Kate, your faith in the medical profession is quite touching, but very naive: "If people started dropping like flies because they ate unpasturized cheeses,if the children born had problems due to that, I am sure there would be some sort of changes made."<BR><BR>As we all know, medical research discovers new things every day. This of course means that there are many things it till does not know. And medical research can only answer questions that people have thought to ask. For instance, children were born for centuries with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, frequently including mental retardation, but it took doctors until the mid-1970s to put the evidence together -- moms do not often show up for their OB appointments while drinking! Sometimes it takes a long time to ask the right questions and piece together the evidence. <BR><BR>The impact of listeria infection can take two months to become evident, so nobody knows how long this infection was causing problems, nor how many miscarriages might have been caused by it before the problem was identified.<BR><BR>It is especially difficult to identify situations where, as St. Cirq has pointed out, there are usually no ill effects, but rather a relatively small risk.<BR><BR>Now, what's all this about bathtubs??

Just a small point. We got salmonella in eggs here too.<BR><BR>The advice to the pregnant is the same as in the US- no soft or blue cheese; no shellfish and no uncooked eggs.<BR><BR>mmm? Wonder if that's why I have no kids?

Dr. Suzy<BR><BR>Here you go again. You obviously don't think much of the medical profession, I wonder why? Let me suggest the next time you need, say, a cholecystectomy or appendectomy or a meningioma removed from your brain, you get some of your "non medical friends" to perform the surgery. As smart as you are I'm sure you are aware that the average age of survival for a man in the United States 100 years ago was about 45. Today it is around 76. Now one of the big reasons for that is modern medicine eradicated small pox from this planet, stopped the dreaded and disfiguring polio virus in it's tracks, turned Hodgkin's disease into a chronic illness instead of a death sentence, advanced the understanding of cardiovascular disease, cancer and HIV, just to name a few. Those accomplishments have allowed people to live longer and what could be more important than that? For you to sit on this board and belittle medicine because doctors didn't figure out Fetal Alcohol Syndrome ( you seem to be obsessed with this...I wonder why? )in a timely manner according to you is ridiculous. <BR>Let me suggest you go to your search engine ( let me guess - Google ) and find some other articles to reference us to so it looks like you know what you are talking about.

My my my, such human drama all about CHEESE?

Dr Suzy<BR><BR>You said:<BR><BR>"As we all know, medical research discovers new things every day. This of course means that there are many things it till does not know"<BR><BR>I'm sorry to say this but you sound like an absolute moron making statements like that. Save yourself any further embarrassment by turning off your computer. And stay off the booze.

Other foods that often have raw or undercooked eggs: caeser salad dressing, chocolate mousse, the rich heavy sauces (hollandaise, bearnaise, choron). In the US these days, I don't think they make caeser salad or mousse with raw eggs anymore, but traditionally that is how they are prepared.

Why are you sensitive medical types singling out Suzy for ridicule? As a layperson, the silliest notion I see here is StCirq's innuendo that we stupid Americans could build-up immunity to killer bacteria. Last time I checked, citizens of every country, even France, have succumbed to the likes of Ecoli, salmonella, listeria, botulism, etc. and I doubt the overuse of Lever 2000 antibacterial soap had anything to do with the deaths.

Also chocolate truffles are often made with raw egg yolks.

Robyn,<BR><BR>Brie is usually made with raw milk. I never heard about "St Andre" or "Fontina", so I wonder if these products are genuine french cheese. "Fontina" doesn't even sound french, actually. It sounds more like a brand name invented by a marketing department.<BR><BR><BR><BR>

Corrine, I think you'll find that most of the increase in life expectancy is due to decreases in the death rates among infants and young children, much of which had been accomplished through improved hygiene and nutrition long before strides had been made against polio, Hodgkins, cardiovascular disease, etc. and certainly even before HIV/AIDS had any impact on life expectancies. <BR><BR>I am not belittling medicine, nor am I advising nonmedical personnel to perform appendectomies, for heaven's sake. I only wanted to point out that even doctors overlook things (yes, a couple of key diagnoses in my own case) and have things to learn.

Fontina is a very well known Italian cheese.

Dozens of my friends have been pregnant here in France, and I've never seen any of them restrict herself on cheeses, nor am I aware of any GP advising against it. And, as one poster pointed it, as far as food safety/quality is concerned, you will be far better off in Europe than in the States. One last data: last year, France was the number one country in Europe for birth rates (for the first time ahead of Ireland), with 99 % of pregnant women eating all kinds of cheese...

for God's sake, people. it's cheese! CHEESE!<BR><BR>has it ever occurred to anyone that it can't be all that bad as the French have been eating it for ages, and last I checked, they have not died off as a race...<BR><BR>zounds.

Ah, the ultimate food fight. It is all too true that French women have been having babies and eating raw milk cheese. That is as far from the point as you can get. This woman's OB has advised her not too. She asked a question about pasteurized milk cheese, not obstetrics.

While pregnant I was told not to immerse myself in a swimming pool.When my daughter was pregnant she was told not to take baths after the 7th month.<BR>I guess some doctors think the little bacterias will run inside and find the baby?<BR>I understand what Kate meant..just follow the advice of your doctor and try to be smart.<BR>Although shellfish,raw eggs and raw meat are known to be dangerous for anyone to eat,not just pregnant women,I cannot imagine so many people having probs with eating cheese!

For the record, and for those thinking modern medical science is operating on whims, here are some facts:<BR><BR>Listeria monocytogenes is a small rod shaped gram-positive bacterium that is ubiquitous in the environment, in the soil, on<BR>plants and animals. Listeriosis (the state of Listeria infection) is associated with eating of unpasteurized cheese or dairy<BR>products, or consumption of contaminated vegetables. Infection occurs primarily in newborns and infants, elderly or<BR>immunocompromised individuals, or pregnant women (mother is asymptomatic or has influenza-like syndrome, but the<BR>newborn can acquire it during birth, or infection can cause abortion or premature delivery). According to the CDC about 1500<BR>cases are reported in the United States each year, mostly in the aforementioned high risk groups. <BR><BR>Pregnant women are about 20 times more likely than other healthy adults to<BR> get listeriosis. About one-third of listeriosis cases happen during pregnancy.<BR> The incidence of listeriosis in the newborn is 8.6 per 100,000 live births.2 There<BR> is no routine screening test for susceptibility to listeriosis during pregnancy, as<BR> there is for rubella and some other congenital infections. Newborns, rather than<BR> the pregnant women themselves, suffer the serious effects of infection in<BR> pregnancy. <BR><BR>for more info go to http://www.about-listeria.com

Just a small point. We got salmonella in eggs here too.<BR><BR>The advice to the pregnant is the same as in the US- no soft or blue cheese; no shellfish and no uncooked eggs.<BR><BR>mmm? Wonder if that's why I have no kids?

Whatsa matter Sheila, mad because no one paid any attention to your first post 5 hours ago about not having children because---because---because. Pitiful.

Skidoo, you idiot, OBVIOUSLY someone other than Sheila did a cut & paste of her post, as I doubt anyone here's ever seen her post EXAXCTLY the same thing twice. It's a time-honored tradition, instituted by resident troll-types on this board, like your bad little self. Get thee to a neurology clinic, or even better, a psych ward, you pretentious ninny!

While he/she was at it, did you OB also tell you that pregnant women are more likely to have a trombosis when flying? (re: economy class syndrome).<BR><BR>

Trombosis<BR><BR>The desire to play a trombone while flying in your 3rd trimester.

PG: I trust your specific question was clearly anwered by "clairobscur".<BR>Just a comment to the others: Thirty years ago, mothers who wanted to breastfeed in California were scorned. Their infants were kept in quarantaine as to not pose any health risk to others. Formula was the way to go.<BR>Today women who rather not, or cannot breastfeed due to circumstances beyond their control are treated as outcasts in the maternity ward.<BR>Why: IMHO the medical profession in the US has a tendency to overreact. Today it's yes, tomorrow it's no. <BR><BR><BR>

...how does one determine if a grocer (or anyone else) is 'knowledgeable'? <BR><BR>How can one know if someone is not passing on misinformation inadvertently? When I'm travelling and I ask for, say, geographic directions, the people I ask seem to be invariably kind and eager to help, but not necessarily accurate. (I've since learned, in critical situations, to ask at least two different people to cross-check the information given.) A grocer, like anyone else, is only passing on information that they might well believe to be true.... but may not be true. For example, recently it transpired in my home community that a sausage product from an independent meat packer had been labelled "100% beef" contained up to 20 per cent pork, a fact unknown by the local grocers distributing the product.

commonsense brings up a good point about medical personnel changing their tune. When we were expecting our first child 30 years ago, my wife was told to avoid salt, to gain less than 20 pounds, and to have a glass of wine with dinner to relax. When she had our last child, 15 years ago, she was told that moderate salt was OK, that it was OK to gain up to 30 pounds, but no wine. <BR><BR>Now that first child of ours is expecting, and she has nothing to go on but common sense. I think she plans to avoid raw-milk cheese but still take baths.

Most of the cheeses sold in France are made with pasteurized milk. When they are not, they are labeled "au lait cru". The French had to fight hard with the rest of the European Community to be allowed to produce soft cheeses from unpasteurized milk. Cheeses "au lait cru" tend to be more expensive, and they taste better.

Sorry Skidoo; it was a technical something. It was the last post I had made and when I hit the "refresh" button, it posted again.<BR><BR>I don't think that has happened to me before, but it happened twice yesterday

To answer PB's question, I don't know why my dr. recommended no more than 12 oz of fish per week -- she didn't explain that one. It may have something to do with the very recent (in the last year) warning in the US about certain kinds of fish containing high levels of methyl mercurcy -- which can be dangerous to a the brain of a developing fetus. PG women are now counseled to avoid tilefish, swordfish, and one other (I can't remember) and to limit tuna consumption. Perhaps the 12 oz of all fish per week was simply to avoid the possibility of eating local fish in France that also contain large amounts of mercury. In any event, I will follow up.<BR><BR>Thanks for all of the helpful advice about pasteurized vs. unpasteurized cheeses, undercooked eggs, etc. For those of you who feel the need to pooh-pooh the advice given by obstetricians, feel free to take whatever risks you wish when you (or your wives) are pregnant. But for me and my husband, who have been greatly anticipating this child, we will take the advice that *my* OB gives me for *my* situation.

Why exactly did you post this question in the first place ?

The latest word on fish to avoid because of mercury are swordfish, shark and marlin (added last week, I believe) -- logically, the guys at the top of the food chain, where the mercury would accumulate. The 12 ounces is the FDA's recommended average weekly intake for pregnant women.<BR><BR>http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/admehg.html<BR><BR>http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWER.../ANS01065.html

It is incroyable that a question ABOUT CHEESE has sparked such a controversy, including the nasties. I wonder what would have happened had the poster merely asked which cheeses are pasteurized/unpasteurized. As Gretchen pointed out, she was NOT asking for obstetrical advice or any kind of advice, merely factual info re CHEESE. Adieu!

Maman asks: &lt;I wonder what would have happened had the poster merely asked which cheeses are pasteurized/unpasteurized&gt;<BR><BR>Actually, I thought that's what she DID ask. But she wasn't being so presumptuous as to demand definitive answers from fellow travel board posters, so she asked whether anyone had any "thoughts" on this, i.e. on how to determine which chesses were pasteurized/unpasteurized. This was an interesting discussion, despite much nastiness and arrogant pontificating.

I'm French and once in a while, my friends and I, organize a d&icirc;ner de cons. When we can't find any good cons, we come to this forum to toy with the Americans. This cheese thing was great Fun.

A d&icirc;ner de cons= a game played by nasty bored people which involves inviting obnoxious or stupid fools to a dinner party without letting them know that they are being invited in order to be the subject of ridicule, and of competing with each other over who invited the biggest jerk. <BR><BR>(P.S. Let's not assume that Didier is French.)

Didier was the character in the French film the Dinner Game about asking someone to dinner and mocking him all night as entertainment by bored,self centered,conceited men..is that you,"Didier"?He was played by the French film star Theirry Lhermitte.

Whoever invites Didier wins, HANDS DOWN!!!!

Barzaletta! LOL-good one:)

...and my heart goes out to you, Didier, because the tables got turned on the would-be victimizer. In the film, and evidently on the board, too.

Didier<BR><BR>There was a similar occurrence in real life and the dunce pulled a gun and shot the Didier character in the balls. Didn't kill him but maimed him for life. Dunce got off on insanity plea.

Good thing Didier can hide in cyberspace.

From what I've heard about Didier the dunce will have to be an expert marksman to hit that little target.