Francophiles - please help w. pronunciation question
 

How would a French person pronounce "Veuve Cliquot" and "Taittenger"? I'm sure that "veuve" is like "peuple" and "aveugle", but my friend pronounces it voo-ehve. And I say "TATE-en-ZHAY", while she says it "TAT-in-jer". Of the two of us, I have more experience with French, but she looks at me pointedly each time she says them as if to correct me and it's started to drive me slowly insane. Any help, please?

I feel sure that you are right about Veuve. And I am not sure about Taittenger. There are personal names that carry over a pronunciation from some other country, if that family immigrated into France. But either way, I think it would be TET - - and I have a hunch that TET-in-jer actually is right. <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>Rex <BR>

You're right with Veuve I believe. I'm not sure about TaittEnger, but I've always pronouced Taittinger as TAYHT-een-gher. I'd believe the jer, though. <BR> <BR>Wine Spectator gives us "vuhv" . Can't find a citation for Taittinger. <BR> <BR>Where's a good French-speaker when you need them?

St. Cirque must be sleeping in!

Veuve is definitely to rhyme with peuple and i think vuhv is a reasonable way to try and give roughly the right sound... It's a longer vowel than vuhv suggests. <BR> <BR>I think your friend is pronouncing it as though it were vueve? Or has heard someone she thinks of as knowledgeable and is pronouncing it to copy them? <BR> <BR>Not sure about Taittenger as I think this is one of the exceptions - I dont think it is pronounced as it would be if you just read it as a normal french word. <BR> <BR>

Vuhv Kleekoe. Tett-on-zhay, if you want to have pure, traditional French accent but you can get away with some Brit-overtones on this one (tett-an-zher) in some circules. <BR> <BR>Tell your friend to take 2 courses: one in French and one in manners.

Veuve itself IS a French word and the champagne is pronounced just like that normal French word which you can look up in your French dictionary (last word normal rules, klee KOH. Your friend may be copying someone else who can't pronounce French, that's common particularly with vowels like this. For example, I went out with a guy who was trying to impress me with how worldly he was and how much more he knew about everything than I did, including Paris and French, because he'd lived in France a bit, did business over there, and had a French wife (emphasis on EX-wife), so he orders a wine at this French bistro and pronounced beaujolais as BOO-joe-lay!!! I think that's practically illiterate if you've lived in France, speak French to some degree, have studied it, and don't know basic pronunciation rules for vowel combinations. You friend would probably say BOO.... also from her pronunciation of VOOehve. I'm no big champagne lover so I'm not sure about Taittinger (note the correct spelling which makes your pronunciation wrong to some degree just for that reason, at least the middle syllable--I might quibble and say the first syllable isn't quite that long an a as in TATE because it's not an open final syllable (ie, not like the month of mai), but that's closer than the flat "a" as in TAT. I myself would pronounce that syllable similar to the vowel in the French word lait which may be the same as you mean by TATE. That is a French family from way back (hundreds of years), so I would presume the normal French pronuncation rules which would make all the "jers" wrong. However, that is a funny surname, it just doesn't look real French to me (but could be), so I'm not sure. That family is very rich and owns the Concorde hotel group, including the Crillon, as well as a winery in the US, so if you really want to know, I'll bet you could call up the PR office or customer info or something of Domaine Carneros whatever they are in the US in California. Here is a good bonus question, how does your friend pronounce Moët et Chandon? MOO-ay? If so, that's wrong, but a lot of people mispronounce that (I even heard the guy on the radio program Savvy Traveler, Rudy Maxa, pronounce that wrong once) get that wrong, especially if you don't know French well and ignore the trema which is a clue even if you don't know the "t" is pronounced. That name is from a Dutch family background apparently, so the last syllable is pronounced "et" not ay.

I've studied french for about 12 years now and have a degree in it (for whatever that's worth..lol). I would pronounce veuve, as you have stated. I would pronounce 'Taittenger', as tay-tahn-jay(tait-ten-ger) with no r sound and the end. (looks similar to what you were saying) YOu would not ever say 'tet' as Rex suggested when you have 'Tait' in the word. French usually sticks to its rules as far as pronunciation goes so when you see the 'ai', its usually 'ay' e.g. J'ai, jamais, pais, ecoutais, attendais etc. Hope that settles your debate.

When I was a junior at Dartmouth, I worked as a waiter in a French restaurant in Philadelphia one summer. We always said VOVAY KLEE-KOE and TAT-IN-JAY, but I have heard other waiters in French restaurants pronounce the latter as TAT-IN-JER. It is probably the same as "Louvre." I have heard my French friend say LOU-VRA, while I have heard other French citizens say LOUV.

"Veuve" - no problem. It is pronounced as Andrea and several others have suggested. "Vuhv" is pretty close, voo-ehve - definitely wrong, VOVAY!? - NO WAY! <BR> "Taittinger" poses a bit more of a problem. The family originally came from Lorraine so I suspect some Germanic roots there. "The Taittinger family had its roots in Lorraine, but left its native province in 1870 following the Treaty of Frankfurt and settled in the Paris area in order to retain its French nationality." (from www.taittinger.com ) The pronunciation of the name, however, is French. To be sure I checked with a native French speaker over on the bonjourparis message board. According to Christophe, it is pronounced tai - (rimes with mai, lait, the more open e sound); tin - (rimes with vin, main) je (with an acute accent, as in the last syllable of manger). Now, having said that, I'll bet you can find other native speakers who would pronounce it slightly differently. <BR> <BR>

Well, kel - - nothing sends me back to the books faster than someone calling me wrong. <BR> <BR>"ait" is a very UNcommon combination of letters in French - - in the MIDDLE of a word - - and in well known words, such as maître or connaître, there is a circonflex over the "i". Purists will say that this distinguishes the diphthong "aî" from the sound in "lettre" or "mètre" or "être". I'm not sure I "get" this difference. <BR> <BR>But it is not at all like the sound in "voudrait" or "plaît" (are these different because of the circonflex?) - - despite the tendency for Americans to say "MAY-ter DEE" or "MAY-truh-DEE" - - it is neither. It is "MET-truh-DEE". <BR> <BR>There are several words that begin with the letter "L" which do have "ait" in the middle without a circonflex - - "laiterie" (dairy) and "laitue" (lettuce), for example - - and both of these have the exact same sound as in "lettre" - - namely an "eh" sound. Neither has the same sound as "lait". <BR> <BR>I still don't know how the Taittinger family (or company) pronounces the name - - but it seems as likely to me as not that it starts with TET. <BR> <BR>Oh, and by the way, you, I, Andrea and others misspelled the name - - it has only one "e" - - as their website - - http://www.taittinger.com/introhtml.html- - attests. <BR> <BR>Pedantically yours... <BR>

StCirq was indeed sleeping in today, and attending soccer games and doing laundry. <BR> <BR>Veuve is pronounced like "neuh" ( between "nuh" and "new") plus the "v" which makes it "neuv" Clee-ko. <BR>Tet - ahn - jay (soft "j") <BR> <BR>Transliteration is a terrbly frustrating thing. Youreally need to hear it.

Isn't it funny that Betty is such a know-it-all when it comes to French even though she doesn't speak it. She gets all of her knowledge by asking someone on some message board. Betty probably couldn't even pronounce anything on the tasting menu at Lespinasse. There is a French word that comes to mind when I think of Betty; it is dilettante. Can you pronounce that, Betty? You say it like this:AMA-TURE! Au revoir, John G. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Umm...John G, Betty is a former French teacher, I believe, who adds considerable information to this board in a most gracious manner. That is much, much more than I can say for you.

My goodness, John, why so cutting? Just because I pointed out that “VOVAY” was no where near the correct pronuciation of “veuve”? Si la vérité vous intéresse, j’ai un M. A. en français de Middlebury Collège et j’ai enseigné le français pendant plus de trente ans, y compris un cours de AP French. J’ai passé deux années scolaires en France et j’y ai fait au moins une douzaine d’autres voyages pendant lesquels on m’a quelquefois prise pour une Française. Alors je pense savoir un peu mieux que vous comment on prononce les mots français. If you didn’t understand all that, I’m sorry. But that rather proves my point, too, doesn’t it? <BR> <BR>To Rex et al, the difference between the é sound (somewhat like “ay” but shorter and without the diphthong) and the è sound (more like “eh”) is a difficult one for Americans to make and to hear. The “ai” spelling in French is most often “è”, especially if in a syllable that ends with a consonant. Mettre, mètre, maître are all homonyms. If it is at the end of a syllable it is more often “é”, but not always. Mai, mais and met are also all pronounced alike. As a future tense ending it is supposed to be pronounced “é” as in “je parlerai”, whereas the conditional “je parlerais” has the “è” sound. But in practice I don’t think the French are very careful about this distinction. Context suffices to make the difference. As for those “l” words, lait and laiterie both contain the “è” sound but laitier and laitue should be pronounced with the “é” sound since the t belongs with the second syllable. Frankly, if confusing the “é” and the “è” sounds is the worst mistake an American makes in speaking French, he will be doing very well indeed. And you thought YOU were pedantic, Rex! <BR>

Betty, pour un français de souche qui se targue de parler correctement sa langue, la différence de prononciation entre Mai, mais et met, lait, laitue et laitier, est très nette, quoique très subtile. Vous avez toutefois raison, la majorité des locuteurs ne se donne pas la peine de différencier ces sons dans le parler de tous les jours, et personne n'attend d'un étranger (Américain ou autre) qu'il soit capable de prononcer correctement ces sons. <BR> <BR>Veuve sounds like "peuple" or "aveugle", it means "widow" and you should find its pronounciation in any dictionary with the international phonetic signs. <BR> <BR>Taittinger is originally German or Alsacian, and should be pronounced "Tate-in-gher", but we "French" (francise) it as "Tate-en-jay", like we do with Bofinger "Boh-fen-jay" (I wish there was sound on this forum ...) <BR> <BR>

Je vous remercie de cette reponse. I'll switch to English so that all may understand. We are in agreement on all points except one. According to my Petit Robert, which gives phonetic pronunciations, mai, mais, and met are all pronounced exactly alike. In fact under the word mai, they give as homonyms Maie (don't know this one, is it a city?), mais, mets, Maye (another city?) and formes du v. mettre. Do you think this is a mistake? <BR>BTW, does anyone know how we could find international phonetic symbols to use here or in Word? I had to do my last reply in Word and then paste it here in order to have even the accent marks. Could not find International Phonetic Alphabet anywhere (except to purchase). <BR>xxx, thanks for defending me. I feel as though I've been "baptized" now that I have been "flamed" (that is the term, isn't it?)on this board for the first time.

Betty, keep in mind that most of us think John G. made an utter jackass of himself -- first for suggesting that the pronunciation of college students waiting tables in Philadelphia might be in any way definitive, second for making such a basic error as adding an imaginary accented second syllable to "Veuve" (never mind converting "veu-" to "voo-"), and third for attacking you so clumsily once he'd been shown up to be far from correct. Not sure he ever made it out of sophomore year.... <BR> <BR>Reminds me of the time I was in a restaurant, ordering chablis, and a waiter kept repeating my order saying "chabliss" pointedly, as if I needed badly to be schooled in pronunciation. No tip there, either. <BR> <BR>Thanks, Betty.

Betty: <BR> <BR>Re accent: <BR> <BR>If you're using a Windows machine (probably W95 or more recent) you can install the <BR>United States-International Keyboard through the <BR>Control Panel/Keyboard/Language facility. It's a tad clumsy to use, but much more convenient than any alternative of which I know. <BR> <BR>John, of course, should be ignored. So many good people on here, but just like on the shoulder of any highway, one find a bit of trash also.

Thanks, all. I feel SO much better about Veuve Cliquot. I only have a pocket dictionary & veuve isn't in it. Honestly, we have VC every time we have dinner with this couple, and EVERY time, she's sure to come up with a sentence or two in which she has to say "VOO-ehve" as though she's trying to teach by example. "Fronk", I'll look into the manners class. And I'll continue to mumble Taittinger.

Andrea, next time, try to drink Dom Perignon ... <BR> <BR>Betty, a maie is a bowl or a plate used to knead dough or to store bread, a maye a stone vessel where freshly pressed olive oil pours in. Regarding "official" pronunciation, Petit Robert isnt the best reference, and I'll have to check in the Littré. I can however tell you that there is a marked difference in the way you pronounce "maie", "mai", and "met" (respectively mée, mé, and mè), but regional accents can also contribute to the confusion.

Thanks, Marcya and Tom. I looked at Keyboard/Language thing. Looks like it might help with accents but not with IPA which is a whole different set of characters, some of which are not used in any standard language that I know of. Accents are not really a problem as long as I am writing in Word. I appreciate the suggestion, though. And thank you, Florence, for teaching me some new vocabulary. I had wrongly assumed that, since these words were capitalized in the PR, they were proper nouns. Maybe I can't count on that dictionary as much as I thought I could. I did, however, find those words listed shortly after "mai."

Bonjour, <BR> <BR>I've been reading this topic with interest. One of my missions in life is to become fairly fluent in French, and I have recently spent quite a bit of time with the IPA and various texts and tapes in persuit of that effort. I especially appriciate Betty's excellent contributions to this discussion and Tom's note on installing the IPA. <BR> <BR>I was able to install the standard French, however I cannot find the IPA anywhere in the control panel for Windows ME. I do appreciate having the French keyboard readily available at as I do frequently type letters in Franch. All you need to do once it is installed is to hit the left {alt}and {shift} simultaneously and voila you have converted your entire keyboard to standadrd French. <BR> <BR>If anyone knows where you can find a list and install the IPA characters I would appreciate it. <BR> <BR>I realize that this is not a language BB per se, however for all of us who travel and especially those who do attempt to speak the language, I would like to see a little more of it. I also will attempt to add to the comments occasionally. <BR> <BR>Sincerely, <BR> <BR>Randy Smith

Andrea, <BR> <BR>The reason you probably could not find "veuve" in your French-English dictionary is that the dictionary more than likely lists the masculine form of the noun. In other words, check to see if your dictionary lists "veuf." This is the masculine "widower," and under that listing it will probably give you the feminine version of the noun, "veuve." <BR> <BR>Of course, masculinity and femininity in language are topics best left for another lesson. <BR> <BR>All the best, <BR> <BR>Rob <BR> <BR>PS: Let's not forget that "ai" can also form an "e" sound, as in "let." For example: aigle, aimer, and aile. That, I suppose though, is neither here nor there.

Wow, so much arguing on this board... Well, being a little bored here at work, I tried to find a web site that might have the pronunciation of Taittinger (yeah, i noticed the mis-spelling too after looking it up, and will admit i'm not a big wine conisseur either..lol) and I couldn't find anything, and very few (50ish) web sites for that matter. You'd think this would be a high priority detail!! <BR> <BR>Rex, I'm not trying to get into a debate with you about this, but casually questioning... are you sure about the pronunciation of laitier and laitue? I'm pretty sure that you still use the same 'lait' sound. If not, must be some rare exception.

Florence is right about the way Taittenger should be/is pronounced. <BR> <BR>However, I disagree with her opinion about maie, mai and mets. <BR> <BR>I would pronounce maie exactly like mai (and anyway it's such a rare word that it doesn't really matter). <BR> <BR>And concerning mets, though indeed it *should* be pronounced "mè", I'm sure that 98% of the population would pronounce it "mé". The others would appear as snobs (well...even merely using this word is likely to make you appear as snob, actually) <BR> <BR>I don't really think that people trying to speak french should bother with such insignificant differences that french people themselves ignore.

I hope this cut and pasting works. This is not ALL of the diacritical marks--just some that I thought I might occasionally like to have. (I think I first got this info. from Rex.) To produce these characters, hoild down thre "alt" key at the SAME TIME that you type the 3-digit number indicated on this list. (This works when you're using Windows on a PC. I don't know about Macs or other systems.) P.S. Hurrah, Betty!) <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>133 à <BR>131 â <BR>132 ä <BR>160 á <BR>138 è <BR>130 é <BR>144 É <BR>136 ê <BR>137 ë <BR>140 î <BR>141 ì <BR>139 ï <BR>149 ò <BR>147 ô <BR>148 ö <BR>162 ó <BR>150 û <BR>151 ù <BR>163 ú <BR>164 ñ <BR>165 Ñ <BR>135 ç <BR>128 Ç <BR>145 æ <BR>146 Æ <BR>168 ¿ <BR>155 ¢ <BR>156 £ <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Why would using the word 'mets' make you a snob in France? I'm just wondering.... isn't mettre, 'to put' as in to put something somewhere? And mets is just a conjugation of that, correct? I'm certainly not a francophone though, so I guess it may mean something else. This is a sincere question.

Hey carol, thanks! Always wondered how to do that on my good ol' american computer! <BR> <BR>

Im laughing my derriere off right now. Don't you mecs know when someone is being tongue-in-chic?? Doesn't anyone remember that Snapple commercial that was on a few years ago with all those Parisians arguing over how to pronounce something with "de la" in it?? The man at the ends says, "No, that is not right!" My points is this: Everyone pronounces things differently. People in the South (US) pronounce things differently than people in the North. People from Queens pronounce things differently than people from Scarsdale. The reason I excoriated Betty the way I did was her adamant belief that I was wrong and she was right! Does Betty deal with Veuve Cliquot? Does she work with it? Does she open bottle after bottle and pour it into people's glasses? I think people who are in the hospitality business would be better at knowing how to pronounce Veuve Cliquot, rather than someone who is a teacher. (Unless Betty is swilling Champagne with her students.).....And this is for the moron who said I worked at "some French restaurant in Philadelphia." That some restaurant was Le Bec Fin, one of the finest French restaurants in North America. Click on WWW.ZAGATS.COM and see what they have to say about it. Braissez mon derriere, mon frere! JG

John G, <BR> <BR>It seems that you did not a lot of the thread above. Someone in the hospitality business would know better how to pronounce "veuve"? You must not have a clue about what an advanced degree means - - and from MIDDLEBURY - - from gosh sakes (the Harvard of foreign language instruction). <BR> <BR>Moreover - - as was explained above, "veuve" is an ordinary word - - means "widow". <BR>

I graduated from Dartmouth in 1985, so Im not impressed by Middlebury. I am impressed with the Breadloaf School, however, which I doubt Betty Boop attended. Who cares if Veuve means widow? Like I said, some pronunciation is subjective. You people are a little too anal retentive for moi. It's time for a Chateau d'Yquem 1961 enema. JG.

Merci Betty et Florence..... Mais il y a personne ici qui a bien expliqué la nasalité et comment est que le son resonne dans nos chambres nasales. C'est une chose de l'oreille, n'est-ce pas? <BR> <BR>What's funny is that I usually get mistaken for a Francaise "du sud" or an etrangére of unknown origin. <BR> <BR>Andrea, love your question. Chin chin!

John G.: je suis surprise d'apprendre que la meilleure façon d'apprendre à prononcer Veuve Cliquot, c'est d'en verser bouteille après bouteille ... et vous êtes un grossier merle ! <BR> <BR>Clairobscur: I agree that 1) using the word "mets" will make you sound like a snob, or at least like some dinosaur, 2) that 98, or even 99,9999% of the French population couldn't care less about differences in pronouncing words ending in ai, aie, and et. I've discussed the subject out of curiosity with my mother and some collegues, who all confirm that's the way it was taught and paying attention to the pronounciation was supposed to give away the spelling and ethymology (sp?) of a word. I agree that this discussion is purely academic and has not much relevance to either everyday life or travel. <BR> <BR>Kalena: it would be better not to venture into the mystery of nasalisation in French. There is a good explanation in Molière's "Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme" ;-&gt; <BR>

Andrea, from someone who majored in French at University - you are right, your friend is wrong. <BR>Take comfort in that - she sounds like the sort of person who will go her own way, no matter what. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow. I don't know about you, but where I live you could spend half-an-hour trying to get a bottle of "grron marrnyay" (Grand Marnier)in a bottle shop if you insist on sticking to correct pronunciation, and then with no guarantee of success!!

OK....this is the last word.....I asked a wine distributor in Philly how you pronounce Veuve Cliquot. He said it is VOOV klee-COE. I think he should know. No more arguing, OK? Cheers, JG

What an amazing post. The biggest disaster in American history and the last entry was concerned with being the winner in a pronunciation argument.<BR><BR>On September 11.<BR>

What's a peuple?????????????And how does one prononce that???????

Peuple isa french word for people.<BR><BR>Maybe something pup'll but in as close to one syllable as you can pronounce it.<BR>

In case anyone wonders some day: Those instructions that I posted for typing the diacritical marks made sense when i posted them. However, Fodors did something a few months ago that changed the way many letter s and symbols show up. so what you see now is NOT what I typed at all. That's also why on many posts what were originally apostrophes and quotation marks show up as little squares now. One of Fodors' many "improvements."