Full wine by 4th grade
 

I was traveling with my European BIL last week. We were eating at a diner and I asked him about his experiences with "ice cold Cokes" when he moved to the US at 15 years old. He agreed with many of the European Fodorites that he did not understand the appeal of iced drinks.

He also said he didn't understand why Americans "washed" down their food with drinks. Everyone at the table had already had refills on soda. He pointed at his glass - maybe an inch of soda consumed by the end of the meal.

As we talked about sodas, he shared that a milestone of his childhood in Paris was drinking full wine at lunch by the 4th grade. Before then, it was watered down wine. He said "What else could we drink?" He shared that tap water wasn't very good back then and sodas weren't common.

What a difference. Cokes were sold in vending machines during my school days and he was drinking wine with lunch in Paris at the same time! :-)

The US is a strange, strange place. We shout "just say no!" from the rooftops. You can't have alcohol. You're not 21.

Yet it's super, super sexy all over the media. Beer commercials scream this is a product you want. Billboards extoll the coolness of drinking gin.

I prefer the European way. Teach your children how to drink. How to deal with sex. How to be a grown-up, long before they're grown-ups.

Was the tap water not potable where you were dining with your BIL? Soda with a meal? I'm not surprised he only had a sip.

As for drinking pure wine with his meals by the 4th grade, he was lying unless he comes from a family of alcoholics. While most French children have tasted most alcoholic beverages in their young years, it is exceedingly rare for children to drink wine on a regular basis before the age of at least 15. And even in places where people have an aversion to tap water, bottled water has been readily available everywhere since WW2, so I certainly would not use the tap water as an excuse to drink wine.

No. The tap water was not an "excuse" to drink wine. The drinking of wine was cultural.

No. My BIL is not a liar. There has never been a more honest person on the face of this earth. He does not embellish, exagerrate or stretch the truth in any way. In any case, there would be absolutely no reason to do so. This was a casual conversation and he brought up the topic of wine after I asked about ice cold drinks.

I rarely get offended on this board, but kerouac, I am offended by your comments regarding his being a liar unless his family was alcoholic. How incredibly crass of you.

He grew up in Paris in the 1950's. He said tap water in Paris at that time was very iffy. He does agree that tap water in Paris is quite potable now.

How strange that you would question the quality of the drinking water in last week's diner. What in the world does that have to do with anything? I have no idea what the tap water in Nyack, NY tastes like. I was drinking a soda - although probably mixed with local water. No one who drank water with lemon during the week had any complaints though. Geez.

Geez.

I grew up in Rome and although that we always had wine with our meals,I never really cared to drink full wine at dinner unless I mixed it with San Pellegrino, our sparkling water in a bottle.
When a child grow up knowings that drinking is not a sin, the child when he/she get older does not care to drink the forbidden nectar.

Our bars are open places where people can enjoy a gelato, a coffee or an aperitif and nobody get drunk there, unless of course they are young Americans that dont know how to handle liquers or beers.

I always remember the first time that I went to Frankfurt to visit my pen pal.

I never saw so many young Americans drunk as skunks in my life.
They were far away from home, nobody told them what to do and for the first time in their life, were free to drink as there were not tomorrow.
It was a truly pathetic scene.

Yes kismetchimera just like colleges in the US where the majority of the students "qualify" as binge alcoholics.

It is sad.

I completely agree. Neither my BIL nor his 25yo son drinks. "Forbidden nectar" is right.

Oh and don't forget. Fully 1/2 (yes 50%) of pregnancies in the US are unplanned. New millennium or not that's still a stunning slap in the face to the so-called "abstinence" people.

starrsville, thanks for reminding us that there are still some "old fashioned" Europeans around. I've seen enough young people (and older ones too for that matter) in Europe recently washing down coke after coke with meals. To think it is strictly a US custom is nonsense -- especially these days. I know some Americans who never drink coke or any other carbonated drinks. And oddly enough I'd guess I was in about the 4th grade when my parents started serving me wine with dinner (on special occasions) and we lived in OHIO!

Out of curiousity, do you also agree with the Europeans not allowing those under 18 to receive a driver's license?

Neo, I agree. I asked the ice cold coke question because I got slammed on this board by Europeans on an earlier thread and got lecture after lecture by a certain Fodorite who needed to convince me/ us that it was horrible for digestion. BIL agreed that he had not been served an ice cold soda before he moved to the US at 15 - and that his family also believed that cold drinks were bad for the digestion. Of course, his soda was ice cold while we were having this conversation - and his children have only known sodas served with ice. I assume his feelings toward digestion problems have changed. His feelings on "washing down" food with liquids have not. :-)

My parents never hid the alcohol or attached any stigma to drinking and none of their kids have ever had a drinking problem.

wren, my BIL traveled all over Europe via trains throughout his teens. I was totally amazed at the freedom he was given to go on weekend and summer trips alone. Perhaps there is less of a need to drive a personal car? In any case, his son did not even apply for a driver's license until a full year after he was old enough. Again, the son lived in an area of good public transportation and functioned well without a driver's license. Perhaps the two are connected? My friend from NYC has never driven and has never felt the need to apply for a drivers license. I can tell you I was the polar opposite on this one though! :-)

Well neither I nor anyone in my family or my late husband's is an alcoholic thank goodness. But I remember as a little girl being given a glass with some wine in it that had water added to it at dinner. I don't know if it was every dinner or just Sunday dinner however. I an still remember the glass (nonstem, I was a sloppy kid, lol). We had a bottle of wine on the table every night at dinner and as we grew older, perhaps around age 10, if we wanted a bit "straight" my father served it to us at and that point no water was added. My father (who was raised in Australia btw) felt that wine was a civilized drink to have with a meal. How proud he would be of the wines the Aussie's are now producing.

And my maternal grandfather who was from Germany had vineyards in Lodi, CA. He sold the grapes to wineries but he made his own wine for home consumption.

I grew up not thinking of wine as alcohol. I remember going to parties in HS and being shocked at fellow students that got smashing drunk..and yes they were the ones generally speaking whose parents thought even drinking wine was a sin.

My daughter and stepchildren grew up as I did regarding wine.

This is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Cross my heart!

Hi starrsville, wish we could be having a glass of wine together this evening!! ((D))

I have long heard that most German children - - beyond the age of breastfeeding - - were raised on beer, for a decade or more around WWII. There were, as I have been led to believe, essentially no dairy products available to much of the general public.

And even today, a (very large) beer (by American standards) seemed to be an essential part of the lunch break (for the highly skilled automotive workers), when I went on the Porsche factory tour in Stuttgart.

Best wishes,

Rex

That is interesting Rex, and sad of course too. Is there any nourishment in beer? BTW, I had read your post and had to leave. A neighbor has a gentleman visiting her who is from Baden-Baden Germany and is the age that he would have been a child during WWII and after. Such a strong and healthy looking fellow. It got me thinking about various people from Germany I have know that had grown up during the time period you are referring to and they all seem healthy and strong. Maybe beer is good for a growing child, lol. A child not having milk is not funny of course but that thought did go through my mind while driving. Take care.

Although not rich in calcium, I guess, I would say that beer compares not so bad as a substitute for milk. Certainly comparable in calories. A diet from that era might have had plenty of calcium through cabbages and related products, I think. Protein and fats would be lacking in any "famine" dietary regimen (all bread and potatoes is the usual "bad" diet that leads to malnourished children).

I have heard lots of stories from my mother's childhood in Germany. She bathed her pet pig in the tub unknowing that it would soon be dinner. She milked plenty of goats and sheep. But the one thing she did not do as a child was drink beer, lol. Maybe she should have had a few before learning the fate of her beloved pig...

In none of the public schools I attended was anything available to drink except milk and water. Definitely no soda machines. I think the teachers would have been horrified to see an elementary school child drinking anything other than milk at lunch (this was before raised consciousness about lactose intolerance and the invasion of juice boxes).
I don't like icy cold drinks in the U.S. or Europe--they make my teeth hurt. I drink maybe 3 cokes a year although I am pretty addicted to sparkling water (no ice in that either, it just makes it go flat faster).
Re Germans and beer, I toured a plant making very sophisticated medical equipment and their workers also thought nothing of having a beer with lunch. Just one though.
I worked in Brussels at one of the mega pharma companies and they had a supposedly very strict no drinking policy. Not even for special lunches for guests....BUT one of the desserts offered every day in the company cafeteria was baba au rhum. I tried one and it had almost half a cup of rum in it! Two of those and I would have been out for the afternoon. Those babas were very popular with staff on Fridays ;-)

In the Lehigh Valley (PA) where I grew up, there was one bar famous (or infamous) as being the place where local teenagers could get a beer, as long as they limited themselves to just one and behaved themselves. It was a PA German farming and steelworkers community, so nobody thought anything untoward about farm or steel kids quietly having *one* beer. Even the cops knew about it, but turned a blind eye (most of them had been to the bar themselves as teenagers).

I grew up with wine on the table, always. We were allowed a small glass at holidays and Sundays, even as small children. My parents did not drink other alcohol, and neither did any of our relatives; just wine. And yet, as a teen, I was always getting smashing drunk at any chance I had. Just thought I would add that to show that the European way isn't a gaurantee against teenagers being binge drinkers.

Starrsville and Loveitaly can I come over for a glass of wine?
We let our 17 year old drink wine on this latest europe trip. I grew up with wine at the dinner table.My mom is Colombian. When our son turned 15 we started to introduce wine at the dinner table. I hope I'm doing the right thing ,but my older son has told me horror stories of kids who are in college and don't know how to drink, they end up getting blasted all of the time.
Give me 5 minutes..I'll be right over.

Well, I was raised with small glasses of wine on special occasions from the time I was a child & drinking in my family wasn't frowned on.

I've successfully been in AA for over 32 years now but was a full-blown alcoholic by the age of 22. I certainly see a large amount of young drunks on the tube & in the streets at night in London so I'm not sure this whole prudish America slant in this thread is accurate.

Interesting point Carrybean. And congrats for doing so well.

Growing up, I never saw my parents take more than two glasses or wine or one beer over an entire evening. I never saw either of them even slightly drunk. Never. I never saw any of my friend's parents drink more than a glass or two of wine and only at special dinners. The one case of beer my parents kept in the basement lasted months. The only time my parents served alcohol at dinner was Thanksgiving (and then it was that awful Cold Duck). There was no pressure not to drink, it just wasn't part of the culture. I seldom drink more than two glasses of wine in an evening. None of my childhood friends grew up to be more than light social drinkers. With that background, coming to the UK has been...eye opening.

Forgot to add, that when I went on a high school trip to France, even though it was a scholastic student tour, we were served wine at dinners during the trip and toured a winery and were encouraged to sample the wine. Since then, European tours for high school students have gotten incredibly strict about that. I remember reading how some Colorado student (an honor student) on a short exchange program was suspended for having one small glass of beer with his host German family. I thought that punishment was more than a little excessive.

"I don't like icy cold drinks in the U.S. or Europe--they make my teeth hurt."

I'd agree with that, and ice in a drink makes it noisy, too.

In my early twenties I visited my wife's aunt in Somerset. She offered us gin and tonic before dinner. The tonic was at room temperature and there was no ice. It tasted better than any mixed drink I'd ever had, and I have pretty much shunned ice ever since.



Anselm

You DO realize all of you, that according to kerouac's standards, everyone is either lying or comes from an alcoholic family.


Yes.
Hours later, I am still p'd at his comment.

Sorry for the bad attitude.

LoveItaly and anamaria, come on over. I'll pour you a nice glass of wine :-)

BTilke, where in the Lehigh Valley are you from? Allentown? Quakertown?

My DIL is from Shamokin.

My parents are both European (Italy, Poland) and I think it is ridiculous to write that giving children alcohol will prepare them for responsible drinking later on in life. That is BULLCRAP. There are plenty of alcoholic, binge-drinking Europeans.

Starrsville, why don't we all go out and get our 4th-graders a hooker??

Christine

Oh, IOC, just stay away. If you equate wine with hookers then you have more problems than I realized.

"colleges in the US where the majority of the students "qualify" as binge alcoholics."

<b>Gross generalization and stupid remark, indytravel. </b>

Yes, pointing out the stupidity of your remark is worth being banned from Fodors. And (in for a penny, in for a pound) I think that fourth graders who drink wine are pathetic little children who have bad parents. It reminds me of the pool repairman we had who chain smoked, and remarked that he had started smoking at age 6. His father had given him his first cigarette because they thought it was &quot;cute.&quot; That's very, very lower class---giving children adult beverages or other vices---in American, Europe, or on the moon.

Gross generalization? Really.

Enter &quot;binge drinking&quot; into google.com and see what you come up with.

This one?

http://www.cspinet.org/booze/collfact1.htm

How about this one.

http://www.securityoncampus.org/update/news/032502.html

Maybe this one:

http://www.intheknowzone.com/binge/stats.htm

Oh wait a minute, only 42% on this site.

Maybe all these web sites are wrong. Maybe drinking isn't a problem in the US.

Pretending it isn't a problem is also a problem.

Carrybean,

As they say, you're telling my story.

Due to my mother's uncle being an alcholic I was tut-tutted at an early age when the subject of alcohol came up. I never had a drink until I was about 21 years old. I never really wanted one, I watched other kids get stone drunk but I would drink a coke just because I liked the taste.

When I started going out to nice restaurants I would have wine with dinner. Then when I would go to clubs I would have a Tom Collins (remember those?) because I was so warm from dancing the Collins were refreshing.

I have been drunk twice in my life and it was so unpleasant I decided never to do that again. I have a few glasses of wine in a week. More, if I am in Italy!!

I don't know where I fit in this theory, starrsville.

It's not a theory - at least, it's not my theory.

kerouac called my BIL a liar - or claimed his parents were alcoholic.

Neither is true. kerouac. john. 2tired.

I'm exhausted from their antics.

If nothing else, it confirms that people are stranger than one can imagine.

john/handmaiden/IOC equates wine with hookers.
2tired asserts there aren't any problems with binge drinking on college campuses.

I give up. Let them take over this thread and this board with their parallel universe.

Frankly, I don't think that it really matters at what age one takes a drink. That will not an alcoholic make. You either are or you aren't. My ex-husband is an alcoholic, drank for 30 years and bless him has been sober for the last 15 years, but he is still and alcoholic. My older brother and SIL are both alcoholics, my younger brother and myself luckily are not. We had almost no alcohol in the house when I was growing up and years later, reading between the lines, I think my dad did or could have had a drinking problem. I drank quite a bit in college, never did the binge thing, but as I got older and wiser, I just finally realized I didn't like it and didn't have to do it. I still rarely drink, I just don't care much about it.

I don't really approve much of giving alcohol to small children just because of their small size and weight, I think it could be dangerous. However, a child being given a sip of wine is certainly not a &quot;sin&quot;, and trust me, it won't MAKE him an alcoholic. Like I say, you are or you aren't and drinking does NOT make you one.

LOL, another funny weekend Fodor's thread. Now Starrsy, when and where are you going to host the wine event for anamarie and I????? That is all that we want to know!

In my book, a 4th grader is 9 years old. Drinking pure wine with lunch is not normal and certainly nothing to brag about. You can be offended all you want, starrsville, if you think that is a good thing.

But perhaps the BIL was talking about being in &quot;quatri&egrave;me,&quot; which, as all of you know, translates to 8th grade.

I am not in the least offended by your opinion that drinking wine at lunch is &quot;not normal&quot;. &quot;Normal&quot; is based on your frame of reference. Your frame of reference was, and is not, the same as his as a child growing up in Paris in the 1950's. Other Fodorites experience attest to the fact that your frame of reference (as an American now living in France, I believe) is not relevant to the reality of my BIL's experience - and many others.

Your last post is not in any way offensive. You have your opinion and you just stated an opinion in a non-offensive manner. I may or may not agree with it. I may or may not agree with many opinions on this board. That is what makes a forum such as this very interesting.

Your original comment however, is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. Because something does not match up with your frame of reference does not excuse you or should not allow you to say &quot;As for drinking pure wine with his meals by the 4th grade, he was lying unless he comes from a family of alcoholics&quot;. That comment is completely offensive.

My BIL is fluent in five languages and even you would not have any difficulty understanding what he says. He said &quot;4th grade&quot; - he meant &quot;4th grade&quot;.

Wine with lunch at 4th grade was very much &quot;normal&quot; for him. Watered down wine prior to 4th grade was very much &quot;normal&quot; for him. Access to a soft drink machine in his elementary school was not &quot;normal&quot; for him. At breaks during school I would go to the vending machine and buy a Grape Nehi. It was a treat for me because I was not allowed Grape Nehis at home.

Wine in Paris for a child's lunch = normal for him. Not normal for you and me (if you did indeed grow up in US).

Sodas sold and/or served in elementary schools = normal for me. Not normal for him.

Your frame of reference does not define normal for everyone else (thank God).

starrsville, being called a liar seems to be a fairly common thing around here. I recently innocently mentioned that twice in France restaurants refused to take a MasterCard (as soon as they saw it, not because the card wouldn't work) but that they would take VISA. I was called a liar as that simply couldn't happen. It was NOT possible that a lowly waiter could have been mistaken for example. I'm not sure how these people who aren't in a certain place at a certain time are able to know what did or didn't happen as opposed to those of us who lived these experiences. Since I mentioned I was in about the fourth grade when I was first given wine with a dinner by my family, I suppose I'm next to be called a liar once again!

Oh starrsville and Neo I have had two or three posters that from time to time challenge everything I say and indicate I am a liar. It used to upset me but now I just chuckle about it and wonder what in heavens name is their problem. As you know I have had the same screen name since I originally posted on Fodors..whenever that was, sometime after 9-11-01 I believe. I always say I have only been to Italy except for a short trip into Switzerland as far as Europe is concerned. I have said time and time again I was born and raised in the SF/Bay Area. That my mother's maternal side of the family came to SF shortly after the Civil War. But in the past I have been accused of never having been in SF, of knowing nothing about Italy etc etc.

Just ignore those type of posters or BLAST them. Just do whatever works for you but please don't let people like that upset you. You are both to special to worry about a few unpleasant and grumpy posters.

LOL, Neo!

And, next I will be called a liar because I said that soda machines sold Grape Nehis in my elementary school in the 4th grade. Of COURSE, I have to be lying because sodas weren't sold in xyz's elementary school! Don't people realize how narrow-minded they sound when they can't conceptualize that others' experiences are different from theirs?

What possible reason would you have to make up the Mastercard story?!?! These flamers need to get a grip.

LoveItaly, the thought that has been bothering me the most since kerouac's unbalanced post was &quot;Is HE what Parisians think Americans are like?&quot;. I shudder to think that such a small-minded, black &amp; white, &quot;I'm right so therefore you are wrong&quot; approach to others is representing an &quot;American&quot; point of view. That is truly distressing. I would love to attach a sign to his back that says &quot;This man does not represent all Americans&quot;. Such sarcasm and condescending tone in his posts.

Okay. Good advice, LI. Just let it go.