How can four couples travel together happily?
 

Another thread touched on this issue, and rather than hijack it, I thought I'd throw this out for your suggestions. (nytraveler, your response on the other thread has already been added to my file!)

We are four couples. Guys friends since the old days. Women are later additions...second wives for all, in fact. Big birthday coming up. So, some of us will be in Paris for a few nights before heading to Burgundy for a week long barge cruise (bareboat). Then, a few of us will visit a friend with a home in Burgundy.

I know we will avoid a lot of the slow-in-the-morning issues by being on a boat. But I am wondering if you sage advisers have any further thoughts for us. I instigated this trip and feel somewhat responsible to get as much right as possible beforehand. Once the trip begins, my job will be to just let go when whatever hits the fan!

My suggestion is to take an organized tour once the boat phase of the tour is over.
That way, the tour company is the organizer and no one of the 8 of you is responsible for where to go and where to stay. It might be more expensive that way, but you might keep down the ill feelings.

Another suggestion is simply find a common hotel in a major city such as Paris, and agree to meet every morning for breakfast where each person states his or her objectives for the day. Those who want to form into spontaneous groups may do so.

Those who want to go off on their own have that option.

Plan, plan, plan and then plan some more. I organized a trip of 10 women who traveled to Italy in 2005. We met many times prior to the trip to anticipate as much as we could. We discussed money issues the most: How to handle paying the tab when we all went out to eat together, how to buy groceries (we established a "kitty"), etc. We formed loosely organized committees to deal with details such as transportation, site visits, etc.

It helped that we all knew each other very well. We traveled around as a group mostly, but formed smaller groups and went our ways individually at times, always gathering for dinner together. Assume there will be differences of opinion, try to figure out where they lie, and deal with as much as you can beforehand. When is your trip?

Having done this for many years we have a solution. We almost always have dinner together and if that is not possible then late night drinks during which time we discuss what suggestions we have for the next day.

Those of us who want to do something like a tour, shopping, etc meet at breakfast. If people sleep in or choose not to join in then that is fine. We have one couple who are notoriously late. After the third year we decided not to wait for them any more and that was fine with them.

Too much forced togetherness can be stressful, especially of one couple wants to sit in a lounge and drink and another wants to go to a museum. Respect each other's differences. We have found that we spend almost all of our time with one couple who has similar interests to us.

Hope this helps

Have everybody list five top things they want to do in Paris. Then plan your days around them.

You need to be upfront with each other whether you will spend each day joined at the hip or everyone is free to go their own way.

That includes breakfast, lunch, and dinner as well. Some people want to get up and out early and explore and others arrive later for a leisurely breakfast.

That can lead to a lot of tension 1st thing in the morning.

I personally dislike it when everyone gets together at 7pm and says J, where are we going for dinner? Definitely take turns being responsible for planning details like that.

You may want to have several cars avail for end part of the trip, so every couple has some freedom to explore on their own. Travelling with a loved one can be very romantic. Waiting for other couples or constantly being around them for several days or longer can spoil the moment in a hurry.

For the barge cruise part be sure to have at least 4 bicycles on board. Set up a schedule so that each day 1-2 couples stay on the boat to operate locks etc and the others can take off to see the countryside with an arranged meeting point for the next overnight stop. Have each couple contribute some amount to a "boat kitty" that is used to pay all boat expenses such as fuel, water, groceries, marina fees etc. Replenish it as needed. On shore everyone is on their own. If you don't have shore hookup to water be sure you have an understanding about how it is used. Anyone with "special" dietary needs should be on their own to deal with them, i.e., buying and cooking foods different from what the others would otherwise be eating.

A few years ago I planned a trip to London and the Cotswolds for thirteen friends (some couples, some singles). I was in a sort of different situation since I travel to the UK a lot and they all asked me to make the arrangements (whereas w/ a group of 4 couples you would probably share some of the planning)

But a few of the things to consider to help make it work:

Don't EVEN try to do everything together.

A big issue when there are a lot of fixed plans is that everyone will be on different "body clocks". Some are early risers, some can't face the world w/o full make up and 2 cups of coffee. Some eat fast some dawdle. So just don't try to regiment too much/over plan.

Money - decide ahead of time how you want to treat group meals. Separate checks isn't always an option. So decide if meals will just be divided equally, or calculated per couple.

If you rent cars for part of the trip:

Driving - decide ahead of time who the drivers/navigators will be. Or at least who is willing to do it. And -- not everyone knows how to read a map! :)

It is easier to rent 2 or 3 smaller cars than one massive one. Not only will it be cheaper, the spare vehicles allow folks to break up in to 2's, 3's, 4's when some want to do one thing and others want to to do something else, or just veg out.

We did it for 12, using two boats. It worked well because we all had different plans before and after the barge cruise, so we did not feel as though we were taking a trip that forced us to be together all the time.

Hi Amy,

Have the 8 of you ever been together for a week?

If not, I suggest that you do so before getting on a boat.

Boating is all about being in each other's pockets 24/7.

((I))

Go your own way by day and arrange to meet up for dinner by night.

Traveling can be a sure way to break friends. Crikey 2 people can have problems, 8 is a disaster waiting to happen. By the time you have reached a conclusion on what to do 7 people are pi$$ed off.

Good luck

Muck

It depends on the couples and how flexible/good at compromise/sociable you all are. I've travelled with large groups of friends a few times and it has all worked out well.

I can just see a few arguments about who gets to drive the barge though! Make sure everyone who wants to gets a fair turn and it isn't taken over by a self-appointed 'captain' as I reckon that's the most likely trigger for conflict you'll have.

All of the suggestions to split up each morning sound like the answer to "How can four couples travel together happily" must be "by not traveling together."

It's much easier to do with one city and it can be a lot of fun if everyone is flexible. My husband and I have done this with a smaller group and it worked out well. On the days when I wanted to do something he wasn't that interested in, I found another friend to go with me.
We've also done it on a 3 city vacation and it was fun. Since it was my idea, I got everyone together for planning before the trip. Then I made a rough itinerary and sent it to everyone long before the trip in case there were changes. Once I made the final it was done and everyone was happy.
The one thing I didn't foresee was that one friend invited a friend who lived in one of the cities to join us in the next city. She has a more the merrier attitude. This worked out okay but there was a little grumbling since the hotel rooms were booked as doubles.

If something like this would be a problem for anyone; it needs to be discussed.
Meet for a meal every couple of days or see each other in or near the hotel at breakfast.
Communication is the key.

The ladies have to be sure they are all compatible. We have to bond in order to have a good time traveling with other women. If they ain't bonded there will be Trouble brewing.

I, too, suggest a trial run of a week locked up in a small place and see what happens.

You all are great! We will be barging the first week of October. We have all spent time together in close quarters, though not all at once. All of the men and two of the women chartered in the USVI twenty years ago. Two of the women are new, me being one of them. We all really like each other a lot.

Three couples will be staying in Paris at the same hotel for 2-4 nights. Those staying for four nights live well together and often at one another's houses. I think we'll be okay in Paris because it will all be fresh and exciting.

The most recent worry I've had is over food while barging. We have different eating styles, budgets and dietary constraints. It seems impractical for each couple to buy their own food as I assume the marine fridge will be small. Not everyone likes to shop and/or cook. So, maybe a kitty for basics and then a la carte for whatever is not covered by the basics (whatever the heck we decide those are!)

Two of us love to cook. But there is some talk of trading out the cooking duties amongst us. Idea is, we divide into "teams" and one team is responsible for provisioning and preparing a meal once or twice. But, I worry that for those who do not enjoy these tasks, it will be torture.

I am very interested in eating well when I plunk down my euros ata restaurant. I do the research and love the anticipation. Not willing to leave it to chance and just wander in any open door as others might be. Not sure how the barging day will play out in terms of mealtimes. (Like, can we puh-leeze tie up for lunch at Lameloise?) J62, I'd be very happy to pick all the restaurants! But then I'd worry that I was not meeting everyone's needs... (sigh)

After the barging, we will be taken under wing by friends who own a house, either lodging with them or close by. We will let them be the "organized tour." We'll have to behave!

We have chosen a captain since it is required by the rental company, as well as common sense. We are long-time boaters and well know the necessity of having one person in charge.

The idea of having half the crew off and about for a day on four bikes is very interesting. I will certainly rent a bike for myself, regardless if anyone else is interested in biking. Some of us are not too agile anymore, but maybe we should discuss getting a few bikes so that the option is there.

Michael, I would love to hear more about your barging experience. Any trip reports?

Thanks everyone!

When I was apart of four couples renting a villa in Tuscany, food was the problem too. Some wanted to spend time at a leisurely slow excellent lunch, others wanted to grab a slice of pizza on the go. There were two martyrs who would sit and order dessert and watch us eat.

It did cause hard feelings also because there were different budgets involved.

I would seriously think about that part and come to some mutual conclusion which everyone must get involved in making BEFORE the trip.

Good luck, it should make an interesting trip report, did you read Barb's report of traveling with friends last year?

Amy,

Sounds like you are going to have a lot of fun on your trip. One thing you might think about is the availability of restaurants on the section of waterway you will be cruising. Our last canal trip was in September on the upper Saone, and we found most of the restaurants close to teh river to be closed.

I had told the other couple on our trip that I came to France mostly to enjoy the food, and had no intention of cooking large evening meals aboard. Breakfast of pasteries and baggette fresh from the local bakery, lunch of baggette and the wonders from a French deli, but out to dinner in the evening.

Since the restaurants I had picked were mostly closed, we had a couple of hungry nights aboard, due to my lack of planning. Some hackles were raised as we shared the last crust of bread and split the pate four ways.

If you are planning on eating out, you may be disapointed in October, so plan on having enough emergency rations (wine, particularly) on board to prevent mutiny.

Have a wonderful trip!

:-)

There will be nine of you on the barge?

How many heads? One will break down within the first 2 days so I would recommend at least 3. The WC situation will be an issue.

And discuss room division and storage.

We have chartered sailboats (3 couples) in Turkey, Greece, Belize, Pacific NW. 2 week trips. I can tell you all that togetherness is wearing. But we had great times!

If you are planning this trip as a chance for 16 friends to get together, and oh-by-the-way let's do the get-together as a barge trip in France, it will be a success.

If you are planning this trip as a trip to France, and oh-by-the-way wouldn't it be 16 times the fun if we do it with our friends....the odds of disappointment start to get uncomfortably high. I'm in agreement with those who say that if each couple has their own plans before and/or after the barge trip, this will reduce a lot of the pressure on the barge trip to be anything more than a take-what-comes arrangement.

Amy,

I don't know a thing about boating, but I know a lot about traveling with friends.

We are five couples, and have taken at least one trip to Europe together for the last eight years.

Common problems and how we avoid them:

The "joined at the hip syndrome"
We aren't, since we don't do everything together, except for things that are especially planned, such as a day in Paris with Michael Osman, a day trip to Orvieto from Rome, a trip to Siena from Florence.

Other than those things, we're on our own.

The dreaded "how do we pay for restaurant meals" question:

We usually have picked a restaurant (or two or three) for dinner, and eat more or less together at night.

One person pays for the meal. When we get home, we split the cost evenly among the couples, no matter what you ordered. Everybody knows this, and agrees that the convenience of this method is worth the slight inequity in cost.

On our last trip (Amsterdam and Bruges in October), we took this a little
further, and one person paid for all the meals we ate together. When we got home, we divided the cost as usual.

Early birds or sleepers-in:

We almost always have a good breakfast included in our room rate, and almost everybody shows up the mornings. If someone sleeps in, it's fine. It's everybody's vacation, after all.

We just try to

Yikes! I don't know what happened.

But to continue:

We are good friends and enjoy having fun together. None of our group is a bit shy about speaking up if a problem comes up, and we work it out.

My last advice:

Keep your sense of humor and you'll (probably) all still be friends when you get home.

Byrd

Byrd, That's a good system. The person who gets out their CC first gets the miles!

Sea Urchin, you have expressed one of my concerns regarding restaurants. We may have different budgets, different ideas of what is "expensive" and different interests in food, both quantity and quality. I just don't know for sure yet. I think we need to talk about it beforehand.

As for restaurant tabs, I am thinking that someone might keep a little tally at the table. Not to the penny, but so that we have a general sense of where each couple stands. We so often order a fixed price menu rather than a la carte, I think this could be a simple solution.

As far as locking ourselves together for a trial run, we all live many thousands of miles apart so this is not feasible. And to answers someone else's question, we are taking this trip to be together and France just happens to be a half-way point of sorts. Yes, I love France, but hope to spend the rest of my life traveling there. This trip is not about being in France for me. (Okay, that's a lie! The reunion is most important. But I am thrilled we'll be in France!)

Nukesafe, I have been looking at ViaMichelin for restaurant suggestions. We will be on the Saone (between Chalon and Tournus) so I worry about your experience and how closures may impact us in October. Many places seem to be open, albeit with limited hours. Do you think I can trust ViaM? Were these restaurants which you found closed in the towns or smaller, canal-side establishments? We'll be sure to lay in a supply of canned food for emergencies! ;-)

Part of the reason we chose this particular company and model of boat (Locaboat's 1500FB) was that there are four separate and equal cabins, each with it's own head. Having lived on a sailboat for two years, I know about the head problems. We'll have options, and hopefully enough good will to share if and when we need to! I assume it goes without saying that each couple must store their luggage, etc. in their own cabin.

My latest thinking is that we should delegate specific functions as follows: provisioning, cooking, clean-up, captaining, co-captaining, deck hands. There seems to be a somewhat clear division of labor and interests among us, at least to me. I am also wondering if we will get into an easier routine if everyone has a job that they keep for the week.

I assume there will be crossover and that people will pitch in on other jobs as the mood strikes. For instance, the cook should not be charged with cooking every meal eaten aboard. And a deck hand can come and help shop and carry groceries back to the boat. No one should be dragged from a nap or a good book to assist with locking. And all concerned should clean up after themselves.

Any thoughts on this?

Hi Amy,

>Not everyone likes to shop and/or cook.<

Since two of you do, I suggest that you two do the provisioning and be the cooks.

Remember:

The cook does not do the dishes.

The cook doesn't stand watch.

((I))
Former sailor

I don't understand your idea about somebody having to keep a tally at a restaurant as to what everybody ordered. I would be annoyed and insulted if I ever went out to dinner with someone who did that to me, as it is basically telling someone you think they are cheap and trying to cheat others and/or too stupid to add up their own bill. I think it's very pushy and overbearing and sets a real bad tone.

However, if you travel in a group who all think that is a great idea because they have terrible memories or whatever, then it might work for your group. I just think any reasonable adult couple knows perfectly well what they ordered and it perfectly capable of keeping an estimate in their own head, or you just pass around the bill when it comes so someone can glance at it to remind themself.

Actually, what is the point of someone keeping tabs on people since the bill will itemize the cost of each dish anyway, it's not like you won't get a bill showing you.

>captaining, co-captaining,...<

A boat can have only 1 captain, even if barging on a canal.

Somebody has to have the authority to make decisions.

If your captain screws up, make him/her walk the plank..

Choose your most experienced member. First mate will be the next most experienced.

Remember, the First Mate has to make sure that the bitter end of the anchor rode is attached to the boat. :)

((I))

Ira,

There is nothing wrong with having more than one skipper, as long as everyone knows who to listen to at critical moments. On our last trip, the other male was as experienced in boats as I was, so we took turns. Capitain Bligh types just have to learn when to keep their traps shut when off duty.

Amy40,

I looked up your Locaboat 1500. That is a HUGE vessel! Be advised that winds can be strong in the Saone Valley in the fall, and the combination of high freeboard, shallow draft, and gusty winds can make entering locks at slow speed troublesome. Your bow thruster should make all the difference though. I would not take a larger boat on the canals without one. We had a Tarpon 37 (11 meters) for the four of us for our last trip.

I think you will not have the trouble with restaurants that we did, because you will be on the lower Saone. We made the mistake of going North from Pontailler-sur-Saone, and that stretch is really rural. Restaurants are sparce up there even during the season. Many bigger towns where you will be.

We did have onememorable meal on the trip, at the town of Gray, in a hotel right at the end of the bridge. I'll copy an exerpt from my trip report:

"By that time the laundry was finally (almost) dry. It was 18:30 by the time we got back to the boat.
Dick and Nancy decided they did not feel like dinner out and elected to stay on the boat. I took
my cell phone and Tammy and I were waiting, famished, by the door of the restaurant when it,
indeed, opened at 7:15. I called Dick on the boat and told him, and urged them to join us.

I went into all this detail because the restaurant served us one of the best meals either of us has
ever eaten! The decor was elegant; fresh flowers or original art ceramics on widely separated
tables. The table setting was striking; a huge turquoise charger at each place setting. The service
was attentive. The menu looked moderately priced, with a choice of an €18, €23, €28, or 36
€menu. We chose the €23 menu which started with an amusee bouche that was a chilled
cucumber concoction, decorated with fresh herbs. That was followed by a salad that could have
been the main dish, full of marinated sea food such as mussels, fresh shrimp, and unusual cone-
shell snails. Tammy had lovely thick steak with Bearnaise sauce, while I had locally caught perch.
The cheese course gave us a choice from a cart just stacked with delectable choices. I tried three;
my favorite being a local Epoisses, all yellow and runny. We ordered deserts, but just before they
came the waiter placed a small dish on the table that contained an even dozen small pastries and
macaroons. We blinked, because this was obviously not the desert, but a little extra. Our deserts
were sumptuous, Tammy with a large Creme Brulee, and mine kind of tarte served on a huge
white rectangular dish, the tarte in a depression on one end, and the rest of the dish artistically
decorated with swirled caramel. All followed by coffee. I would have loved a cognac, but had no
more room. We also had a half liter of the house red, which was quite drinkable.

The grand total for this meal that showed up on my Visa when I got home was $62.64. Hell, we
have spent that much in Pizza Hut."

Please let us know how the trip went after you return.

:-)

Whoops, forgot to mention the name of the restaurant in Grey. From my trip report:

"If you are ever in Gray, France, We can heartily recommend the Restaurant Au Mastroquet in the
Hotel Bellevue, 1 Avenue Carnot, just at the Eastern end of the bridge in Grey."

:-)

Ira, I'm glad to hear that since I will likely be one of those cooks, I won't have to stand watch! Being at the helm on overnight passages was never one of my favorite turns of duty.

Regarding the experience of the sailors involved, we lived aboard and cruised for two years so wither my husband or I would make decent captains. The "official captain of record" is a very experienced weekend sailor with many bareboat charters under his belt. I suppose First Mate would have been a better term to use. It will likely be my husband.

Christina, the idea of a tally is so that one person can cover the entire bill, as others have suggested, and we can settle up later, either at the end of the day or the end of the trip. This is not about suspicions or cheating -- nothing so ugly. Just about handling the business smoothly at the end of the meal.

Nukesafe, "high freeboard, low draft and gusty winds" sounds just like my life aboard a 42' catamaran. Maybe my husband should be captain. Well, come to think of it, that's why we now live on land! I appreciate the heads up. The Other Captain sails in SF Bay and on the Pacific. This man knows wind! Bless the bow thrusters.

Sadly we will not be near Gray. Our landside experience will be west of Dijon, near Montbard, I believe. But the description of your meal was quite wonderful. One need not pay a ransom for fabulous, memorable meals in France. What we give up in scenery in the lower Saone will hopefully be compensated for in good restaurants that are OPEN!

I'm getting a bit lost here. I thought it was a barge trip - up a river or canal, not sailing.

Frankly, any idiot can 'captain' these things (I should know, I've done it twice ;-)) so previous sailing experience does not necessarily mean you'll be any better at it than anyone else. They hire them out to absolutely anyone and give you a short 'driving' lesson.

If everyone's happy with the two sailor men captaining and deck-handing and doing all the fun stuff with the boat, then fine, but it's starting to sound like all the boys get to play and the women get stuck in the cabin cooking. Perhaps its just the way its coming across here - but I don't think I'd fancy coming on this trip as I've been on other things the men have just taken over completely and not enjoyed it at all.

First, Amy..you need to clearly set limits <b>for yourself</b> in terms of that &quot;responsibility&quot; you've decided to take to make sure you've got as much right as possible beforehand.

Are you making these arrangements arbitrarily or has there already been input on any of this from the others...that would be important to know IMO.

I personally find it very offensive when I read about how women somehow have these special &quot;bonding&quot; or any other &quot;needs&quot; that have to happen &quot;or there will be trouble.&quot;

Are these people adults? If they are, then they should be expected to take on a certain amount of responsibility (read that as <b>remain flexible and sensitive to everyone else's needs</b>) to make this thing a success.

If people want to sleep in in the morning...let them do so. If that puts a damper on anyone else's activity that's not your problem to shoulder.

When people find out that what they do and do not decide to do isn't going to be the center of everyone else's universe they'll soon get into the swing of things and everyone will be quite &quot;happy.&quot;

Nona, references to sailing are only because a few of us are sailors here. Boats are boats. Each has it's own personality and handling style, largely due to things like freeboard, draft, propwalk, etc. One can not know what to expect of a new vessel, only what to look out for. Usually I look out for the other boaters!

As for division of labor, each member of the party of eight will need to decide what he or she is inclined to do, if that's the way the division of labor goes down. It might not even play out that way. One possible arrangement (which made some sense to me) had the inside/outside duties split down the middle, gender-wise.

Dukey, you are right about limiting my responsibility. I wondered if I was making too big a deal out of this idea of advance planning and discussion, figuring out restaurants and responsibilities, etc. That maybe we should be more relaxed and play it by ear once we get there, despite my natural inclination. So I thought I'd send it up before you guys...my experts...for a reality check! Pretty much everyone supports the advance communication, so I feel reassured that its the right way to go.

As for woman trouble, I'm not totally sure what is meant by that. When I think about the four of us (women!) I can't imagine anything unpleasant going on. We are all adult (the women and even the men!), come to think of it. We also really like each other an awful lot. So, no worries there.

I think it is going to be a successful trip. If I didn't, I sure wouldn't be investing my money, time and flyer miles. I appreciate all the good &quot;thinking points&quot; posted here. We will certainly benefit from your collective wisdom and experience.

Well of course, I'm sure you'll all work it out just fine. Relax, it's not all your responsibility. Play it by ear. Agree in advance things like budget and so on, and then see.

But if someone so much as suggested this about a trip I was going on 'One possible arrangement (which made some sense to me) had the inside/outside duties split down the middle, gender-wise'. I'd be extremely pissed off with them to understate it. Gee, I get to stay indoors doing housework and shopping while the big strong clever men get to play with the boat? I couldn't see any of my female friends going with that either...so unless you know the women very well perhaps best not to suggest this. It would offend me. Perhaps it will offend them.

There need to be little concern about who's the captain and who has handled a boat before. Among our 12, only one had any experience and we had two boats. On the first day we tended to weave across the canal like drunks, but quickly got used to the steering. Canal boats don't go faster than 5 to 7 km. per hour anyway.

I wrote about the women bonding because it seemed to me that the men were all friends and bringing along their second wives to be there while the men get together for fun.

I wouldn't want to be stuck on a barge with some women I didn't especially like or care for just because our husbands were old friends. Or be expected to enjoy kitchen chores with someone's second wife because we are the same sex.

Now I know these women all know and like each other so there is no problem with that.

Thanks Michael, my point exactly. Any old moron can drive one of these. No previous experience required. The only reason the hiring co. ask for a named person is so they can just teach one person everything instead of trying to do a lesson for 10 people all at the same time. But really, it's a five minute explanation and then off you can go..so anyone can do it after that.

No no nona, as for the division of labor, I am still not making myself clear, I see. At least one of the men is a great cook. And at least one woman is a great and experienced boater. When I say &quot;down the middle&quot; I mean that I could easily see half the men inside and half the women outside.

Or maybe we'll all multi-task!

Sea Urchin, your clarification made me laugh. I had the opportunity to &quot;bond&quot; with my husband's ex-wife while washing dishes at numerous family reunions, to which she was still welcome! I absolutely get what you're talking about. I think the four of us are happily beyond that stage!

Michael, the image of two barges careening down the canals amuses me. Of course, there will be a learning curve. Fortunately, we'll be in the Canal du Centre before casting out into the wide open Saone.

Oh, I am so looking forward to this trip!! :-)

Have you thought about renting cell phones for when you're off the boat? I'm not sure how expensive it is but if it fits in your budget it might save you from the situation where one couple drops what they're doing (and enjoying) to meet at the scheduled place and time for dinner while the other couple stumbles on an adventure that leads them to decide not to stick to the original dinner plans. I know we're all trying to get AWAY from cell phones on vacations but phones rented strictly for this purpose could really help. Maybe one part of the group discovers something that the rest of the group might want to join!

LOL, Amy40, can you tell I was speaking from experience too?!

Have a great trip and make sure you report to us!