German Rail Pass or ???
 

I need help determining which would be the best for me - point to point tickets or a rail pass. I want to visit 5 villages/cities in Germany and a small village south of Interlaken, Switzerland. I'm having trouble with the rail Europe website. Also, when I try to research it I get the message that Staufen, Germany is not accessible by rail, but I know from Rick Steves that it is. So . . . . I am confused and need help.

I'm not a railpass expert, so my only recommendation is to look at the German RR website www.bahn.de. There are a variety of countrywide or regional passes available that may be good for your needs.

The raileurope site does NOT show all trains. The German rail site above is the best place to look. Check www.railsaver.com to see if a pass makes sense with your itinerary.

~Liz

We can't help you with p2p decisions unless you provide the names of your destinations. Also: are you traveling alone? Do you have specific travel dates?

You should ditch the Rail Europe site as a source of information. Here's a direct link to the German railways scheduling info (but it won't provide complete price info.)

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

This is my planned itinerary:
Frankfurt airport to Bacharach
Bacharach to Cochem
Cochem to Staufen
Staufen to Interlaken, SW
Interlaken to Luzern
Luzern to Rothenburg ob du Tauber
Rothenburg to Frankfurt

Thank you for any help you can give.
I am a 65 year old recent widow. I have traveled to these places many times with my husband. He was the driver and I was the navigator. This will be my first solo trip and my first time to utilize train travel. That is why I am somewhat nervous and hesitant in figuring all this out.

It is possible to get P2P tickets for this trip for about $200. But it depends on your travel dates (which you haven't provided) as the advance-sale tickets at the German Railways site are likely to be available only if you purchase them in a timely way. They go on sale 92 days in advance, and that's when they should be bought in order to get a great deal. The following prices are based on getting the advance-purchase price for the longer train rides.

FRA - Bacharach: 10.50 Eur (reg. price, RMV ticket machine at airport)

Bachar - Cochem: 17.40 Eur (reg. price. DB ticket machine)

Coche - Staufen: 32.60 Eur (adv. online purchase from DB site, Sparpreis ticket for Cochem to Freiburg at 29 Euros + 3.60 reg. ticket from machine for Freiburg - Staufen)

DB site: http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

Staufen - Basel: FREE (you get free travel on a Konus card from your hosts in Staufen for this stretch and the Black Forest region.)

Basel - Interlaken: 28 CHF
Interlake - Luzern: 15.50 CHF

Luzern - Rothenburg: 39 Euros, Europa-Spezial Schweiz advance purchase from DB site

Rothenburg - FRA: 19 Euros, advance-sale Sparpreis ticket from DB site

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

That's 118.50 Euros ($169) and 43.5 CHF ($52) for $221 total at current exchange rates.

Feel free to post your travel dates for more accurate price help or to ask questions.

Bless your heart, Russ. You went "above and beyond" in answering my question.

This is my planned itinerary:

Frankfurt airport to Bacharach 9/14/11
Bacharach to Cochem 9/16/11
Cochem to Staufen 9/19
Staufen to Interlaken, SW 9/21
Interlaken to Luzern 9/24
Luzern to Rothenburg ob du Tauber 9/26
Rothenburg to Frankfurt 9/28
Frankfurt to airport 9/29 (I just added this one)

Also, is there any place other than Frankfurt (city)I could stay on 9/28 that would give me easy, quick and direct access to the airport for a 10:30 a.m. flight?

OK, well your question comes at a good time for picking up the cheap tickets. This will require some work and organization but you'll save a lot of $ over the cost of a railpass.

Frankfurt airport to Bacharach 9/14/11:

There are 2 FRA airport train stations. Go to the "Regionalbahnhof." The RMV ticket machine will sell you the 10.50 ticket.

Bacharach to Cochem 9/16/11:

You can buy this ticket at the FRA station (specify travel on the 16th, of course) or the Bacharach station.

Cochem to Freiburg 9/19: Buy this one at the DB site TOMORROW, 92 days in advance, for the best price and choice of departure times. Pay close attention to the conditions for use/refund. If you get it for 29 Euros, you'll save more than 40 Euros over the price of a regular Cochem-to-Staufen ticket.

Station names:

Cochem(Mosel)
Freiburg(Breisgau) Hbf

Freiburg to Staufen 9/19: Buy the 3.60 ticket from a regional machine in the Freiburg station.


Staufen to Interlaken, SW 9/21: Ask your Staufen host for the Konus card if it isn't offered immediately upon check in. Details here:

http://www.blackforest-tourism.com/konus

You can check the Basel-Interlaken fare of 28 CHF at www.sbb.ch ; that should be the regular price available anytime, but you can peruse that site to see if there's a better price available.

Interlaken to Luzern 9/24: (also check www.sbb.ch )

Luzern to Rothenburg ob du Tauber 9/26: again, purchase at the DB site, a week from tomorrow on 6/23, the first day available.

Rothenburg to Frankfurt 9/28: also at the DB site; purchase in advance on 6/25 for the best price. Maybe go to Mainz instead of Frankfurt...

For a final night in Germany, I usually recommend Mainz, which has a pleasant Marktplatz with outdoor dining, a nice old town area, and car-free shopping area, all located near the Dom. It's about 25 minutes from Mainz to FRA, 3.90 Euros, on the S-Bahn or the RE train. The Mainz Ibis is very near the Mainz Römisches Theater train station (so named because of the Roman theater being unearthed at the rear platform); it's also closer to the old town than the hotels near the main station (Mainz Hbf) but the Hbf station has more hotel choices. Both areas are generally safe places to overnight.

If you stay near Mainz Hbf, there are buses that will take you down to the Dom, #'s 55, 61, 63, maybe others too. Get off at the Höfchen/Listmann stop and you're almost there.

If you stay at the Ibis and want to reach the old town, walk down Neutorstrasse which turns into Augustinerstrasse, the main old town artery.

Make sure you keep your tickets purchased in advance in a safe spot (like a waist belt) throughout your trip.

Best wishes for an enjoyable trip.

Russ: I went online to try to purchase the ticket from Cochem to Freiburg on the DB website today, but ran into some problems. First of all there were 3 different possibilities for Cochem: Cochem (Mosel), Cochem (Mosel)KD and Cochem Bahnhof. I know this is a small village, so was a little confused as to how there could be three possibilities and which to choose. So, anyway I chose the first one, and a departure time, but was never able to follow the link through to allow purchase. I am sorry to be such a bother, but if you can help me with this I would be so grateful.

Thanks, Joy

Either Cochem(Mosel) or Cochem Bahnhof will work.

For towns of any size there are often numerous stops listed at the DB site. These stops include include common destinations (like the KD boat docks) for which you must walk or proceed by bus after leaving the train and alternative names for stations (like "Cochem Bahnhof".) In larger cities, the stop choices include suburban stations.


When you tried to purchase, you probably got this message:

"Sale possible 92 days in advance at earliest"

That's because I goofed and mistakenly used 9/16 for your travel date when I tested it myself. You have to wait a little longer. Sorry. You should try again on Sunday afternoon, when the clock strikes midnight in Germany. I believe that this error messed up the two other dates I gave you for the other two advance-purchase tickets as well. You should recheck that 92-day window for both.

Again, make sure you read the conditions of sale for the cheap advance sale tickets. They have worked great for me in the past and saved me lots of $. This spring, I got from Bacharach to the northern Black Forest town of Bad Liebenzell for 19 Euros, and from Stuttgart to Zürich for the same price. Regular tickets would have cost 100 Euros. But I'm the sort of traveler who plans his time and doesn't mind keeping an exact schedule. There are fees for changing your departure time or itinerary, and you lose out if you change your mind at the last minute or miss your train at some point, meaning you'll need to buy an additional, more expensive ticket.

There's also a chance that the price you pay for the adv. sale tickets is higher if the very cheapest seats should sell out before you've made your purchase.

If you sense that getting or using these tickets will be too much trouble, you can always opt for the more expensive railpass. There's currently a small discount on the 5-day German railpass - $273 - which would take care of almost all your German routes. In Switzerland you'd pay 43.50 for Basel-Interlaken-Luzern and the same going back into Germany (some itineraries for Rothenburg take you back through Basel anyway) so add $100, meaning a total price of $373, about $150 more than buying individual tickets at the best prices. But for this price you do get more convenience and more piece of mind - there's less computer angst, more flexibility when you travel should you miss a train or want to stay somewhere longer, no need to purchase tickets as you go (within Germany anyway.) Railpasses are more forgiving of error and allow you to make extra trips, should you want to, on any particular railpass day. So if you got to Bacharach, checked in, and were ready for adventure, you could hop on another train that same day to see another village.

Anyway, you have a couple of days to mull this over now and decide what's best for you.

To clarify: I said, "There's currently a small discount on the 5-day German railpass - $273 - which would take care of almost all your German routes."

The price is $273 - not the discount. This special is explained and available here:

http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/germany.cfm

If you want fully flexible unfettered travel to just hop on any train anytime you want in Germany then the German Railpass is often a great deal as full fares can be really steep - check out www.bahn.de to see what say Swiss border to Frankfurt is full fare - of course you have the online advance discounts and things like the Lander or regional passes but these tickets all have restrictions like being train specific - you must decide often weeks in advance to get the cheaper tickets about the exact train you wish to take and cannot change it and in the case of Lander tickets you cannot travel on the fastest trains - so if you want the easiest way look strongly at the pass and IME of traveling for years on German trains any single 65-yr old traveler should definitely go first class - where you will always IME find lots of empty seats so you can easily stow your baggage on an empty seat next to you, etc. And the pass compared to first class tickets is even a greater deal - just hop on any train anytime - just go to the station and hop on any of zillions of trains - anyway for lots on German rail travel and passes and Lander tickets, etc check out these fantastic IMO web sites - www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com. And again www.bahn.de the official German State Railways web site for schedules and to compare fares at the station in Germany and online advance discounts with restrictions. The pass would take you to the Swiss border and then just buy regular tickets to your limited Swiss destinations.

the German Pass special, which is not unique to ricksteves.com I think but offered by ACP Rail, wholesalers or German Passes in North America, ends July 11, 2011 so if buying buy before that date - but apparently only applied to 5- and 10-day passes and not the 6-, 7-, 8-, 9-day passes in between the may better comport to some folks needs - perhaps my quick read missed something but thanks to Russ for bringing that to light.

And OP should also investigate the Germany-Switzerland railpass though it is more expensive per day would cover all train trips and either pass - German or German-Swiss would also cover boats - K-d boats on the Rhine in Bacharach area and between Koblenz and Cochem on the Mosel - including a stop at Moselkern for visiting Burg Eltz, one of Germany's most famous and awesome castles, hovering high above the Mosel gorge in a sylvan setting. Trains also stop at Moselkern, just a few miles downstream on the Mosel from Cochem, fairytale Cochem, the type of town most Americans only dream about staying in but never get off the beaten track of huge mega tourist cities to actually do so! Great choice as is Bacharach!

OP has six days of rail travel inside Germany - a 6-day German Pass (without discount Russ mentions above) costs $322 for a solo adult traveler - that is $54 a day or about 35 euros a day - for totally flexible unlimited travel in all of Germany - not just one district and no restrictions - just hop on - for a single traveler I do not see how this can be beat IF one desires flexibility to hop any train anytime - with the discounted train-specific tickets you must be at the station at the exact time - if you are like me and prefer to leisurely pack up in my hotel and head to station and catch the next of the usually twice-hourly trains this can be priceless. And again the pass covers K-D boats on the Rhine, another plus.

and if more travel days were figured in the extra day on the pass above the 5-day minimum in 2nd class is only $29 or about 20 euros a day for unlimited at will hopping trains in all of Germany - 20 euros a day.

To PalenQ - Thank you for your help. I still have not decided which to do, point to point or rail pass. But I have lots more information to help me make an intelligent decision.

And, Bacharach has been a favorite village ever since our first European adventure in 1994. I have been there so many times and know exactly where I will stay (If she has a room, and I'm sure she will).

My husband and I never stayed in Cochem, but we stopped there many times. We have stayed in Beilstein, which I love, but the train does not go there. We stayed in Beilstein on our last trip, rented bikes and rode to Cochem. This time I hope to rent a bike in Cochem and ride to Beilstein. Have also stayed in Zell several times and Bernkastel-Keuz.

nanof4 - I am too a denizen of the Mosel, having biked up and down the valley between Trier and Koblenz several times - Beilstein is cute but small and quiet - Cochem is cute but in season a vacation hub - especially popular it seems with the Dutch who come here to see hills one told me. There are frequent buses Cochem to Beilstein and in season boats as well but biking is fine if the weather is and even in summer the weather here IME can be cool and blustery.

I think with OP's itinerary and tickets the key factor is whether he/she desires flexibility or not to just show up at the station and hop any train (or K-d Rhine/Mosel boat though a few of these do not accept the pass) - if you can live with restrictions that come with the discounts - like on long-distance trains being train-specific and non-changeable nor refundable I believe then for your itinerary that would be the best, along with Lander Passes, though again you are restricted from using the fastest trains, which also are IME the most comfy ones - regional trains IME can be really crowded at times.

PalenQ -- I too like the Mosel for biking.... funny you should mention the Dutch liking Cochem -- it seems a Dutch couple bought the Hotel Brauer in Treis-Karden (in Karden) where I've stayed several times. I think it had been in the Brauer family since 1792. I'll be there again in early October; reasonable bike rental in Karden, so I hope weather cooperates.

nanaof4 -- I love solo/train travel in Germany; it is so easy, especially with a railpass. Have a wonderful time! Report back afterwards -- would love to hear how it went.

nanao - if you have not been to Trier, upriver from Beilstein/Cochem, hop the train there as this is a UNESCO World Heritage city (I think if not IMO it should be!) with what may be the most imposing Roman ruins/relics north of the Alps - once capital of the Western Holy Roman Empire the intact Porta Negra is a city gate that was the gateway to the eastern empire - there is also an old Roman temple converted around Constantine's era or so into a Christian basilica - and there is also the Karl Marz Haus where Marx and Marxism I guess was born and a sweet pedestrian town center. Though Trier, seriously bombed in WW2, lacks old-world charm it has been nicely rebuilt. All in all a great great day trip from any Mosel/Rhine base.

For others going to the Mosel who have never biked along the valley here are some tips to experencing one of Europe's top biking venues - with bike paths along the whole valley between Trier and Koblenz - you can rent a bike at Cochem's train station and ride downriver to another train station when tired and put your bike on the train and effortlessly return to Cochem - Moselkern would be a nice destination as from there you could trek up thru the forest to Burg Eltz, one of Germany's most famous and awesome castles, as noted before.

Riding down the valley rather than up it may be a lot easier since the deep gorge tends to act at times like a wind tunnel or wind funnel - usually IME blowing down the valley towards Koblenz.

Boats between Cochem and Beilstein also I believe take bikes on them.

riding upstream you could go to a train station like at Zell (home to the once famous Zeller Schwartzer katz or Black Cat wine - a nice wine town with lots of character and return by train with your bike.

In summer and fall there is always it seems some village with a wine festival celebrating the area's much vaunted Mosel white wines - delicate white wines that are a favorite all over the world.

To bike along the Mosel you need no map since if you go away from the river valley it usually means a prodigeosly steep climb.

I don't mean to hijack this thread but my question relates to this discussion. I leave one week from today for 10 weeks of home exchanges in several European countries including Germany. My DE dates are Aug 16-25. Just found out a few hours ago that German woman I'm exchanging with now, at the last minute has made it necessary for me to either rent a car instead of using hers as we've planned for over 6 mos OR travel by rail. I have not yet begun researching car rental fees.
Regarding the different passes available in Germany; while I've read the names of Lander pass and NRW ( north rhine westphalia)pass as well as the entire country pass which I won't need, I have no idea how to get prices of the different passes much less be familiar with the different pass types.
I've used Bahn.de many times and have seen special fares naming certain passes for the trip I was researching. But are we supposed to request to purchase a specific pass in advance or does it just show up on a p2p ticket?
If in advance for a specific time period, how does one do that? There will be 2 of us, 60 and 65 if that qualifies for a senior discount, and we will want to go from Lomar, which is betwn Koln and Bonn, on day trips to Maastricht, Aachen, Konigswinter, down the Rhein valley and on another day the Mosel valley, the EifelNaturepark and some towns there, Hattingen, and Maria Laach Abbey which I believe is in or near the Eifel area. Some of these may not even be readily reachable by train or practical timewise.
But if I can figure out how to research different limited passes, then I can compare car rental and p2p tix.
While it seems like Aug leaves me plenty of time to do this, I don't want to deal with it after we leave for Europe next Tues. Also, the further in advance p2p tix are booked, the cheaper they are usually.
I'm a good researcher but feeling overwhelmed now by this blindside.
While I wait for forum help, I'll research car rentals. sigh.
Thanks for any help.
Bonnie

Seems like most of your train rides are in a compact area of the Rhine and Mosel and thus the Lander Tickets, which you can buy in any German station either in ticket machines or at ticket counters would seem to be your best bet - 2 people can use one Lander Ticket for 29 or 39 euros, I forget which. that said the German Twin Railpass if you buy the max 10 days gets to be very cheaper per day and then you have no restrictions to worry about like on Lander tickets where you cannot use it on the fastest (and most comfy IME) trains.

bonbon: to use trains from Lohmar proper, you'll need to catch a bus into Siegburg (about 30 minutes) or maybe Troisdorf; to get to Bonn, it's about an hour on two buses at a price of 4.40 Euros.

You can read about the Länder Tickets at the link below, but since your exchange home is not in a very good location for outings by train, and because your outings will involve crossing the borders of the Land that you are in and international borders as well, you'd have a tough time piecing together Länder tickets and regional deals to make this work. The German railpass will be pretty expensive and does nothing solve the problem of Lohmar's location and the additional bus time and expense you'll incur, nor will it get you to Maastricht. You should probably reserve a car for your outings.

http://www.bahn.com/i/view/USA/en/pr...r-ticket.shtml

The German railpass will be pretty expensive>

well a ten day unlimited rail travel - calendar day midnight to midnight - hop on any train, including the crack ICE trains, anytime costs about $350 - that is $35 a day or about 23 euros a day - OP seems to be traveling many days and at 23 euros p.p. a day for unlimited train travel between different regions, etc. I would not say that this is pretty expensive but a downright bargain. (Prices for a Twin Pass - p.p. two people traveling on one pass.

PalenQ: 2 people: double your estimate. $700. And every day they go out, they have to ride the bus for at least an hour to get to the train and back. That's more money.

And the crack ICE train doesn't go to Maria Laach. NO TRAIN goes to Maria Laach. They'd have to bus to a train line, catch a train to the megametropolis of Andernach, catch another train to Mayen, then another bus. Figure 3+ hours. Driving from Lohmar to Maria Laach takes 45 minutes tops!

If they're going to the Naturpark Hohes Venn or the Nationalpark Eifel, the car is an obvious asset. This particular region is really tough to explore by public transport.

A small car for 10 days for their travel dates is $350 at Autoeurope. Fuel cost, even if they were to travel 2,000 km, which they won't (as you said, they'll be in the "compact area of the Rhine and Mosel") fuel would likely run around $200 tops.

I'm perhaps the biggest fan of German rail travel on this board. But rail travel doesn't make financial sense or any other kind of sense for Bonbon5's circumstances.

A car may well make more sense Russ, as you have shown - though it they did not want to bother then taxi fare to the nearest train station plus the pass would be another alternative - or take the bus and travel 30 mins each way to the station for almost nothing.;

To Russ or PalenQ: I am still working on my rail pass vs. P2P tickets. I wanted to compare the first class ticket prices vs. the rail pass, but the site won't give me the 1st class prices. Is the rail pass offered at 5 days for $273 for 1st or 2nd class. I know PalenQ suggested I go 1st class. Is there really much difference? If I do 2nd class do I need reservations on any of the routes? How about 1st class? Do I pay extra for reservation? Are they for a particular seat? Where will I put my suitcase? As you can tell I know nothing about train travel (but after this trip I will)!

nanaof4: ..."the site won't give me the 1st class prices"

On the itinerary search page, you can stipulate 1st class travel near the bottom by ticking the 1st class box, and the 1st class prices will appear after you hit "search."

"Is the rail pass offered at 5 days for $273 for 1st or 2nd class."

2nd class. 1st class is $356:

http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/germany.cfm

"I know PalenQ suggested I go 1st class. Is there really much difference?"

The difference is that very few people choose to buy 1st class tickets, so in 1st class you are less likely to have someone next to you or across from you on the train, an advantage maybe for shy people or those who wish to remain isolated during travel. You will often run into more North American and other international travelers in 1st class because they've purchased Eurailpasses, some of which are only available in 1st class. Whether this is a plus or a minus is pretty subjective. But the difference in comfort is generally negligible, and of course the 2nd class cars get to your destination just as fast as the 1st class cars. On trains, I enjoy people watching and the occasional conversation with normal Germans and Europeans, so I prefer the 2nd class situation.

Reservations are almost never required in Germany. You'll pay a few Euros more if you want one. I've traveled A LOT by train and never used reservations. Once, I couldn't find a regular seat on a local train I was using during rush hour and I sat on a pull-down seat in the multi-purpose car used for bikes, etc. Luggage: Storage varies a lot. Trains have overhead racks and/or a spot behind your seat and/or a rack near the train exit. I've never had trouble finding a spot.

"I am still working on my rail pass vs. P2P tickets."

I'm inclined to think that the railpass, though probably a little more expensive than piecing together P2P tickets, is probably a better choice for you because it is more flexible, easier to use, and more forgiving for a train novice; any boo-boos in dates, destinations, etc. in the online purchase process, or any missed connections (like on the trip to Rothenburg) that are the ticket-holder's mistake can result in a useless ticket and an expensive replacement ticket. With a railpass, such mistakes are more easily and cheaply correctable.

Thank you, Russ. I think I will buy the 5 day 2nd class rail pass. If I am thinking correctly it will cover these legs of my trip:

Frankfurt to Bacharach
Bacharach to Cochem
Cochem to Freiburg (where I would have to buy P2P
ticket to Staufen for regional train)
Staufen to Basel would be covered by Konus Card
In Switzerland I have to buy p2P tickets for my travel
When

Basel to Rothenburg
Rothenburg to Frankfurt

Then I would buy a p2p ticket to the airport.

When I am coming back to Switzerland, going from Lucerne to Rothenburg, through Basel, I would just purchase the ticket from Lucerne to Basel and then just hop on the train there with my Germany rail pass right?

Sorry I accidentally hit a key that divided up my post into two parts.

If buying the railpass then compare first and second class fares on the pass and the differnce is not all that much - for what you get and in no way is second class as comfortable as first class - there is some reason that trains always have a few first-class cars because locals will pay more to ride in them. To say that only Eurailpass holders or foreign tourists travel first class is simply not true - lots of business types do travel there, naturally but so do many locals - and seats in first class are much larger and you often can get a seat with a window and an aisle - so-called isolated seats - for a couple you can get two of these facing each other with a nice table in between in case you want to bring your own drinks and food onboard or even write postcards - you do not find these seats in 2nd class. In first you can often put your luggage in an adjoining empty seat - not so usually in 2nd where you have to heft it into an overhead luggage rack or leave it at the ends of the cars. For the very very significant advantages of 2nd class look at the first class pass and the price difference over a 2nd class pass and with a first class pass if you want to sit in 2nd class that is fine in case you want to mingle with 2nd class passengers but i guarantee you that after doing so you will love first class. 2nd class is not terrible - just smaller seats - no aisle and window seats that I at least love - less easy to store luggage and if you do not reserve ahead of time you will always - always in my decades of train travel in those countries but you will not always find empty seats in 2nd class and may have to stand a while IME.

No this is one thing you should not skimp on - put the same criteria to rail travel as to hotel choice, restaurants etc - hostels can give you a good night's rest and you can eat perfectly well at McDonalds, etc.

penny foolish IMO - when you are traveling with your 2nd class pass at least go to the first class cars and see the immense difference!

The difference in price for a 5-day German Twin Pass p.p. between classes is about $70 or about $13-14/day or train trip for you. In Germany this translates to the cost of about two coffees at a cafe or two beers in a caffe - nearly nothing in light of local prices. For that little difference I would definitely go first class - if for no other reason than you will be guaranteed to find empty seats in first class just by showing up - 2nd class can be very full and you may find an odd single empty seat but two together you may have to wait to someone gets off, etc.

Anyway to me a no-brainer but the Fodor's mantra is there is no difference between classes - folks who say that simply have not ridden in first class IMO.

"To say that only Eurailpass holders or foreign tourists travel first class is simply not true..."

PalenQ is getting pretty excited about this first class thing. First off, I never said that. Sure, there are businessmen who will pay extra because want to be alone and don't want kids around during their business chats, etc. My preference is 2nd class, but here are photos of the first class and second class seats in a typical ICE train so you can examine the differences yourself, nana, to see if it's worth the money to go first class:

http://www.seat61.com/ice.htm

Much of your travel in Germany will not offer you the ICE compartment configurations at all - you might be on the superfast trains on some routes, but you'll be on one or more local trains to reach Bacharach, Cochem, Staufen, Staufen to Basel, etc., since only local trains go to these small places, and these trains will show almost no differences at all between 1st and 2nd class.

I will say that my 75-year-old in-laws had an enjoyable and comfortable time on our train trip together through Germany about 7 years ago, and at no time did we set foot in a 1st class compartment.

The travel legs you outlined above would indeed be covered by the German railpass.

The Swiss border is a weird place.

Basel: The DB site says Basel is included:

http://www.bahn.com/i/view/USA/en/pr...railpass.shtml

There are three Basel train stations, however, and it's possible that the German railpass is valid only to the Basel Bad Station, not the main Basel SBB station. But I'm pretty sure you can get to SBB with the pass. I'm sure the conductor will let you know if you ask.

If not, it will cost you a few Euros to pay the conductor for the extra distance. When you're ready to return from Luzern to Basel and are buying your ticket, you can pay a few Euros extra to travel all the way to Basel Bad if the railpass won't kick in until you get there, and pay for that small segment of trip on the same ticket, I'm sure. You shouldn't need to get off the train in Basel Bad, however; the train from Basel SBB should be a long-distance train and may not even make a stop in Basel-Bad.

You don't have to go back via Basel. There are other routes from Luzern to Rothenburg too, of course. The connection from Luzern to Zurich to Stuttgart to Rothenburg that is available several times per day crosses into Germany at Schaffhausen. Well, not really. Schaffhausen is in Switzerland. But Germany treats it like it's in Germany. Anyway, the fare from Luzern to Schaffhausen is 18 CHF, and your German railpass kicks in from Schaffhausen on. Schaffhausen is the home of Europe's biggest waterfall, by the way - the Rheinfall - very impressive.

And the p2p ticket from Freiburg to Staufen can be bought in Freiburg where you have to change anyway. The RVF machine will sell you a "Preisstufe 2" ticket for 3.60 Euros. It may be possible to buy this ticket at the station Cochem before you leave too. There's a ticket counter there. Not sure what it would cost. The RVF ticket machine may look like this:

http://fudder.de/fileadmin/media/use...18ticket03.jpg

Wow, Russ. Such good information. And yet, I have more questions. I have been trying to find more ticket prices for Switzerland trains. What website did you use? You looked up Basel to Interlaken and Interlaken to Lucerne, but I will also need the ticket price for Lucerne to Basel. And, I am staying in Interlaken one night, but then I am going on to Lauterbrunnen where I will get the bus to Stechelberg to get the gondola up to Gimmelwald. And just to clarify . . . it is just me going on this trip alone. My first solo trip. Can you tell that I am a person who wants to have a trip all planned out, not that I am not sometimes spontaneous, but I don't want any big surprises, and I am wanting to figure out about how much this 2 week trip will cost. Thanks for all your help.

Use the Swiss railways website for Swiss fares: http://www.sbb.ch/en/home.html . Luzern-Basel is 31 CHF. Luzern-Schaffhausen is 31 too, if you exit Switzerland that way, not the 15.50 I gave you before. The site has a brand new format I'm not used to and I was being sloppy when I looked last.

I'm not up on the Swiss private railway stuff.

I don't know if you've ever gone to the Schilthorn but you can do that from Lauterbrunnen - really spectacular if the weather is good: http://www.schilthorn.ch/en/

There's breakfast + transport combo: http://www.schilthorn.ch/?uid=33 I will say that was probably the most memorable breakfast I've ever had.

Also, you'll be using the regional trains from Staufen to Basel; stipulate "only local transport" when doing your itinerary search at the German railways site.

Interlaken to Lauterbrunnen is about 7 CHF.

I also like to know just what I'm in for when I travel.

If you want info. on LOCAL daytrip options by train in the Rhine/Mosel area as well, let me know.

There are three Basel train stations, however, and it's possible that the German railpass is valid only to the Basel Bad Station, not the main Basel SBB station>

A German railpass or ticket is indeed valid all the way to Basel SBB - the main station - just like it is valid to Salzburg, Austria's station even though that is a few miles inside Austria.

Russ: I have been up to the Schilthorn once before. It was glorius. Piz Gloria that is. :) I checked the prices and doubt if I will do it this time unless the day is perfect. It doesn't pay unless it is clear. I remember how cold it was up there. Brrr!!

I'm still stressing about the pass. I have decided on a pass for sure, but not sure whether 1st or 2nd class.

I would like info on local daytrip options on the Rhine and Mosel, particularly the Mosel. I am only staying 2 nights in Bacharach and know I want to do the Bacharach to St. Goar KD boat cruise. I also want to hike up to the youth hostel in the castle at Bacharach. May also rent a bike. Other than that I plan to spend some time on a bench by the Rhine watching the barge traffic. Probably doesn't sound too exciting, but I am looking forward to it. It will be a time of thinking and reflecting for me.

I appreciate all your help.

"I'm still stressing about the pass. I have decided on a pass for sure, but not sure whether 1st or 2nd class."

You've no doubt read my take on it. Why not post a question about this choice - in Germany - on a new thread? You'll probably get get a lot of input.

"I also want to hike up to the youth hostel in the castle at Bacharach."

That will boost your heart rate. There are some other walks in the area that I've found equally/more rewarding.

"I would like info on local daytrip options on the Rhine and Mosel, particularly the Mosel."

How many nights are you staying in Bacharach? In Cochem? That would help in providing some transport advice. Near Cochem there are several hikes/walks that may interest you, one through the forest from Moselkern to Burg Eltz (castle), another to Valwiger Berg (just across the river from Cochem) with a rewarding view, and the Marienberg/Burg Arras (castle) hike just upstream from Cochem in Alf, also with great views. Walking from Cochem's town center up to Reichsburg Castle is also wonderful.

http://www.bensbauernhof.com/burgeltzfrommoselkern.html
www.burg-eltz.de

http://www.arras.de/html/english.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...erich_2010.jpg

(Alf is the small town at the far left of the above photo; the Marienburg is the high point in the center.)

Cochem's Reichsburg:
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/display/10437174

Catch one of the falconry shows on the grounds of the Reichsburg for a few Euros; photos here:

http://www.falknerei-reichsburg-cochem.de/fotobuch.htm

Trier is a larger place well known as Germany's oldest city; Roman history is the goal here. Not sure if this interests you or not.

http://www.trier-info.de/index


On the Rhine, St. Goar's Rheinfels castle is uphill but not very hard to reach:

http://static.rp-online.de/layout/sh...piel_media.jpg

The terrace-cafe at the hotel Rheinfels there is a nice place for a break:

http://www.schloss-rheinfels.de/blog...-der-landgraf/

You can walk from the hotel south along a path that takes you along the cliffs and eventually to the Maria Ruh lookout:

http://www.pervan.de/reiseberichte/B...aria_Ruh*53926

North of Koblenz on the Rhine:
The WW II museum in Remagen is very good: www.bruecke-remagen.de
Linz is also an adorable village; see photos: http://www.rheintourist.de/staedte/linz/linz.php

There's a great 3-day train pass for 34 Euros that would basically cover everything mentioned here except Trier. I'll explain once I know a little more about your plans.

Apologies in advance for hijacking this thread. I am planning a trip in Bavaria in September and stumbled upon this thread in my research. I've worked out each p2p ticket I need to take vs. the railpass and I think it's cheaper for me to go with the p2p tickets. Is it definitely better for me to buy them in advance? Most of my connections came up with the Euro 21 Bayern single ticket.

Russ - you advised nanaof4 earlier which to buy in advance and which to buy at the station? How did you figure this out?