mwiars, welcome back: according to the (very reliable) Austrian online telephone directory, there is nobody named Reynat in the whole country, let alone in Wien, let alone in Kärntnerstraße (which would, btw, be a VERY noble address - hardly anybody lives there, this is primarily an elegant business & hotels district). I really don't want blame you for this highly unpleasant experience, but as a rule, part of my "owner's check" is not just the kind of email communication I mentioned above, but also and always a check of the telephone directory... I suppose Monsieur Reynat (this must be his real name, I repeat, or he wouldn't have got the money) doesn't actually live in Austria but is there regularly for, say, business reasons - and picks up his payments in Austria. He doesn't need to live there, obviously, since one of the main advantages of Western Union is that you can provide funds instantly to a relative or friend who is abroad and needs money: that's why you give the name of the receiver and the country where s/he'll pick it up, but this doesn't need to be his/her home country! Anyhow, you'll trace him - Austria is one of the countries where the Western Union rules (contrary to what superheterodyne fears for countries other than France) are STRICTLY observed, so his passport copy will certainly be there... Good luck, mwiars!

By the way, it would have been a great location had the apartment existed. That building houses some of Paris's toniest shops along with British Airways.

As for credit card refunds, mwiars, I'm sorry I don't know "your" CC company, but many other companies provide this kind of protection - see what all the others posted above: they're paying by credit card in order to get a refund in case of fraud - and this doesn't mean fraudulent use of the credit card, but fraudulent service paid for by credit card!

I haven't but I'm glad you came back & clarified. Sure hope you have better luck in the future. Your experience may have helped someone else not to be stuck as you were.

Franco, I guess I still don't understand (perhaps its the graying :)).

When sending money via Western Union with a credit card, the transaction charged is with Western Union. However, they did not provide fraudulent services. Their services were normal, up front and honest. It is the end user that picked up the money who was fraudulent. Western Union has no control over the end user.

I guess I'm trying to figure out how to explain it to the credit card company that Western Union was fraudulent.

Any help is appreciated.

baladeuse, that seriously does sound like a good part time job for an energetic college student. She could charge by the apartment, nose around someone's final two choices and submit a report along the lines of: "apt A is clean and bright, but bedroom windows directly overlook Motorcycle Revvers and Amateur Bagpipe Players' Center parking lot."

mwiars, first of all, the credit card use protects you against any possible (though not probable) Western Union violation of their own rules. Had they failed to store the receiver's passport number (which won't be the case in Austria, but let's follow superheterodyne and suppose you had sent the money to Namibia, and the WU agent there didn't follow the rules), their service would be defective to the extent that the CC company had to protect you - that's for certain, and that's certainly a relief, I guess.

The rest of your question is tough, and I won't be able to give a 100 percent answer - you'd need a specialized consumerism lawyer for that matter. But I guess it depends on who pays the CC fee of approximately 4 percent - if WU absorbs it (as every shop, restaurant, hotel does), then the argument of your CC company might be airtight. However, as far as I understand it (and I must stress that I don't know for sure, since I never use WU - not for safety issues, but for reasons of price and service, see above), YOU are paying those 4 percent IN ADDITION to what you'd have to pay if you went to your WU agent. If so, it could very well turn out that WU is not the contractor of this deal (juridically, although both WU and the CC company might insist on the contrary) and that the CC company is responsible for protecting you... just as a guideline for a thorough discussion with the specialized lawyer I was referring to!

franco posted, in part:

"...the crooked owner, on the customer's side: the traveler who pays a rental by credit card, makes use of it, enjoys the holiday - and goes back home, files a protest with the credit card company, says the hotel, or the apartment owner, or whoever, has taken his money fraudulently since he never made use of the rental - and gets the money back!!that's the safety the credit card company provides. But of course, the credit card company will now hold the "fraudulent" landlord responsible; while the true fraud is their own customer... and in this case, it's up to the hotel (or apartment) to prove that this nice guest has actually spent his or her holiday there; which isn't always easy, as you can guess."

*******

franco, I can't see how a theoretical dishonest customer could transact for an apartment or room with a credit card, occupy the room or apartment, enjoy it happily, and then successfully claim to the CC company that he or she paid for a service he or she never received, thereby automatically getting his or her money back, no questions asked.

First, I've yet to meet the hotel or apartment owner who handed me a key without my having to sign some form of acceptance of occupancy of the room or apartment - and that includes those times when I've prepaid the hotel (which I have done, albeit only with a well-known brand name of hotel that offered substantial discount in return.)

That signed check-in form is the vendor's proof that I took delivery of the goods and/or service. If I as buyer subsequently try to claim that the goods or service were fraudulent in some way, notwithstanding that I signed acceptance (of the actual goods and/or service, not just the terms for same), it is more that it is up to me to prove that fraud took place. How often do we in these forums hear from people who, dissatisfied with the accomodation, checked out early - and still got dinged for the cancellation penalty, because the CC company held that customer disappointment does not de facto equate to breach of contract by the vendor? To give an example: mismatched drapes, a crummy room location, or even deafening noise from a nearby factory, do not in the usual instance mean the vendor did not perform the contract.

The world's biggest and most successful hotel chains do millions of business every day with credit card payments. They would not do so, if they could be defrauded so easily.

It's true that small hotels/apartments/bed and breakfasts often do not want to do business with CCs. But that is usually because the establishments don't wish to incur the overheads involved with CC processing.

___________________

(Sorry mwiars, this got off somewhat on a tangent from the topic of your thread, and your own problem. I still think you should try to get some expert advice on this. At the very least, try contacting the police in Vienna.)

Sue, sorry, but 1. my own experience is 100 percent contrary to yours: only twice in my life, I had to sign a receipt on delivery of apartment keys, once in Venice and once in Paris - and never in a hotel (though I'll immediately admit that I rarely book hotels, mostly apartments). So let's agree that this seems to be very different from country to country, or also from one price level of accomodation to the other.
2. What's a signature good for? I don't want to make this thread a "how-to-cheat-an-owner" guideline, but if a dishonest tenant deliberately wants to cheat the hotel or the apartment owner, it won't be difficult for him to fake his own signature to the extent of being able to say, afterwards: "no, that's obviously not my signature - someone has tried to counterfeit it" (e.g. from a passport copy he might pretend to have provided in advance, which accounted also for the fact that the hotel or owner has actually a copy of the traveler's passport). And no, "the world's biggest and most successful hotel chains" won't have too grave problems with such tenants, since in this case, the CC company will be inclined to believe Hilton Hotels rather than John Smith from North Dakota. But in the case of Albergo Musumeci of Caltanissetta, Sicilia, things might be seen differently by Visa or Amex.

In renting dozens of apartments I'm trying to recall ever "signing" on arrival or for receipt of the keys. I don't think so.

The only time I've ever signed for keys was when we needed a second set. And that was a couple of days after we checked in.

The only thing I've ever signed was a contract at the time of booking & in one place on Ennismore Gardens in London, the CC slip for the final payment when I arrived.

miwars....just a thought, but maybe you could send your story to Ombudsman in Conde Nast Traveler. When they choose to print your story, the party who should stand behind their rentals, ie: Homelidays, usually comes through with the money rather than be hurt by the bad publicity. Good luck! Mary

Franco: Clearly we have had different experiences, but my point is apt: if a buyer gives their CC number to confirm a contract, to cancel said contract is not just a matter of telling the CC company "I never stayed there." The buyer has to send a written cancellation notice, and whether the buyer gets any money back (assuming there was a pre-paid deposit or even the entire amount) depends on the terms of the cancellation policy in the contract. The onus is on the buyer to prove the contract was cancelled, in that instance, not the other way around.(The establishment need not prove that the person took occupancy, if payment was made on a nonrefundable basis, and the person was a no-show for the tenancy.)

As for the instance of a patron who actually shows up, it is not uncommon for the hotel to request the patron actually present a credit card upon the latter's checking into the establishment. This, along with various other details of the check-in procedure, is at least partial proof that the cardholder(or at least a person in possession of the card, which is another matter altogether)has physically presented himself at the hotel, and has been given a set of keys. The establishment in many countries also often asks for a passport so that they can record the details - this is not only for the police, it assures them the guest is who he or she says he is.

I concede that if apartment owners operate like restaurants, and provide goods and services without first asking for a clearance of charges to be made on the card, or in other words, solely in the expectation of being paid, they are vulnerable as are restaurants to being given the slip by dishonest patrons. If so, this is indeed most unfortunate. But it is not an excuse for their claiming that CCs are unacceptable means of securing deposits. (By the way, even as I post, spouse has just come up and asked about a charge on his CC - it's a deposit I made for a room in a small chateau - all of 5 rooms - in France.)

It is true that CC companies will investigate allegations of fraud by buyers and sometims find in the buyers' favour. But CC companies are just as interested in preventing fraud perpetrated by buyers. This is because the companies only get paid, when the vendor gets paid (i.e., their revenues are generated as a percentage of vendors' sales.)

By the way, if a CC company invariably believes a large company like Hilton over Alberto so-and-so, then why would they not believe an apartment owner over Alberto so-and-so? Alberto is just as insignificant, in both instances. Clearly, the CC company has to have a formal procedure that doesn't depend on trust in either party, since if trust were a substitute for wise business practice, there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place.

Renter beware! We rented an apt. with Homelidays in November. The first apt we rented (property #24550; owner Patrick Couderc) was a bogus rental agreement (not sure if the apt exists.) I sent the contract and deposit (through Western Union). He sent me a note saying that he had rented it to someone else despite our contract. I quickly contacted West Union and stopped the payment before it was picked up. I complained to Homelidays and they leaned on the owner to return the transfer fee. Don't rent from this sleazy guy! After reading these posts, I think I was very lucky to get the $ back.
We did successfully and happily rent from another owner on Homelidays and paid by Paypal. I would consider using the service again but only with Paypal or cc protection. Forget money wires.
It is good to post names of owners who are fraudulent on this site.
If anyone rents from Homelidays you should contact them and ask for a guarantee that the place and owner exist! They'll figure out a way to verify the apts they're representing. If not, who would rent from them??

Why is it even people who have used some of these websites don't understand what they are. You aren't renting from homelidays, they are not a rental agency. You don't rent from them, you contact the owner. They are a spot for owners to advertise their own places. Homelidays own website states states <<The Homelidays website publishes accommodations advertised by their owners... Homelidays is not a real estate agency. >>

They do make noise about how they will take ads off if there are enough complaints or something, but I don't know if they have a real incentive to care whether anyone rents a place on there or not. They say they don't take a commission from the owner, so I don't see why they'd care if a place ever gets rented.

I see one flaw in their terms for the owners, which is an owner can use the site for free for a month on trial. So, that could lead to fraud or a bad property a little more, I suppose, although I'm sure fraud is very rare.

I also used homelidays, the apartment was there, but it was cold, musty and just nasty, the pool was dirty. I paid a 200 euro deposit and now the owner refuses to answer my phone calls or emails and I have not received it back.

I guess I have to chalk it up as a lesson learned.

I will NEVER use this website again, I contacted the website this evening, so I am waiting to hear what they have to say.

My apartment rental in Venice via Homelidays couldn't have been nicer, nor more professionally handled by the wonderful owner.

Homelidays acts as a 'go between' service for property owners, and those seeking accommodation. Any reservations or financial agreements are arranged exclusively between the owner and the renter.
Nevertheless, we have a dedicated team worldwide who work to prevent fraudulent listings appearing on our site. In addition, if we had received serious complaints about a property, this would result in the advert being removed from our site.

However, for extra peace of mind when booking a rental property, we recommend the following steps:

1) Read testimonials from past renters

Read testimonials from past renters who have stayed at the properties advertised on our site. For this, simply click on the "Testimonials" tab on the advert.

2) Check how long the advertiser has been with us

Find out how long the owner has been advertising with us by scrolling down to the "Prices and availabilities" section of the advert. The longer an owner has been with us, the less likely they are to have been troublesome.

3) Register for the Carefree Package with Europ Assistance

Homelidays has an exclusive partnership with Europ Assistance who provide a comprehensive insurance policy for renters booking a property advertised on our site. For more information, visit:

http://www.homelidays.co.uk/EN-Holid...ance_price.asp

4) Get a rental contract before sending payment

Before sending any payment to the owner, request and complete a rental contract. The contract should specify the dates you are booking, the deposit and total rental fee plus any additional charges, cancellation and refund policies.

5) Use our recommended payment methods

When making payment for a holiday rental property, some forms of payment are more secure than others. Credit card payments offer the safest method followed by Paypal. Bank transfer or personal cheque are also common payment methods accepted by private owners. We strongly recommend that you never make payment by cash transfer services such as Western Union as these are untraceable.

We hope this gives peace of mind about booking properties advertised on our site.

We were taken in by the same scammer on Homelidays,someone posing as an Austrian doctor with an apartment for rent in Paris. This was in 2007 and homelidays would do nothing for us. I made a mistake of using western union to wire the money and when he called back and asked for more money for a very obscure reason(he had his lawyer picking it up) is when I got suspicious and said we wanted to cancel.Thank god, I could have lost even more money. He then stopped answering our calls and emails. We lost about 1200. to this guy. We tried everything we could and no one would do anything about it so we had to chalk it up as a lesson learned. We did file a police report locally but knew that would go no where.
Homelidays admitted that they knew the ad was a scam and would remove it. We asked them to give us the names of others cheated by this guy but they would not. We knew we were not the only ones. In any case, I decided I would NEVER use HOMELIDAYS again based on their response to the problem. They could simply verify owners/addresses as we did when we went to Paris. In fact, there was no apartment at the given location. We have gone on to rent apartments with success using other agencies. HOMELIDAYS says they are not accountable but they could do more to make it safer from scammers which is becoming more and more a problem on the web these days.