I see. At least one of the men is a great cook. And at least one woman is a great and experienced boater. When I say &quot;down the middle&quot; I mean that I could easily see half the men inside and half the women outside.

Or maybe we'll all multi-task!

Sea Urchin, your clarification made me laugh. I had the opportunity to &quot;bond&quot; with my husband's ex-wife while washing dishes at numerous family reunions, to which she was still welcome! I absolutely get what you're talking about. I think the four of us are happily beyond that stage!

Michael, the image of two barges careening down the canals amuses me. Of course, there will be a learning curve. Fortunately, we'll be in the Canal du Centre before casting out into the wide open Saone.

Oh, I am so looking forward to this trip!! :-)

Have you thought about renting cell phones for when you're off the boat? I'm not sure how expensive it is but if it fits in your budget it might save you from the situation where one couple drops what they're doing (and enjoying) to meet at the scheduled place and time for dinner while the other couple stumbles on an adventure that leads them to decide not to stick to the original dinner plans. I know we're all trying to get AWAY from cell phones on vacations but phones rented strictly for this purpose could really help. Maybe one part of the group discovers something that the rest of the group might want to join!

LOL, Amy40, can you tell I was speaking from experience too?!

Have a great trip and make sure you report to us!