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Help with French Place Pronuciations
We are preparing for our second trip to Provence next month - listening to the French language CD's, English-French books, etc. While these provide a lot of help with pronouncing French words, there is very little help with French places. How do you say?
St. Remy Roussillon Gordes Bonnieux Les Baux Uzes Cassis Is there a source to look up this stuff? Thanks, JoeG |
I'll take a stab at it.
Sahn-rim-may (accent on last syllable) Rooce-ee-yahn (accent on first syllable, second accent on last syllable) Gore-dez (accent on first syllable) Bon-new (accent on last syllable) Lay-bo (accent on last syllable) Kas-seece (accent on last syllable) I'll leave Uzes for someone else. |
St Remy = "Saint Ramie"
Cassis = "Cass-eece" The others all have sounds that are unique to French - it would be nearly impossible to spell it out in a way that you would understand. Try to find someone you know that speaks even a bit of french. |
If this is Gordes in the Luberon, it's simply "Gord", isn't it? No reason to pronounce the last syllable with this sort of spelling, I was taught.
On the other hand Uzès has the "grave" e, which gives weight to that syllable, so that's "Ew-zez", with the stress on the last syllable, and the "Ew" the very pinched "u" sound we had a long thread about some months ago (say EE with your lips wide but close together, and push them forward, as if about to give a maiden aunt a peck on the cheek). I'd have thought any good language guid should indicate the various rules of French spelling and pronunciation - they are much more regular than English. |
I agree it's practically impossible to do this, but since I disagree with some of Patrick's tries, I'll try to do better:
Sahn Ray Me (barely pronounce the "n") Roo Seey Ohn (ditto) Gord (one syllable) Bon Yeu (think Sound of Music - "and yeu and yeu and yeu..") Lay Bow U Zes (to make the U sound, say EEEEE and pucker your lips) Cah Seess (some would say Cah See) |
"Cah see" is enough
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note that the 'bow' St cirq uses in 'lay bow' would be pronounced like 'bow' as in 'bow and arrow' (NOT the 'bow' of a boat)
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Joe G - St Cirqs spellings are definitely closer than Patricks - especially with Bonnieux, and St Remy
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I think I prefer StCirq's recommendations.
((I)) |
We have had a discussion here before about certain place names in France that end in "is" or "as" and as to whether the "s" is pronounced or not. The consensus seemed to be - and it's been borne out by my own experience - that some (French) people pronounce the "s" and some do not. I think the preponderance pronounce the "s" but I've definitely heard the no-s pronounciation.
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Wow, would you really pronounce St. as Saint, to rhyme with "ain't"? Not, "sahn" with a very soft n at the end?
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From my experience, none of the approximations will play for a French ear, with the possible exception of Gordes. Do not expect to be understood at the first try, and keep a map handy to point to the location you are seeking.
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Syllables are all given equal emphasis. Forget any but the written accent.
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The problem with giving "phonetic" pronunciations is you have to make sure you aren't giving something that can still be pronounced two ways.
If you write "Lay-bow", I'd pronounce that second syllable like taking a bow before an audience -- rhyming with "now". If that's right, I've sure been very wrong all these years. Maybe I have? Does it rhyme with now or no? |
Michael,
You are correct. Last time when we were going through airline security at CDG, we were asked "where did you begin your travels today?" I kept responding "Arl!" (Arles) He had no idea what I was talking about. I thought that was an easy one! JoeG |
Cassis rhyme with Paris. No endig "s".
"Gord" is a bad approach to Gordes because it tends to be pronounced as an only syllabe, while in fact it should be pronounced as 2 syllabes "gor-de" |
Patrick, it rhymes with neither since both English words are dipthongs and the French ends in a pure vowel, but "no" is a closer approximation. There is a reason why the IPA was invented. Someone who has done classical singing, solo or choral, should be able to get the sounds right because in that music the notes are maintained as pure sounds with no dipthongization(sp ?).
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Joe, next time try to say "Ar-le".
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Lobo, the <i>méridional</i> pronunciation often adds that syllable at the end of the word, but northern French does not, and the <i>méridionaux</i> understand the Parisians. The problem does not lie with the second syllable, but with the pronunciation of the A and the R in Arles, and the O and R in Gordes.
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If you know how to spell it, write it down for the person who wants to know. That's easier.
It's the French R and the fully pronounced French L at the end that make it hard. French people probably won't understand if you pronounce an American R and an American L... as has been said. |
Here are a few more towns that I'm not sure of the pronunciation:
Menerbes Saignon Carpentras Cavaillon Maussane Eygalieres JoeG |
I agree that previous conversations on how to <i><b>write</b></i> in " English" the pronunciation in French is an exercise in "can't-be-done".
Still, I'm very surprised that "sahn" would be considered particularly close to the pronunciation of the French "Saint". It rhymes with the French word "vin", not with the French name "Jean". I would explain it as the first syllable in "sandwich", but without pronouncing the "n", or the "d". Kinda like a kid says it... saaa-wich (but clearly the "aaa" is not intended to be an "ah" sound). And Remy = "rim-may"? Huh!? Reh-MEE, or ruh-MEE, or even ray-MEE, but not anything-MAY unless there is something local in the pronunciation that I have totally missed. And, as StCirq has pointed out - - the final syllably in Rousillon is the same as the first syllable in "bonjour". Not an "ahn" sound at all. While I defer to StCirq - - and I think that the advice about listening to that impish line in the "Sound of Music" (I would have written it "yieu and yieu and yieu" - - since it is sung as a direct rhyme to "adieu"), I think that "Bon" is potentially confusing... in American English, for example, bon-bon rhymes with "John-John" and is really an "ah" sound. The first syllable in Bonnieux is closer to "bun", with a hint of "bone". It is NOT the same syllable as in "bonjour", but IS more or less the same as "bonne annee" or "bonne anniversaire". Last of all, writing "boe" (a syllable found in the English word "oboe") removes the possible confusion from writing "bow". Best wishes, Rex |
I see you were posting more as I was writing my post. above...
So, I will take a shot... Menerbes muh-NEHRRB Saignon seh-NYOH(n) Carpentras car-paw(n)-TRAH Cavaillon ca-vye-YOH(n) Maussane moe-SAHNN (last syllable rhymes with JOHN) Eygalieres not entirely sure if there is a local pronunciation that defies "standard" French pronunciation, since "ey" is a rare diphthong in French)... eye-gall-YEHRR |
The correct spelling is Ménerbes, and the pronunciation is something like:
may-NEHRRB The first syllable of Eygalières is pronounced 'ay' as in hay. The rest of these look right as long as it is clear that Cavaillon is kah-vye-YOH(n) |
Patrick, I think you have a terrible french accent ! :) |
oh, simply excruciating!! Please cease, please ... aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
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JoeG - this is an extremely difficult way to learn French pronunciations. In writing there will always be differences of opinion and misunderstandings on what people are trying to say. You're better off to try finding someone who can say them to you audibly.
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This is really futile. Joe, I'm tempted just to give you my phone number so you can HEAR them, but....
Menerbes - may nerhb (with a slight "eh" sound at the end - that "second syllable" that others were referring to that really isn't a complete syllable) Saignon - sen yoh(n) - I like the way Rex wrote that. Carpentras - car poh(n) trah (again, some would add the "s" sound) Cavaillon - cah vie yoh(n) (vie pronounced as in English, not the French word for life) Maussane - moe sahn Eygalieres - ay gahl yare SergioL's right...enough! |
It may not be an perfect but it helps a lot.
Thanks all. JoeG p.s. the dipthong stuff did throw me a little. |
French ponunciation site -- U.S. and U.K. English too, plus other languages
This is a voice synthesis site that can pronounce just about any word, phrase, or sentence for you in a variety of languages. It's not 100% authentic because it is synthesizing the pronunciation of spelling (and not taking into account regional or local irregularities) but it is impressive. Try it. http://www.naturalvoices.att.com/demos/index.html |
Why don't we all just learn to write and read IPA and have done with it? :)
I admit I <u>have</u> occasionally failed to make myself understood saying a couple of French place names that the locals don't pronounce phonetically, but resorting to spelling aloud in French always solved the problem. (Pedantic aside: the word is d-i-<b>p-h-t-h</b>-o-n-g, and is pronounced dif' thong. Rex gets full marks, as usual.) |
The synthesized voice pronounces Auxerre, Auxonne, and Auxois with a -ks- sound instead of the local -ss- but a lot of French people say the words that way too.
It pronounces Uzès as yew-ZAY, which a lot of French people wouldn't understand (it's yew-ZEHSS). But overall it's pretty impressive technology. |
Je suis le maître. HAHAHA
Saint Rémy (don't forget the accent) --> Sahn (hard on the n) raymee Roussillon --> roo-see-yon Gordes -->gord Bonnieux -->bohn -nee-uh Les Baux --> lay bo Uzes ( i think theres supposed to be an accent on the E to make it è) --> Ü-zehs Cassis --> kah-sees |
How about Place Des Voges?
plahs - day-vogsh no "s"? Mille mercis! |
Cassis, like Paris doesn't have a final "s".
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Why, thank you... Robespierre... I hadn't seen your kudos earlier.
And as for <<Why don't we all just learn to write and read IPA and have done with it?>> ... may I point out that someone discovered that "schwa" - - the vowel sound in "de", "le", "je", etc... can be "written" here &#601 = ə So, "we" who obsess over pronunciation could at least use that! (this isn't entirely the right thread to mention this, though! not a single single place name contains a schwa... since both "St. Rémy" and "Ménerbes" were spelled "wrong" (omitting the accent aigu in each case) |
Am enjoying this ---- I have another one --how do you pronounce "arrondissements" correctly? Thx!
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It's impossible to write this using the English alphabet, of course.
ah-ro(n)-dees-MAW(M) The all caps mean the stress in on the last syllable (as in all French words). And the (n) means the preceding vowel is a nasal vowel and the N is not really pronounced. |
I probably should have written it with two esses:
ah-ro(n)-deess-MAW(M) to make it clear that this is an S sound and not a Z sound. |
Thank you so much!
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