I should clarify. I was commenting on Italy

Oh -- we weren't posting about the same thing at all :)

Oh, I’m not familiar with Sundays? Does public transport have lesser running times on Sundays?

Are you asking about London or Italy???

Thank you for this info.

Before discussing all kinds of details, it might be a good idea to tell us something about your interests and priorities.

Are you interested in History, archeology, medieval bulidings, castles, art galleries, technical museums, open air museums, ethnographc museums, concerts, theatre and opera performances, modern architecture, nature and outdoor things, caves, gorges, stunnning landscapes, glaciers, alpine peaks, fun parks, winter sports, battlefields, top restaurtant, panoramic touristic trains.............?

You can then define the places you plan to visit according to your priorities.

Many people don't go to work . Kids don't go to school. So ya they reduce the number of buses and trains.

I guess you don't do public transport much. Even in Sydney all the public transport has a timetable that is different for Sundays and public holidays (fewer services), so you have to plan your trip better if travelling on a Sunday. It's the same deal in most of Europe. In many countries you will also find shops are shut on a Sunday (Germany for instance), although you will often find that restaurants are open. In some places museums, galleries, etc are closed on a Monday, so do your planning carefully. Your plans are too high-level so far to be able to task about specifics here, but if you get a good guide book you will find all this sort of nuts and bolts stuff will be covered.

Lavandula

Looking at guidebooks should help you figure out which places appeal to you most. Try the library, op shops, or a bookshop. Older guidebooks are fine, hotels and restaurants come and go but the main attractions, layout of the city, public transport etc will be the same.

Generally, whole of Europe. Thank you.

Yes, unfortunately not familiar with public transport much. I will keep that in mind. Thank you.

What I’m doing is scouting Instagram for the Europe tour as well. I will need to collate everything.

Thank you.

Will do. Once, I’ve mapped out my itinerary then I’ll ask help for specifics. I will have to work out with the numbers of days of stay in one area then once, I have it, I will update the group of it and ask for opinions.

Thank you.

Wouldn't your itinerary reflect your interests?
Me, I wouldn't plan a trip to Kosovo or East Timor or Tajikistan, and once I had flights and hotels lined up, ask if any of my interests would be satisfied there.
Just because you're not going there, but rather Europe, doesn't change the point. IMHO, there's a profound difference between France and Slovakia.
There are some "dull" areas of Germany and France, not to mention Switzerland, UK and?

LOL…I will map out the countries/cities/regions that interest me then see what places to see there. The number of places to see will reflect the number of days we will be spending there.

Very exciting trip; I am jealous. There are a few things you need to figure out. Longest I did europe has been 3 weeks this past Nov - Dec for Christmas markets.

1) Do you want to see the big cities or are you also interested in small ones? This forum loves villages, for example, but I say for a 1st time trip to Europe, focus on the large cities. There are plenty of those for 50 days.

2) Duration per place. You will be tempted to stay in some cities for a night or 2 to maximize the number of places you see. Don't. Never plan less than 3 nights and up to 5 or 6 nights. You can have day trips if you want. This will reduce waiting time on travel, hotel and luggage and will also allow you to rest.

3) Make sure you schedule rest or very light days in between. I would say every week or so you should have a lazy day to rest. Otherwise you will be so tired and won't enjoy or be in shape for latter part of the trip.

4) Make a list of all the cities you may want to visit. Prioritize them in order of importance and assign a duration for each. Then figure out how to get between them.

5) Transportation. Figure out if car or train is cheaper. In winter you may not want to drive in some spots. Also look into Train passes as they should save you money given they are made for long trips like yours.

5) Are you interested in Christmas markets? If not skip Germany. If yes then Germany becomes an option. Strasbourg and Vienna are amazing cities and second to none during Christmas markets. In Germany itself I have been to Heidelberg (awesome but small) and Nuremberg which had a great market but city was not worth visiting over other larger cities.

Here are the list of places I would recommend.

France:
1) Paris (my fav city as I speak French, love the food and the city is beautiful) is a must and I would say 5 nights minimum. You could spend a couple weeks just going from tourist to tourist spot. Take a day trip to Versaille which is worth it.
2) Strasbourg is great for the Chrismas market as I mentioned but also a very beautiful city. These are the only cities I have been to in France. Riviera in winter is weird IMO as it is a summer destination. English is common in all service places so no worries.

Italy:
1) Venice: people would say 2 nights but I disagree. I think 3 nights as you could get lost in it for weeks. The most magical city in Europe and there is nothing else like it. This is a must do.
2) Florence: 3 nights if you are into museums otherwise 2 nights is enough. You can do a day trip into Tuscany for the 3rd. I think it's a beautiful city but a bit overrated. People love it though.
3) Rome: I have never been to it but it's a must. I have been doing research as it's on my to do list and 4 nights is probably good and the minimum.

I don't think Milan is worth it based on research and talking to others only. Never been anywhere else but I would say south would have better weather but not sure worth it either. Naples and Sicily are the attraction but too far. Surprisingly English is not as common in Italy as the other major tourist countries but you will be ok.

Austria:
1) Vienna is a magical city. So beautiful and white and clean. Also some nice day trips from it. On top of that it is a great Christmas market city. Been to like 9 of them and did not see all of them. Should be on your list.
2) Salzburg is a beautiful small town. Probably the smallest city I would recommend. It is 2.5 hours by train from Vienna and borders Germany if going there. English is common

Belgium:
1) Brussels does not have a lot of fans around here but I loved it. Such a vibrant city. The Christmas market (Belgium not famous for them) had a great atmosphere.
2) Bruges is a big favourite here but I was disappointed. The Christmas market was tiny and clearly more a tourist thing than a real tradition. It can just be a day trip from Brussels. Pretty town but I think it is overrated. I visited in winter only. Amazing restaurants though! English is common

Prague: you did not mention this but it is another magical city. It is extremely touristy but for a reason. Been here in summer and winter and it's always great. It has a Christmas market but it's nothing special. This is the second "city frozen in time" IMO after Venice. Really worth it and is about 4 hours by train from Vienna. You could also take a day trip to Dresden which is 2.5 hours by train. It is a beautiful city and has a good Christmas market. 3 nights and add a 4th if visiting Dreden. Cheapest city among the large touristy ones so that helps. English is spoken everywhere.

Amsterdam: Beautiful city with lots of museums and it's just nice to walk. I would say 3 nights and is 3 hours by train from Brussels. Everyone speaks English.

I am planning to Visit Lisbon and Madrid this summer so I researched them and they are beautiful. They are all the rage with my friends lately. The weather will be better as they are south. I was told 3 and 4 nights respectively. I don't plan to visit Barcelona but I have a friend who has traveled all over Europe and Barcelona is her favourite city.

I have never been to London but my wife loved it. There are also several Premiere league clubs there so a good chance to watch a soccer/football match. Your kid probably watches EPL due to language and it is the best league in the world.

The above should be more than enough for 50 days. They also represent most of the largest and most beautiful/popular cities and capitals in Europe.

As others have said look up these places on a map to get idea of the route you could take and then just Google train and car times. If you plan it right you should not spend more than 4 hours on a train. Anymore than that is too long and look at planes or other places.

One last thing; layer and dress warm. It is going to rain and snow in spots. It hit -10 (coldest) in Virnna while I was there. The rest were mostly 0-5 and up to 9-10 a couple days. This is excluding Italy as was there in summer only.

Hope this helps. Have fun!

Wow!!! Thank you so much for the detailed insights. It will surely help me a lot in my planning.

The longest that we have travelled was 4weeks and so this is a milestone for us for my big 50. Big trip for the big number. 😉

This is an excellent point. Usually one decides on things and/or places they want to see, which ones have priority and how long that will take. Then they plan an itinerary based on the places they wish to see.

We've had quite a few threads recently, this one included, where the OPs just jump the gun and buy flights without first figuring if it makes sense or if they even want to go around where they booked (the recent person who bought RT out of Bulgaria comes to mind here, too). I will never understand that.

With that having been said and while I do not have any advice for the OP of this thread that has not already been given. I look forward to your updates once you've spent time fine tuning and paring down.

Yes, it could be frustrating for some but for us, all of our International and domestic travels are like that and it works well.

To me it's the opposite. So many threads people start to get ideas about places they don't know because they don't know. Most people who respond just ask OP for what they want to do. Sometimes people don't know and are looking for ideas which is the point of such threads.

Last few years I mostly travel to Europe on points (business class) and sometimes I let the business class availability decide my destinations. Have had great trips every time and to some places that I was not aware of or not on top of my list. Never a regret.

Usually you have a vague idea of your interests.

If you like art for example you might pick Madrid over Seville . You might pick Barcelona if you like Picasso.

Something you'll see is people going to Florence and then complaining they don't like art. Well it's too late after you've booked.

Right. Exactly. There is a lot of "what should we do?" If one has no clue what to see...Why are they going if dont have at least some idea as to the "why" behind it? I realize some are overwhelmed, and maybe even this OP as well. And some cities come up a lot in itineraries such as Zurich and even Frankfurt. Recognizable names, but... not exactly the "better" of cities in both their respective countries in terms of landmarks. And had one read a bit before booking, they might have not even given them a second thought and instead decide Lucern or Munich is more their interest.

we are certainly getting more two city or multiple city trips in very short times, almost like a game. Tik Tok perhaps?

If TikTok and Insta (and, sadly, The Amazing Race) are your only "exposures" to foreign destinations (as opposed to old-school travel guides, articles, etc.), your idea of visiting these places can be reduced to hitting a few iconic sights, taking selfies and moving on. People can travel (and spend their money) however they like, but the lack of research based on interests and logistics can be surprising... at least to me. I just value my travel time and budget differently.

I mentioned something similar on another thread. And I have to wonder if people see a short reel on social media - which are often 90 seconds or less - and they think they can do it, too (that the trip was a whirlwind). Those reels do not explain the logistics behind the point to point, nor do they explain the research the social media person did behind it, if they did any.

And with more and more people using AI (and someone even said it was "efficient") for itinerary planning, I only think we're going to see more of posts like these.

And, so often they have made up their mind and post their itineraries accordingly. Feedback is sometimes seen as negative and critical rather than as it is intended, which is constructive. And I admit I wonder if they are truly seeking help or if it is for another reason (validation? confirmation?).Which I guess may make some sense - only project the positive on social media, why wouldn't that need to happen on a travel forum that existed well before MySpace be any different, too (not to mention that the guidebooks have been around for several decades).

I guess maybe now we say, "Your trip. You do you."

ok, I ski a lot and I would scratch that whole "ski for a day" thing out of the itinerary. First, if that is a big deal, that implies that you ski a lot at home and then just have to try Zermatt to say you've been there. If so, you can ski at home and it isn't worth the time/trouble and expense to do that for one day. I know the ski resorts in Australia aren't near Adelaide (Thredbo is the biggest, I think), but you can be doing a few days or week there easily as it's not a long drive from Canberra which is a short flight from Adelaide. Of course your seasons are reversed so you don't ski in our winter, but have you thought about all the ski gear you will have to pack just for this one day? I don't mean skis/boots/helmet as you can rent those, but actual clothing? I guess you can use a ski parka for a winter coat and base layer alway6s comes in handy, what about pants, but still. And the lift and ski equipment for the day will cost probably about 50-75 euro each (or 150 euro total maybe) per person.

I just don't think that would be worth it myself. If your kids don't actually ski at all and just think it would be cool to say they skied Zermatt for a day, I wouldn't do that, either. Because then you'd have no proper ski clothing. I'm kind of picky about that, maybe you aren't. I mean I have ski gloves I wouldn't wear walking around in Winter, and various masks/balaclava, etc. I would never wear my ski parks around as a regular jacket, and you do need special ski pants. And you can't ski without lessons.

Ski resorts are extremely expensive during the holidays, also. I don't know if you plan to stay in Zermatt for that one day trip or visit it from another location as a day trip. I didn't think that was possible, but really don't know. I know it is too far by train from Zurich or Geneva by train (3-4 hrs one way). Zermatt itself is car-free.

My family lived in Germany in the 1990s and recall perilous long drives through the Swiss Alps in the winter. We also spent a week in Zermatt, which was beautiful but isolating because cars aren’t allowed. Consider the challenge of driving the Alps in the winter when you map your route.

It appears that Paris, Lyon, Annecy, Chamonix, Strasbourg and Alsace villages, and the neighboring German villages are a possibility, especially at Christmas time.

Since you’ve included many different countries on different continents perhaps you should think of boat/ferries as well. As others have said there really is no right or wrong way regarding traveling through Europe but I too would get a large paper map so you can have some sort of physical perspective of how it’ll look on paper. Pun intended. Good luck!

Ski in Europe!
 

On the skiing front, I'd like to add that France really is the best destination for European skiing- it has some of the cheapest packages for ski lifts, the largest resorts, the cheapest resorts, the best snowfall, and the highest pistes.

Not everybody who goes skiing in Europe does downhill. Many prefer cross country, or Nordic style skiing which, even though it’s more full body intensive, is less dangerous than downhill. I’d also disagree with the “France has the best European skiing”. That’s a broad and incorrect statement. Highest pistes? Not really. Zermatt/ Matterhorn is the highest and has the largest height differences overall. France does have a couple in the top ten but your statement is incorrect.

My statement isn't incorrect. France has the most ski resort in official european rankings, and the best snowfall in most Alpine resorts compared to the increasingly terrible ski conditions in the Pyrenees, and even Switzerland and Italy.

It's been a while since the last posting on this thread and I'm assuming the OP is doing the homework on this wonderful trip. I've been planning a 45-day trip to the BENELUX area for the last few months, with the wonderful help of Fodor posters. Here are my two-cents on planning.

We didn't book anything, until we had a good outline of time and place for our trip. Since we usually book open-jaw flights from the US, that was an understanding from the beginning. But from where to where was in the details. In most of our past travels to Europe, we were on a timeframe with only 2-1/2 weeks' vacation time available. Now we have the luxury of time, but not the knees of youth, so our planning is more relaxed to try to enjoy the areas we're visiting. Our trip in June is 12 days in Netherlands (9 in Amsterdam & 3 in Rotterdam), 11 nights in Brussels, 11 nights in England and the remaining time on a cruise. Our schedule has many day trips outside of the main cities, and I'm hoping we left enough time for the actual cities themselves. Schlepping luggage is exhausting. We've also had to plan for down days / laundry days. Our original plan was only 5 nights in Brussels, but we found many interesting day trips that were worth exploring, but not necessarily packing and moving our luggage to spend a night or two.

Regarding whether or not to go to Zermatt, I agree that bringing the ski gear is too much, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do a 2 night trip to the lovely town and rent the gear. We drove there (in the summer) for lunch from our stay in Lucerne. As we also went to Capri off the cost of Naples for lunch to enjoy the town (however, we had been there several times before). Don't be afraid to do day trips. But picking up and leaving for a new stay in a new town for many 2-night trips, may not be as appealing as possibly figuring out day trips within the area. Salzburg is a magical city and Innsbruck is a daytrip away. There are many day trips from Munich that might interest your whole family. London will have a lot to keep everyone entertained for at least 5 days, possibly 10 days if you plan day trips and maybe visits to Cambridge, Oxford, Canterbury and Dover.

It might be interesting to let each family member plan a different location and see how logistics factor into the feasibility of the trip. Planning is half the fun.

Update of the planning
 

Just to update everyone. After much thought and consideration, these are our planned itinerary:

Arriving Nov 20 at CDG then fly straight to Heathrow
Drive to Oxford Nov 20-22
Return car rental in London Nov 22-25
Uber to LCY City Airport to Amsterdam Nov 25-28
Train to Gent Nov 28-Dec 1
Train to Luxembourg Dec 1-2
Train to Frankfurt Dec 2-4
Train to Lucern Dec 4-6
Train to Lauterbraunnen Dec 6-10
Train to Zermatt Dec 10-12
Train to St Moritz Dec 12-13
Train to Milan Dec 13-17 (booked accommodation near Milano Central) Will be spending my 50th birthday here. Any suggestions is much appreciated?
Train to Venice Dec 17-19 (worried about aqua valta)
Train to Florence Dec 19-22
Train to Rome Dec 22-27 (any suggestions where to eat for Christmas eve and how to spend it and Christmas day as well?)
Train to Naples Dec 27-30 (planning to hire a car to explore? We are a family of 5 with adult children and 4 of us can drive internationally.)
Fly to Nice Dec 30-Jan 3 ( any suggestions of how to spend New Year’s eve and day?)
Fly to Paris Jan 3-11
Jan 11 flying back to Adelaide to work hard again to save up for another trip😁

Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.

Thank you for your input in the planning.

OK -- you are counting the same days in two different places so you have less time than you think just about everywhere.

what you actually have is:
• Arriving Nov 20 at CDG fly straight to Heathrow - Drive to Oxford Nov 20-21This is a truly terrible idea BTW. You are flying from OZ to Paris and then on to LHR and then driving to Oxford. There is an express coach from LHR to Oxford . . . MUCH safer than driving with jet lag/exhaustion. With such a short time in Oxford you will have no need for a car. And there is a fast train from Oxford > London. Total time in Oxford - part of one day

• London Nov 22-24 / 2.5 days

• Uber to Nov 25 LCY City Airport to Amsterdam. Amsterdam Nov 25-27. 2.5 days (Uber from central London to LCY will cost a fortune. You can easily take public transport)

• Train to Gent Nov 28. Gent Nov 28--30. 2.5+ days

• Train to Luxembourg. Luxembourg Dec 1 = Part of one day

• Train to Frankfurt. Frankfurt Dec 2-3 = 1.5 days

• Train to Lucern Dec 4-5. Lucern = 1.5 days

• Train to Lauterbraunnen Dec 6, Lauterbraunnen Dec 6-9 / 3+ days

• Train to Zermatt. Zermatt Dec 10-11 = 1+ days

• Train to St Moritz Dec 12 less than one full day

• Train to Milan. Milan Dec 13-16 = 3.5 days

• Train to Venice Dec 17. Venice Dec 17-18 - 1.5 days

• Train to Florence Dec 19. Florence Dec 19 - 21 = 2.5 days

• Train to Rome Dec 22. Rome Dec 22-26 = 4.5 days

• Train to Naples Dec 27. Naples Dec 27-29 = 2.5 days

• Fly to Nice Dec 30. Nice Dec 30-Jan 2 = 3 full days

• Fly to Paris Jan 3. Paris 3-10Jan

• 11 fly back to Adelaide

You must REALLY love trains!!!

hahaha!!! Yes, this is our mini European sprint tour aka European amazing race.😂

On the 20th of Nov, we will be arriving in Oxford around 1:30pm with the car hire as we are planning to drive to Stonehedge, Bath and Cotswold on the 21st then drive to Cambridge on the 22nd before heading to London and planning to return the rental car in London at around 10pm. Seems like jetlag is a foreign word for us.🤣

I’ve put in our destination from Pilgrim, Southwark to the London City Airport and Uber X cost around GBP28.95 and if the cost changes, I’m hoping it would be less than GBP50. I think the cost of that, considering there is 4 of us and the convenience because of the luggages, is not too bad.

I’m thinking that it is going to be crowded in the tube at 8am with all our luggages.

Am I wrong? Still weighing all the options.

OK -- frankly this is insanity. There us simply no way you can possibly collect a car from LHR, drive to Stonehedge Stonehenge, visit the stones, drive to/through Bath, see any of the Cotswolds, and arrive in Oxford by 1:30PM. You would be very lucky to get to Oxford by dinner time. Just the basic drive (without getting out of the car once or actually seeing anything) from say LHR > Stonehenge > Bath > Bibury > Bourton-on-th-Water > Burford > Oxford will take at least six hours. If you include actually seeing anything including Stonehenge which is a minimum 1 hour stop by itself, finding parking in Bath or parking outside of town and using a park-n-Ride lot, seeing anything in Bath (none of the sites can be seen from a car) and a short drive through Bibury/Bourton/Burford (merely driving through and not getting out of the car) makes this a minimum 10 hour day w/o seeing any of Oxford.

THEN you plan on driving to Cambridge the next day!

Where do you plan on dropping a car in London at 10PM? Only LHR and LGW will be open at that time of night.

Pligrim what in Southwark?? I suspect you mean Suites By Rehoboth which is not at all a convenient place to stay or get to. It is more the half a mile south of Borough Station and a mile south of London Bridge Station. If it isn't Suites By Rehoboth then I have no idea . . .

Hi. I think there is some kind of misunderstanding.

On Nov 20, we will just be exploring Oxford by bus on that day since we just have the afternoon and park the car in the apartment. It has its own private parking.

On Nov 21, that is the day we will be driving around and will be heading out early as well. I’m planning to catch the first time slot at Stonehedge. Then go back to Oxford to sleep and rest.

On Nov 22, we will check out early to be able to drive to Cambridge before heading to London.

Avis has a facility where you can drop off the car then just drop the key in a safe drop box. When I checked the booking, the address is 88 Eversholt St, Euston,London,GB. I haven’t booked anything yet. I just checked if it is possible and fortunately, it is. I checked the map as well and it is a 20min bus ride to our accommodation.

Our accommodation is The Mount. The address is Pilgrim, SE1 4UP ( or could be SEI 4UP), London. It is near The Shard.

How is the tube at around 8:30am? Our flight on Nov 25 is 1:05pm at the London City airport. I’m not too sure if it is ok to leave after the rush hour so it is not that crowded in the tube and still make it before the bag drop off counter closes. Is it best to take the train ( there’s 4 of us) or take the Uber X?

Thank you.