French cheese:pasteurized, unpasteurized
 

I'm going to Paris next week, and my OB said not to eat any unpasteurized cheese; aside from the obvious soft cheeses, such as Roquefort,how will I be able to tell? Thanks, if anyone has any thoughts about this.

The cheeses are one of the highlights of France. You won't get sick, and it's because they are unpasteurized that they taste better.

Hi<BR><BR>60m French + the more in the other countries have survived eating unpasteurised cheese ?<BR><BR>Peter<BR><BR>

Hey people--read what she said. She is PREGNANT and her doctor says not to eat unpasteurized milk cheeses. There is a book about French cheeses that will tell you. I am afraid that most will be unpasteurized. You might ask him if it makes a difference if they are aged.<BR>You might google to look for info. It is too bad you won't be able to partake of many but the reward will be worth it!! I have the book and will try to look some up for you. Good luck.

If you ask, the seller will tell you. Sellers in the street markets and in cheese shops tend to know what they sell. They will be able to tell you which ones are unpasteurized and what kind of milk each cheese is made from and what region it is from. <BR><BR>I love the unpasteurized cheeses, and I am not at all worried about eating them. However, if your immune system is compromised or if there are other personal medical reasons why your doc advised you not to consume them, you should be able to get good enough info from vendors to enable you to avoid them.

People seem totally unaware that pregnant women SHOULD NOT EVER consume unpasteurized products.

The danger to pregnant moms (to the babies, actually) from listeria monocytogenes in unpasteurized dairy products is a real one.<BR><BR>http://www.cnn.com/2000/FOOD/news/09/27/cheese.reut/

Thanks for the url, suzy! We all learned something.

PG -- I am also pg and am going to Paris in 2 weeks. My dr. said it is one of the "most difficult" countries to go to while pg. She commanded no cheese because of the difficulty in finding pasteurized cheese (and yes, the threat of listeria is real -- it usually doesn't sicken the adult, but can kill the baby), so I'm glad to see the responses to your post that suggest that I may be able to find some cheeses that will be okay.<BR><BR>Just to share her other advice -- my OB also said no beef or lamb (the French have a real problem with toxoplasmosis), no pate', limited fish (12 oz per week). I guess I'll be eating lots of coq au vin and pastry!<BR><BR>Another question -- does creme brulee have undercooked eggs??? Anyway to know if any sauces or other desserts also contain undercooked eggs?<BR><BR>Thanks -- and enjoy Paris!

Here's another link to info on food-borne illnesses that are harmful to developing babies:<BR><BR>http://www.modimes.org/HealthLibrary/334_543.htm

Since toxoplasmosis is killed in well-cooked meats, you should be OK with boeuf bourguignon (sp?) and such, to alternate with your coq au vin. <BR><BR>Some experts estimate that half the US population has already been exposed to toxoplasmosis, and there is an antibody test that can determine whether you've already had it; if so, you are not at risk for a new, dangerous infection while pregnant.

Hi<BR><BR>think about it.<BR><BR>60 m French people ................ did none of their parents eat unpasteurised cheese ?<BR><BR>Peter<BR>

I'm glad for the replier who said that the cheese monger will know.The book I am referring to is the Eyewitness Guide to French Cheeses. I went through it, salivating at every page. But here are some ideas in case you want to look on a restaurant menu. I will do another post for the rest.Formatting didn't hold<BR>Port Salut<BR>Pont-l’Eveque (most)<BR>Olivet cendre<BR>Neufchatel (some)<BR>Nantais/Cure<BR>Murol<BR>Coeur d’Arras<BR>Coeur d’Avesnes<BR>Baguette Laonnaise<BR>Mamirolle<BR>Langres<BR>Petit-Suisse<BR>Fontainebleau<BR>(fromage frais)<BR>Fourme d’Ambert<BR>L’Amise du<BR>Chambetin<BR>Emmental (Not grand<BR>cru however)<BR>Chaumes<BR>Aligot/Tomme<BR>Fraiche (some)<BR>Saint Remy<BR>Cantal (some)<BR>Coulommiers (some)<BR>Bresse Bleu<BR>Bleu de Sassengage<BR>Bleu du Quercy<BR>Bleu d’Aubergne<BR>Trappist de<BR>Chambaran<BR>Trappe Chourgnal<BR>Tomme de Romans<BR>Tomme de Savoie<BR>(some)<BR>Sainte Paulin<BR>Le Pitchout<BR>Rigotte des Alpes<BR><BR>

I think most of them printed out. Have a great trip and return when you can eat everything. Roquefort is a definite "NO"--couldn't tell if that was what you said. But there are other blues. There are hard, soft, chevre, and fraiche cheeses that you can have. I know you will be judicious as you have already illustrated.

I think most of them printed out. Have a great trip and return when you can eat everything. Roquefort is a definite "NO"--couldn't tell if that was what you said. But there are other blues. There are hard, soft, chevre, and fraiche cheeses that you can have. I know you will be judicious as you <BR>have already illustrated.<BR><BR>To Lisa, creme brulee should be safe--it is "gelled". Can't think of much else that would be of danger.

I was pregnant twice in this country and survived. I did avoid unpasteurized cheese, which is hard and quite painful if you love it. But don't worry, French cheese shops are used to this question. French women are also warned about toxo and not eating unpasteurized cheese. Unfortunately, this limits you to industrial cheeses sold in supermarkets such as Boursin (which you can get in the US!) and some Dutch cheeses, which are delicious but...not French. Do not eat hard cheese such as gruyere (pates cuites) thinking that because the cheese is cooked during the process that it is ok! It's still made from unpasteurized milk. I would also avoid salads in anything but the best restaurants. So it's not the best time to splurge on gourmet food and wine, but enjoy your trip any way. Luckily for you, there''s many other things in France to enjoy. Like dessert (creme brulee is cooked so ok to eat). Have fun and don't hesitate to send email if you have any questions.

Thank you for all the helpful advice, everyone. Gretchen, I am uncertain if those are pasteurized or unpasteurized cheeses on your list? Thank you for taking the time to research it.

I'm the person who said the cheese vendor would know, but I want to admit that I'm not an expert on France, so don't put TOO much trust in my answer. I was in France (Provence and the Dordogne) only twice in recent years, and another two times long ago. On the recent trips, I enjoyed buying food at street markets. I was impressed with the kind of info the sellers had about the regional origins of their fruits, how their olives were prepared, what their cheeses were like, what was inside the flavored breads and pizza-like things. There seemed to be a lot more info than I would normally expect in the US from casual sellers, and the level of info was more like what I get from some fussy, very well informed, talkative owners of specialty food stores near where I live in the US. And the sellers seemed to welcome questions from a curious foreigner who didn't speak French well at all. That's why I'm fairly sure that you could get a good answer re which cheeses are/are not pasteurized. However, in light of the information posted above re unpasteurized cheese being such a serious risk to the unborn baby, maybe it wouldn't be so wise to depend on the seller's info, just in case you get some uninterested or poorly informed ones.

The owner of a dayry product shop will most probably know which cheese are pasteurized and which are not. But i wouldn't put much faith in the advice of the person who sell cheese in a supermarket.

As a physician at a university, one thing I have seen over and over again is how often students, with absolutely no knowledge of medicine, give advice to their friends, as to what they should and shouldn't do with certain symptoms and illnesses. It's a common phenomenon, like people with an unexplained skin lesion always saying they think it is a spider bite. ( a universally seen presentation to doctors offices ) Here you have people, with no experience in the reality of practicing medicine, offering advice to a stranger on how she should conduct herself in France. Isn't that amazing. Do you think for a minute, if they had to sign their real names and addresses, they would put out such information. It's very easy to hid behind the wall of obscurity and tell people how they should behave in regards to their health, but drop that veil, and let's see how many of you would step forward.

I would certainly never trust online information unless it was from a website operated by a medical authority, and I'm sure that true of most people in this discussion.<BR><BR>But having personally had physicians misdiagnose problems, or miss things, which were then properly identified by nonmedical friends, I will say this: Until the medical profession is universally infallible, it will make sense for patients to check up on all possible sources, while taking resposibility for considering the relative validity or completeness of them all.<BR><BR>Remember, the original poster wasn't asking a medical question, she was asking a question about how cheeses are made -- i.e., how to tell which ones are made with unpasteurized milk so she could avoid them as her physician recommended.<BR>

The cheese sellers in marketplaces in France will most certainly know if their cheeses are unpasteurized or not. So will the people behind the counter at any reputable supermarket in France - food, after all, is a national obsession. If you hang out in French markets and supermarkets a lot, as I do, you will find that it's not at all uncommon for the average shopper to engage the vendor in a lengthy conversation about the origins of the product, its manufacture, its age, the best ways to use it, etc. It's completely unlike shopping in the USA, where the grocery store staff don't know a thing about what they're selling other than what label someone has put on it.<BR><BR>And after reading this thread I must say I'm amazed I survived pregnancy in France. I was there while pregnant with both of my kids and ate anything and everything, including unpasteurized cheeses and beef and lamb and plenty of p&acirc;t&eacute;. It never even ocurred to me to ask if I should be wary of anything. But it's always been my hunch that Americans are so concerned about "sanitation" that they never acquire immunity to anything.

Thank you, Suzy; my question was not for medical advice,as you noted, but for information re cheese, and most responders have been very helpful. It seems that the hard/soft distinction is really not the way to determine pasteurization.

Some well known cheese :<BR><BR>-Brocciu (crude milk)<BR>-Beaufort (crude)<BR>-Bleu du Vercors (pasteurized)<BR>-Emmental (crude)<BR>-Raclette(can be crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Reblochon (crude)<BR>-St-Felicien (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Tomme de savoie (crude)<BR>-Vacherin (crude)<BR>-Bleu de Gex (crude)<BR>-Comte (crude)<BR>-Epoisses (crude)<BR>-Morbier (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Munster (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Mont d'Or (crude)<BR>-Brie de Meaux, Melun or Coulomiers (crude)<BR>-Maroilles (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-St-Paulin (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Camembert (usually crude)<BR>-Crottin de Chavignol (???)<BR>-Livarot (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Pont L'eveque (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Selles (???)<BR>-Bleu des Causses (crude)<BR>-Cabecou (crude)<BR>-Laguiole (crude)<BR>-Ossau Iraty (???)<BR>-Roquefort (crude)<BR>-Bleu d'Auvergne (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Cantal (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Fourme d'Ambert (pasteurized)<BR>-Gaperon (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Saint-Nectaire (crude or pasteurized)<BR>-Salers (crude)<BR>-Murol (pasteurized)<BR><BR>As you can see, there are very few cheese which are always pasteurized. That's why it would be a good idea to buy your cheese at a market/in a little shop and ask the owner.<BR><BR>As for listeria, there has been cases with pasteurized cheese too, since listeria can "invade" a pasteurized cheese if a strict hygiene isn't respected, and is actually more likely to do so, since it doesn't "compete" with as much other micro-organisms. But whatever floats your boat.<BR><BR> Of course though you can easily find a poor non pasteurized cheese, it's difficult to find a good pasteurized one, since the flavor comes from the micro-organisms destroyed by this process (in pasteurized cheese, flavor is restored in some way by adding I don't know what, possibly "safe" micro-organisms)<BR><BR>Concerning eggs, I couldn't answer, since I don't know what is exactly a "properly cooked egg". I would assume that eggs in a creme brule are properly cooked, but I couldn't swear it. AFAIK, eggs are never pasteurized in france. Uncooked eggs doesn't seem to be a health issue in france, or at least not near to the same level than in the US. I don't know why.<BR><BR>

StC, why are you "amazed that you survived pregnancy"? The risks we're talking about aren't risks to the mother, after all. And they are small risks, so it's not at all surprising that an individual would "escape" the problem.<BR><BR>Listeria monocytogenes, the most common culprit in these cases, wasn't even identified until a couple of decades ago. It has caused far more deaths than "Mad cow disease" but because it doesn't cause weird scary symptoms, it doesn't get as much coverage. <BR><BR>Remember, the medical profession didn't even recognize Fetal Alcohol Syndrome until the 1970s, and it's probably been with us since fermented beverages were discovered in prehistory. <BR><BR>Here's an early article from the World Health Organization about listeria in dairy products in France.<BR><BR>http://www.who.int/disease-outbreak-news/n2000/feb/29feb2000.html<BR><BR>And some other discussion from reputable sources (some in French, alas):<BR><BR>http://www.chu-rouen.fr/ssf/pathol/listeriainfection.html<BR>http://www.health.fgov.be/WHI3/krant/krantarch2000/kranttekstapr/000413c08afp.htm<BR>http://www.ifst.org/hottop2.htm

StCirq<BR><BR>You said,<BR><BR>"It's completely unlike shopping in the USA, where the grocery store staff don't know a thing about what they're selling other than what label someone has put on it."<BR><BR>Do you stereotype people all the time? What do you think of the Jews? I can only imagine. I teach cooking classes in the US and find that most grocers are quite competent and concerned about what they sell to their customers. They also know their product very well. What a typical arrogant, pompous French thing to say. Only the French really understand food etc. Give me a break!

Dr Suzy<BR><BR>You are so smart. Can I get your real e-mail address? I would love to talk to you.

St. Cirq, I am 61 yrs. old, and there were lots of things we did when pregnant that are now advised against, such as having an occasional drink, drinking caffeine, dyeing our hair, possibly eating an unpasteurized cheese,etc.; I would imagine that in the vast, vast majority of cases no harm was done. However, I can certainly understand young women in this day and age wanting to take every possible precaution and following medical advice as it is delivered today. An analogous example might be that thirty years ago we thought nothing of holding a baby on our laps in the car--incomprehensible today.

Suzy<BR><BR>You're too easy to read my dear. You should have waited at least for one or two others to respond before you so defensively responded to my post. Alas, you're not the person you want us to think you are. <BR><BR>

Suzy: I guess I should've said I was amazed that my kids had turned out normal - there seemed to be a certain amount of hysteria over all the things a pregnant woman shouldn't eat in France on this thread. I never gave it a thought - and neither did my doctors, and both my kids are very healthy. <BR><BR>Jonathan: I'm not French, but I do appreciate your thinking I am. Perhaps you're not aware of the major differences between French grocers and US grocers, but there are considerable ones. The young people behind, let's say, the cheese counter, at the Intermarch&eacute;, know FAR more than anyone I've ever come into contact with in my local Giant or Safeway, where they can't even spell the names of the products correctly, never mind tell you their origins or their uses. Maybe you as a cooking school person have a special relationship with your local grocery store, but believe me, the average person goes to the grocery store, asks, "Does that cheese have cumin it it?" and gets "beats me" as an answer, never mind if you ask a really complicated question. I reiterate, the French staff in any grocery store are far more knowledgable than their American counterparts. Sounds to me like you haven't been to France or spent much time talking to French grocery clerks or vendors at markets. There's a world of difference.

Grandm&egrave;re: Entendu! It was only 15 and 12 years ago that I embarked for France pregnant, but still, you're right. We take more precautions all the time, and that's a good thing for yong mothers. At the same time, something tells me Americans' obsession with cleanliness and santitation - and NO, I'm not a dirty person or an untidy person - keeps them from acquiring immunity to anything. I'm well into middle age, and I haven't been sick for a day for more than 15 years. I travel all over the world and try all kinds of food and shower and shampoo daily, but I do not carry bacterial soap with me everywhere or spray Lysol around my house or bleach the heck out of my clothes or worry about sharing a toothbrush with one of my kids if we forget one on an overnight trip or..whatever. I do think Americans obsess about this stuff, and are consequently less healthy than if their bodies had been exposed to more things that might build up their immunities. I'm not a doctor. This is just my theory.

Where's that Kahn lady when you need her?

St. Cirq-- and I agree with you, too!

Ahh. The cultural differences are so refreshing. In Canada where all dairy products are pasturised by law, there is also an expression, 'see what happens when you drink straight from the cow'. This is used in referrence to insanity or plain stupidity. As I was taught in school the 1 in 100,000 chance that you would succumb was to running a fever high enough not to kill you, but to leave you brain dead or simple. This only applied to young. I think this would be why expectant mothers would be warned off by their doctors.

To Pg,<BR><BR>Regarding the cheeses - almost every cheese you purchase in the grocery store will be marked on the label as made with 'pasteurized milk ,or 'au lait cru' (raw milk). It's actually pretty hard to find a raw milk cheese in the grocery store refrigerator shelves (the cheese 'counter' is a different story).<BR><BR>The link between raw milk cheese and spontaneous abortion was discovered about 15 years ago. It occurs mostly in cases where women have not been raised eating raw milk cheeses throughout their lives.<BR><BR>As to undercooked eggs - there are many restaurants that still make their own mayonnaise - so I would avoid dishes with mayonnaise as well.<BR><BR>Well cooked beef and lamb don't present a problem, so I doubt you'd have a problem with things like navarin of lamb, or beef stews.<BR>I don't understand the reference to fresh fish - perhaps shellfish, but there's no reason not to eat fish.<BR><BR>PB

Where are names of cheeses that I know? What about St. Andre,Brie qnd Fontina? These are products commonly available in the States. <BR>Also, it now becomes apparent that there is no topic (not even cheese) which doesn't cause some sort of nasty argumentative tone on this board. Most discouraging.

Pg, my list of cheeses was pasteurized milk. Glad PB has answered with good solid information. I too am thankful (like St.Cirq and Grandmere!) that my kids turned out healthy what with all the "restrictions" doctors recommend now.<BR>I think the egg thing is not a problem in Europe largely because we have created our salmonella problem in the US with overuse of antibiotics in raising poultry which is not done in Europe.

If you eat American meat products you are eating an antibiotic,hormone, steroid enhanced product. I wonder if this may not be more dangerous?

Jonathan Miller,<BR>I think that your reference to Jews has nothing to do with this and is quite uncalled for.Try to keep to the topic,you would make a better point.<BR><BR>Living in NYC-the usual person working in food markets is lucky to be able to pronounce the name of a product.Forget expecting them to know anything at all about the product!<BR>In Paris, the people that shop and the people working in the shops have a better knowledge of foods.That is in part because the French have such a different outlook on buyin,preparing and eating food.<BR>Thinking because one country does not do something that they do in the US makes that country somehow less intelligent or safe is a little ignorant itself! If people started dropping like flies because they ate unpasturized cheeses,if the children born had problems due to that, I am sure there would be some sort of changes made.<BR>Here in New York City, the doctors also tell you not to sit in a bathtub full of water!Don't dye your hair, all sorts of precautions...I think Malpractice has something to do with it, overly cautious and ignorance play a big part also.<BR>I believe Pg should listen to whomever she puts her trust in, one thing For Sure, for me that would not be a bunch of strangers on the internet!!<BR>

Cirq du Francais<BR><BR>Hey, I'm a saint too...aren't we special.<BR><BR>You do come across as a little superior and I can see why you generated such a response from Jonathan, though I agree he didn't have to say anything about the Jews. It does get a little boring being told endlessly how wonderful the French are, in every way, and how culturally inferior we Americans are. This theme is repeated on these boards ad nauseum.