Help with European Itinerary
 

Hi. I just bought return tickets from Adelaide, Australia to Paris arriving at CDG airport on the 20th of November 2024 and will be going back home on the 11th of January 2025. We are a family of 4 - me (will be celebrating my 50th in Europe) , my husband (51), son (20) and daughter (18). We have travelled to non-English speaking countries in the past and we almost travel overseas every year except during Covid but this is going to be our first time in Europe so we are trying to go to as much places as we can. Planning this trip is overwhelming hence I’m seeking for your expert advise. I’m not too sure if I should do a clockwise route from Paris - London - Germany? - Netherlands?- Amsterdam? - Switzerland - Italy - France then back to Paris or do the counterclockwise route Paris - Nice - Lyon - French Riviera - Italy ( haven’t thought the route yet) - Switzerland ( the kids might want to ski in Zermatt for 1day) - then maybe Germany?Netherlands?Amsterdam? - London then back to Paris. Apologies for mixing the countries with the cities as I’m not too sure what to include and which route. We prefer to travel by train and can do car hire as well. We are used to travel like we are in an amazing race as well. I hope I can learn from your knowledge and plan our routes. Thank you so much in advance.

Moved to Europe forum

Sounds like a whirlwind tour.... For 50 days travel I'd try to book some longer stays in one location here and there just so you can catch your breath, do laundry, and enjoy less moving around at least for a while.

Clockwise vs counterclockwise doesn't really matter. Italy is not on the clock anyway......

For a trip like this it may help you out to get a paper map and put flags or pins in all the places (cities/towns/regions) you want to visit, then you might start to see some logical flow pop out. A way to think of this might be more in clusters. BENELUX, Paris, northern France/Far western Germany as one cluster.

Southern Germany/Alps/Switzerland/French Alps as another, and Italy as a 3rd. England as a 4th. Traveling within a cluster is doable by trains or car. Traveling between clusters either long distance train, or maybe even a flight...... For example, if you were in central or southern Italy, it may make sense to fly to another cluster like London instead of a long train back north.

Offhand, something like a clockwise route. London, Benelux, Germany,Italy, Switzerland, Paris seems logical, but there are infinite options and it may boil down to where you want to be, and when during those 2 months.

If your only reason for visiting Switzerland is skiing, consider also Germany, Italy, or France. All of which have a plethora of great skiing options.

Sometimes, circular routes make sense, but often mean money wasted and time backtracking. If you want to include both London and Italy, a multi-city, linear route would be better. Start in London. End in Rome. London, Paris, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Italy. Generally for Europe, it is best to have your itinerary figured out before buying tickets. Is it too late to do that? As someone else said, get a big paper map of Europe. Put pins in it. Look at what works logistically.

A cute trick with maps of far away places is to also get a map of your home country at the same scale. The trip from foreign A to B gets a sense of reality when it is matched to home C to D of the same distance.

when I lived in Texas ages ago I noted that people would routinely drive 1/2 inch on a paper map of the state to go out to dinner or shopping or whatever. When I moved to NY I noted the same 1/2” on a state map distance limit. Anything beyond that was deemed too far. Different scale but same conclusion. Go figure. AJs point (incl same scale) is spot on.

Welcome to Fodors.

" . . . so we are trying to go to as much places as we can." Makes things difficult. The more you dash around from place to place you end up likely seeing less. When you subtract all the transit days and acclimating to each new destination - you end up actually seeing / doing less than if you slowed down just a teensy bit. I don't mean spending a week in each place (though cities like London definitely warrant staying a week or more).

Nov 21 through Jan 10 (the actual useable touring time) - 7 weeks - is a generous amount of time. But if you are traveling full stop for seven weeks, after about 10 or 12 days your won't know (nor care very much) where you are. Slow down just a bit maybe 5 or 6 days in Paris, a week in London, 3 or 4 days in s few other cities with some 2 night stops in between.

You'll see a lot more, won't be exhausted halfway through the trip, and will even have time to do laundry a few times ;). In the cities with longer stays look for VRBO/airbnb/etc apartments -- lots more space, kitchen/kitchenette, an actual living room/lounge for the same or less money than tiny European hotel rooms.

Thank you for your input. I’ll definitely get a map so I can picture it better. I don’t even know BENELUX. I’m googling it soon.

No, skiing is not the only reason for the Swiss visit. Switzerland has always been in my bucket list so planning to stay a bit longer there compared to Germany. Most probably longer stay in France, Italy and Switzerland. England and Germany will just be short side trips.

Thank you.

Yes, unfortunately. I got us cheap tickets via Singapore Airlines. Thank you for your input

You listed lots of cities and countries but no real interests, other than skiing in Zermatt. (Does it have to be Zermatt?)

At this point, I would focus less on the order of travel and more on what exactly you most want to see and do on this trip. Hopefully, it doesn't include every single place you mentioned or include hours on trains every few days. If you haven't already been to Paris, London, Rome, those three (and travel times) could take up to half of your total days. BTW, you mentioned more specific places in France than any other country... is that an unconscious tip to your priorities?

Do you care much about where you are for Christmas? New Year's Eve/Day?

"Does it have to be Zermatt?" Of course it does! I myself have never skied outside New England and New York, and that was more than 50 years ago. Lots of skiers had their jackets emblazoned with souvenir patches from every mountain with a snow machine and from every little hill with a rope tow. I had only one patch: Zermatt.

You'll be going from low to high season during those seven weeks. How much is budget an issue? If budget matters Venice mid November is a fraction of high season prices. For example

The ski destinations will be high season. Nothing you can do about that.

I'd guess the Christmas markets in Germany will be high season prices.

There are easier/convenient groupings. Paris to London by train . Or Paris to Amsterdam by train. In addition you can hop around by air.

Why are you going to the Riviera mid winter? Even if it was mid summer your own home beaches are nicer.

You've got so much on your plate it could easily just turn into an expensive endurance test. Don't think about doing the most possible. Think about doing what you really want. Go home sane and agree to travel. Not stressed out and ready to curl into a ball

If you want things to visit over the Christmas period, all the museums in Amsterdam are open as normal, even on Christmas Day. Transport also runs fairly normally over that period, Unlike say in the UK where things grind to a halt for days.
Bear in mind in your planning perhaps.

winter in Europe is dark, wet and unpleasant a lot of the time. The continent drives on the RHS (I know crazy) and in the UK/Ireland on the LHS. Days are short and in a lot of places you need to have a plan B if you expected to go say walking and it is chucking it down.

I think you are just throwing darts blind at a dart board. I really don't think we can help you unless you give us a clue what you like to do. For instance do you like to stay in Spas, then focusing on Hungary would make a lot of sense. Skiing then regions around the Alps makes more sense. Obviously Climate Change means you want to be as high as possible as lower slopes will, as usual, suffer.

Thank you for your suggestions. I will plan 5 days in Paris as suggested then probably do Nice and/or Lyon and other areas. Do you have any suggestion as to where to stay overnight or 2 on the outskirts? London for a week as suggested. Do you have a recommendation on how long to stay in Italy? I would like to visit Rome, Venice, Florence, Milan. I would like to spend probably a week in Switzerland. Nothing is set yet.

No priorities on specific places really except for the famous sights/spots. We can come back for a more detailed trip to the not so famous touristy areas. Where do you suggest we should spend Christmas and New Year? I have no clue. Not really fuss.

see my post upthread

Would love an affordable accommodation, train fares and car hire but if it can’t be helped, I can still soldier on. I’d rather avoid airports as the weather can be unpredictable during winter and would like to avoid delays and cancellations hassle.

I’ve read the Riviera weather is much nicer compared to other places in Europe. It is cold but not freezing cold. We actually love the cold but not the freezing negative degrees cold. We will be there just to sightsee then leave straight away like move on to the next.

Good to know. I didn’t even consider holiday closures. Does other places in Europe have public transport holiday closure?

We are not really into spas. We are more on sightseeing, appreciate architecture, soaking the beauty of nature and visiting famous places - free and with fee. Yes, if weather won’t permit outdoor sightseeing then will do the indoor ones like the museums. We won’t be doing classes as well. I might consider going to a musical but not a priority. Apart from skiing in Zermatt, my kids want to watch a soccer game as well if there is any. I just don’t know where. Probably just 1 game.

Is there an app where it can forecast an almost accurate weather?

I recommend getting some guide books (Rick Steves's books are good to start with) to help figure out your priority locations. Besides being in a place that you've heard of, what do you actually want to do and see there? What are your family's interests? For example, does your family enjoy learning about history and visiting museums or do you prefer outdoor activities? Fortunately, you have lots of time to plan. Your son and daughter are old enough to assist with the planning. You might consider assigning everyone in the family a country or region to study to figure out your top visiting priorities.

The Riviera is more of a summer destination and is an unusual choice during the time you will be there. If you have no specific sights you wish to visit there, I would focus on other destinations.

Transportation can be a big expense, particularly for 4 people. Also, every time you move from place to place you also lose a fair amount of time. Winter weather can also delay train and bus travel, not just airlines: https://scrippsnews.com/stories/snow...central-europe.

Another thing to consider is lodging. Do you plan to stay in hotels or prefer apartment stays?

app weather accuracy. Most regions have good local weathers, even the UK has the BBC app which covers it well, similar exist across the continent. But obviously anywhere near the Atlantic will have more variability than those closer to the centre. So Portugal, Ireland and the UK just have poorer accuracy.

Of course this occurs also over time. So the UK weather really only works for the next 24 hours. (amazingly the BBC buys its weather reports from an Australian company)

Football; this is the season for football. Youll find it everywhere. But getting access to top level games is a bit harder as tickets are not just expensive but hard to obtain, with a lot of tickets sold to cover the whole season. Probably best to choose a target and then go on their website to see what is obtainable.

If I was doing this sort of holiday I would focus on southern countries. Even Italy now has Christmas markets in the north and near the German speaking parts of the country. So a focus on Sicily, southern Spain and then capitals such as Paris, Rome, London (not Madrid or most Swiss cities as they are high and so more likely to be cold), and Amsterdam (most of these you can use the train to get between them) (Rome requires a cheap airline. If skiing you will need insurance in case they have to helicopter you off the mountain side. You can buy this in daily chunks and realtively cheap.

So I might do, London, Paris, Amsterdam, fly to Rome, fly to Sicily

Do you have a priority for this trip? If so, figure out what is a priority and do that sooner in the trip rather than later.
How are you getting from place to place?

One thing certainly worth getting fixed early on is your Christmas and New Year plans. Price will be high, a lot of people go on holiday etc etc so firm that early in the planning. For instance you could leave Paris for Strasbourg for the holiday season. Medievel city centre, easy train access and getting closer to the Alps.

It is too far ahead to accurately predict the weather for next November through January but you can take a look at average temperatures, snowfall, etc. for the areas you are interested in visiting.

You could start in Paris. I would give yourselves 5 days at a minimum as you likely will need a few days to feel fully recovered from your long flight. You could then take the Eurostar to London. From London, a possibility is the Eurostar to Amsterdam, which is a charming city. That should get you started...

You can find out what the weather has been in the past at your selected destination during the time you plan to visit. Weather Underground is easy to use and has thorough data for most places in Europe I've searched including min/max temperatures and precipitation by the day, week or month.
https://www.wunderground.com/history

trouble is, epecially near the Atlantic and the Gulf Stream and under Climate Change history is no longer relevant

2 weeks ago it was 28C in the Western Alps when historically it should have been -5C

Portugal and Southern Spain had major forest fires last summer, which were not there historically

Benelux is the (official) shorthand for BElgium - NEtherlands - LUXembourg. These three little countries are squished together in the same corner of Europe and have a lot in common. They also share some resources (for instance there is a single Australian embassy for both Belgium and Luxembourg; NL and BE share a single online electronic personal identity verifying system, "itsme", lots of the shops cross the borders, so the Dutch Albert Heijn supermarket can also be found in parts of Belgium, likewise with the department store HEMA, and so on). None of these things affect you particularly as a tourist, but all this just speaks to how close relations the three countries keep.

Lavandula

I have taken 6 solo trips to Europe in my adult life. Each trip was taking 8 to 10 days off of work (work is closed weekends and 6 US holidays). I only went to one country per trip except for when I went to parts of the Netherlands and Belgium in the same trip. What are the 3 or 4 countries you want to go to? Would you like to start with a big city, make a list of what you want to do there, then see how many days nights in that city you will need. Then see which other towns in that country you want to go to, make a list of what you want to see in those towns, look at google maps, see how you could travel efficiently between towns without backtracking. Then is there another town in that country you want to see of do you want to move on to planning the next country, and so on. if you are flying to and from Paris, you will want to immediately travel to your farthest city first, then work your way back to Paris ; maybe from Paris go right to Rome, then after Italy, Germany, Switzerland or Netherlands or Belgium, then towns in France, then Paris would be your last city.

You can check historical weather for cities on TimeandDate website. For fantastic info on trains see the Seat61 website. Rome2rio will give you an idea of options to get from A to B but make sure you check on local train or bus websites to make sure it's accurate.

As mentioned, no public transport on Christmas Day in London, almost nothing Boxing Day. Also accommodation in London is very expensive - particularly against our Aussie $$ - don’t leave booking too late. The big museums in London are free and good if there's bad weather. You'll have short daylight hours, it was dark by 4pm when we worked over there. It felt quite strange.

We had a week over Christmas in Nice one year, another year a week in Strasbourg. Nice was sunny and cool, Strasbourg was horribly cold. Obviously each year will be different.

Your question about how long in Italy, you could spend days there or the entire trip. If you just want to see a few main cities, 4 nights would give you 3 days. it will give you a taste of each place.

ok, got it. No public transport in London over Christmas and boxing day ( Dec 25 and 26) and I assume on New Year’s day ( Jan 1) as well, right? Is it the same in Italy?

I will keep these suggestions in mind. Thank you.

I’ve learned something new without googling it. Thank you.

Thank you for your insights.

Climate change is affecting our weather significantly.

No it'll be a holiday schedule. Basically like most other Sundays.

No - New Years is fine. The transport in London basically shuts down late Christmas Eve and resumes partially on Boxing Day. Also museums and such will be closed on Christmas Day and fewer will be closed Jan 1st. You will definitely want to pre-book Christmas lunch/dinner - and far ahead for some venues.

The problem with NY Eve/Day: there is a big NY Eve fireworks show along the river near Westminster and a large section of central London is fenced off for ticket holders, then NY Day there is a parade which does cause crowded public transport/congestion.

was posting the same time as Traveler_Nick