France and Italy Itinerary Help
 

I'm planning a 16-day trip to France and Italy for mid-June. We'll be a group of 7, including my wife, daughters (ages 12 and 14), brother, and parents who are spry for being in their mid-70s. Here's the basic plan: 4 nights in Paris, 4 nights in either Annecy or Chamonix (or 2 nights in each town), fly from Geneva to Naples, 4 nights on the Amalfi Coast - maybe have Praiano as a home base, and 4 nights in Tuscany - maybe have Montepulciano as a home base. We'd then fly home from Rome.

Any advice on the best cities to stay in while on the Amalfi Coast or in Tuscany? How manageable are our travel days (particularly our idea to fly from Geneva to Naples rather than travel by train)? Any other suggestions? Thanks for any help you can provide!

Travel basics:
For every long distance "change of location", subtract at least 1 day from your total "nights" schedule. So you have 16 nights, but only 12 days "being there". For such a large group - I would also subtract time from a "standard" 8-9 hour "sightseeing" day, to 5-7 hours per day.

You'll be spending too much time "getting there", and not enough time "being there".

My advice - France or Italy. Not both.

See attachments.

Stu Dudley

Question -- have any of you been to France/Italy before?

Stu's point is important -- with a group that large everything (pretty much e v e r y t h i n g) will take longer.

4 nights in a place = 3 days. Will you be happy with just 3 full days in Paris - and some of you will be jet lagged for at least a day or two of that??

If you are flying home from Rome you will want to be IN Rome the night before the flight.

I agree with Stu. Your transfers are somewhat long and time-consuming. Traveling in a group of 7... young v. old, spry v. slow, doesn't matter... you can only move as fast as the slowest person. If there is jet-lag, half of your time in Paris could be impacted.

IMO, the time in Tuscany is too short to justify the logistics. I assume you'd rent cars for the Tuscany days, so where and when to rent? You don't want or need cars on the AC, and renting after the AC means you first have to get the group to another town with rental offices and then drive... The journey to Montepulciano could be a long, convoluted day. Even if you already had the car in Praiano, the drive could take up to 6 hours.... If the departing flight from FCO is noon or earlier, you might want to spend the last night closer to the airport. If you then only have 3 nights in Tuscany, the effort to get there really looks like too much.

I also agree with others that you have too many long-ish journeys, each of which will soak up lots of time. You are skipping past so many beautiful places enroute. Four nights in each place would be fine but I would choose destinations which are closer together and travel by train rather than flying within Europe. I recommend being in your departure city prior to any flight (especially with 7 tickets at stake) so that means staying in Geneva and Rome, with your current plan.

I'll chime in
firstly, how fantastic that all the family is fit and spry, what a great opportunity and again June is a good month.

I've managed larger groups and they kill so much time, but 7 is still a handful, especially assuming that they don't all speak the local languages and may well have the tendency to wander off, look at things, need a sit down. June will possibly also be warm so some people will want to swim, while others will want to explore. Finally 16 days is such a short holiday.

My advice is don't travel too much, each country has lots to offer and you are poping around all over the place. Can I suggest you go back to the books and look at some of the following groupings

Paris
Strasbourg/Colmar
Chablis/Auxerre
A fashionable ski resort (bring hiking boots and safe walking gear?)
Avignon/Arles/Camargue (really a very special day trip)

if you want to add Italy ( I wouldn't but you know what you want) then I might add the Cinque Terre and Genoa (the 5T drops you into Tuscany)
I guess you know about Airbnb and hotels, but you might like to see https://www.gites-de-france.com/fr who are good safe agency with lots to offer including "gites with pool". Now the benefit of a Gite is that you get a washing line and washing machine in many of them which means you don't have to bring 16 changes of clothes but can travel much lighter. If you want to access similar properties that may less well organised but a bit cheaper, you can also search on google maps for Gite and that gives you access to a whole bunch more. The term Gite is sometimes used in Italy too ( an internet thing) but they also use https://www.agriturismo.it type words thought strictly these should be farm stays, but portals are portals.

When I go on these short holidays I will often just use a carry-on for the whole holiday and wash clothes. With so many people this techinique is to be recommended. If your family struggle to do this. Get them to lay out everything they need on their bed, then get them to take off half, then half again until it fits in one bag.

I don't understand why you would travel from Annecy or Chamonix to the Amalfi Coast by flying from Genova. How were you planning to get to Genova? It's a very long and complicated trip to Genova from either town, and another long and complicated trip from Genova to the Amalfi Coast. For that matter, the trip from Paris to Annecy or Chamonix is no picnic either.

Could you tell us why you chose these particular destinations? Maybe we could suggest alternatives that would make your travel easier.

Are you planning to do most of your travel by train?

All the coming and going in your proposal suggests that you are trying to meet disparate desires within your group. What are these desires? What are the interests of the members of your group? Language abilities? Are any of you experienced travelers able to guide the group through the various transportation modes? Basically, what do you want to see (specifics, not regions) and what do you want to do when you are in a place?

I suggest only two bases, Paris and Italy (Naples or Sorrento). You will only need public transport, no car rentals, no complex multimodal days.

Independently of the itinerary and the means of transport, the Chamonix - Tuscani or Naples journey will take a wholel day:
Possibilities:
Train Chamonix or Annecy GVA, Plane GVA - FCO or NAP
Train Annecy - Chambery - Turin - Florence - Rome - Naples:
Bus Chamonix - Aosta - Turin, train Turin - Florence - Rome - Naples.

You may also check to fly from Paris to Naples and to backtrack up to Geneva by train.

Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate your feedback. I'll bring your suggestions back to the fam and we'll chew on it. I'll probably reply again with a revised itinerary and maybe you can give that a look too. Thanks!

Adding that 7 people and 7 people's luggage = more than one regular automobile.

Some other points about driving in Italy... If you're from outside the EU, drivers will need to get International Driver's Permits. Not a big deal and you may never need to present them, but they are required. Also, almost every town in Italy has something called a ZTL (zona traffico limitato). These are areas you can't drive into (with very limited exceptions) during most hours of the day, most days of the week. If you drive into the zone (sometimes well signed, sometimes not), even by accident, you'll likely receive a citation in the mail after you get home. Multiple violations of the zone will mean multiple citations, so make sure you know what to look for.

https://mominitaly.com/ztl-in-italy/

Also, there have been driving restrictions on the Amalfi Coast road over the past two years. Basically, non-residents could drive the road only on alternate days based on the car's license number. Hotel guests could drive the road only to arrive and depart and not for general sightseeing. I don't know what might be in place in 2024, but if past restrictions are continued it really tips the balance against having a car while visiting the coastal towns... not to mention the ridiculous summer traffic.

A bit more re driving in the ZTL's . . . Not only will there be a fine in the mail once you get home, the rental car agency will charge an administration fee for providing your details to the Italian authorities.

More "travel basics" to consider when re-doing your plan:

- Never be in a city in either France or Italy on a Sunday or Monday morning. Almost all the shops your crew might want to browse through will be closed. And most "nice" restaurants will be closed also (exceptions are Sunday lunch). When shops close, the lights are off and often shutters will be pulled down over the shop windows. So you can't "window shop". The city might look quite depressing then. Cities mentioned here that will be mostly closed on Sun & Mon include Annecy (farmer's market in Old Annecy is Sunday), Strasbourg, Colmar, Montepulciano, Chablis, Auxerre, Avignon, & Arles. Exceptions are touristy/resort cities like the Amalfi coast villages, and perhaps Chamonix. There are ALWAYS things to do in Paris on Sundays. But except for the Marais and some super touristy regions like the Latin Quarter & Isle St Louis, most shops will still be closed. Bon Marche might be open also.

- Car rental offices are often closed during lunch, and partially or totally closed on Sat & Sun.

- Don't assume you can have a dinner at a "nice" restaurant at a time of your choosing. Most restaurants don't start serving until 7:30 or 8:00. Same for lunch (11:30-2:00). You can usually find a fast food place or a simple cafe open. We often grab sandwiches at a boulangerie for lunch.

- Use this site for estimating driving times https://www.viamichelin.com/
Add 10% to the time for distances that are longer than 3 hours. We've visited the Amalfi Coast 4 times - staying in Positano, Capri, and Ravello. It is a nightmare driving. Don't even consider a large car. Once, we got "pinned" to a cliff by one of the buses that travel along the coast, and it took us 30-45 mins to get free.

- Use this site to determine train schedules
https://int.bahn.de/en
Schedules are often not available for more than 3-6 months in the future. So use a more current date, but make sure you use the day of the week you might travel. Weekend schedules are sometimes different than weekday schedules.

- Many museums in France are closed either Monday or Tuesday. Some are closed for lunches too. Castles are often closed 1-2 days a week and sometimes at lunch also.

Stu Dudley

Within the past 2 weeks, we've received 2 notifications from Hertz that 2 traffic citations are on the way.

The International Driver's Permits is also required for France.

Stu Dudley

To get something of similar feel to your original plan, you could perhaps consider some combination of Paris - Annecy or Chamonix - inland Provence - Cote d'Azur or Ligurian coast (not Cinque Terre, which is reportedly insanely busy nowadays). You could maybe fly in/out Paris and Nice or Genoa (or vice versa). But Europe is so full of wonderful places to visit that there are a million possibilities, all without travelling as far as even this. I'd only get car/s if you prefer to visit places which are not accessible by public transport.

We spent a week near Chamonix a few years ago. We were there the second week in July, and departed a few days before the Tour de France went through the village we stayed in. We could see Mont Blanc from our gite - kinda. Attached is a weather write-up of what we experienced. It is very "iffy" to plan a trip to Mt Blanc for just a few days. It could be "whited out" for the entire time you are there.

In the attachment, I provided a link to the fantastic gite where we stayed. We have rented 80 Gites in France, for a total of about 130 weeks. This was one of the best.

Stu Dudley

I agree with everyone else here. You need to simplify and also cut down your destinations. I’m younger than your parents by a fair amount, swim 1000 yards 4/week, weights an hour twice a week and walk over 10,000 steps a day and your itinerary would exhaust me after a few days. Also if you pack like most Americans you are going to need to rent 3 cars for 7 people not two.

You are getting lots of advice and information, all of which, I agree with.

General advice from my experience.

Unless it is very near a place of major interest, it is nearly always a bad plan to arrive or depart from a city in which you have no interest visiting. It is often a big waste of time getting there or getting to other places, as well as you spend money just staying in a hotel.

You have allotted equal time to most places. All places are not equal in time needed. Some places have only one or two things of major interest. Others are so filled, you could spend a year. Allocate time based on what things you want to do in each place and how much time each thing will take. Consider if there is enough of interest in a place to justify the amount of time and effort required (for the group) to travel there?

A couple traveling on their own can go at a fast pace for a week or so. After that, things become a blur, even for them. It is not possible for a group to travel fast and enjoy it unless everything is super organized as on a tour where details (like how to get places) are taken care by someone else.

Rather than attempting to see places so far apart that require time consuming, expensive, carefully planned, travel, you may have a better experience by choosing two (at the very most, three) major areas and concentrate on other, worthwhile sights that are nearby.
An example: You mention Tuscany for three days. Do you want to see Florence, Siena, Pisa, Luca, countryside? Consider how best to get to those places with the group. You need a place that will be interesting and convenient for everyone in case everyone does not want to go sightseeing every single day. It will be hot. Consider in at least one of your locations (Tuscany or Amalfi Coast) to have a place with a pool for late afternoons. I would try to begin in Italy and end in Paris. Can you fly into Naples?

*********
There is information from you that would be really helpful with assessing your itinerary and making suggestions that would work to give you and your family the best possible options for a memorable experience. There is no point in giving you advice you do not need.

Have you or members of your group traveled to Europe before? If so, where? Have you traveled by train in Europe?

What is the major focus of the trip for the group and individuals? History? Food? Art? Archeological sites? Culture? Family time? Expose the teens to Europe? Etc?

What is the number one place you all want to visit?
Why did you choose the places you did? Are they places one or more of you has always dreamed of seeing? Are they places you have read about or seen in a movie or other people said you must see?
Are there things you specifically want to see in each place?

IMO, itineraries by committee usually turn out awful. Most newbies select places anywhere in Europe with no consideration for how long or how difficult it is to get there.

My wife & I retired early in 1999 so we could travel more. We are your parent's age. Since then, we've spent 2 months in Europe every year (except COVID years). About 85% of our time has been spent in France, 10% in Italy, & the remainder "elsewhere". We rent gites while in France (houses with kitchens, multi bedrooms, living room, garden, often pools) and usually stay 2 weeks in a single spot before moving on to another gite (within a 3 hr drive), for 2 more weeks. We've spent countless months in Paris (Christmas there 4 times).

If someone asked me for a 16 night itinerary for 3 generations of a family, I would recommend:

- Fly to Nice, France & stay 5 nights there. No car. Visit Nice, and (by bus) Menton, Villefrance, & villa Ephrussi de Rothschild Home & Garden. Skip Monte Carlo. Each person could do their own thing in Nice. Teens could spend a day at the beach while adults could visit the Matisse & Chagal Museums. PLENTY to do in Nice. We rent apartments in Nice, but before we rented apts, we stayed at the the Hotel Windsor. Great location - and as the name implies, they speak English. We have vacationed for 21 weeks along the Cote d'Azur. Going back for 3 1/2 more next June.

- Taxi to the Nice airport and rent 3 cars. Drive 2 1/2 hrs to St Remy de Provence and stay 6 nights there. See my attached itinerary for things to do & see in Provence. We've spent 27 weeks in Provence. We were there for 4 weeks this past June.

- Drive to the Avignon TGV station, return the car, and take the TGV to Paris. Spend 5 nights there & fly home from Paris..

Comments:

Normally I would advise time in Aix & Provence on the way to St Remy. But with a gang of 7 and having just departed Nice (a city) and you'll be in Paris soon (another city) - I would just visit the countryside, canyons, lavender fields, & hill villages in Provence.

I would also have suggested 3 nights in St Remy & 3 nights in the Luberon countryside for your Provence stay. But St Remy alone is a better fit for a large & diverse group.

See attached.

Stu Dudley

I think Stu’s itinerary is a reasonable one. There are however other options such as Paris-Tuscany -Rome that would work.

How does one get from Paris to Tuscany in less than 3 hrs. All the travel times I suggested were less than 3 hrs.. The Val d'Orcia in Tuscany is perhaps our favorite "non-Paris" spot in all of Europe. But it takes some doin' to get there. Much more difficult/time consuming than Provence or the Cote d'Azur - assuming Paris is in the itinerary.

Stu Dudley

There are two points of entry from France to Italy :
- the French Alpes : I recommend visiting them in winter when there is snow if you guys like skiing, or in summer during the hiking season.
- the French Riviera (Provence) : I think it is the most wonderful region of Europe (especially Luberon, Alpilles, Côte d'Azur) : https://www.provenceweb.fr/e/index.htm
I recommend Provence in April/June and September/October when it's not overcrowded and not too hot.

I do not understand the reason for a 3 hour limit for moving from one destination to another. If the op wants to spend some time in Italy as well as France they can fly directly from Paris to Florence in about an hour and 45 minutes. Spend something like 5 nights in Paris than move on to Tuscany for the rest of their time with the last destination of Rome for at least one night before flying home.

We never fly inter-europe. IMO, it wastes too much time and adds too much stress. I make sure my itineraries don't box me into a corner where an inter-europe flight is necessary. If so - I change the itinerary. The only time we found it necessary, was a connection from SFO to FRA to Florence. When we boarded for Florence, they would not allow our carry-on luggage into the passenger cabin. We had to "check it in" at the gate to the plane. Ours is small compared to others, but too big for this puddle-jumper. We rented a car in Florence, but the rental office was too far from the airport so we had to take a cab. And it was a bit difficult navigating out of Florence. Imagine doing this for 7 people - 2-3 cabs to CDG or Orly, 2-3 cabs in Florence.

There is no magic in 3 hours limit. It is just a rule of thumb for me. If I have a "move" longer than 4 hours - I change the itinerary.

The TGV from Avignon to the Gare de Lyon in Paris is simple. The station is easy to get to, turning in the car is a no-brainer, finding the departing track is easy, and no luggage check-in or pick-up. We often have meals at the Gare de Lyon Tran Bleu restaurant - which I consider to be a "sight-seeing" destination. In June, we took the TGV from Avignon to Paris & dined at Train Bleu. We took 5 trips to/from the Gare de Lyon & southern France this year & last.
https://www.le-train-bleu.com/en/

Stu Dudley

Internal Europe flights, check out of hotel often at some god-awful hour, travel to airport, get through security, wait for flight, fly, wait for security travel to next city centre check in.

Kills half a day everytime

Train, leave hotel at a civilised hour, wander to train, board, drink coffee, arrive, walk to hotel. Often faster than aircraft.

Stu I do not disagree with your premises and take the train most times over flying. 5 1/2 hours train from Copenhagen to Stockholm last year as an example. In this case however if the OP wants to visit Tuscany and Paris, it’s 1:40 min direct flight vs 9 hours by train with connection.

In fact I am currently on a train from
Kyoto to Nara. Interesting. Our train came into the station and the passengers disembarked on the other side. A man than came through the cabin and switched all the seats in reverse so we would be facing the direction the train was traveling. Lastly cleaning people came through than we were let on.

I would never take a train for more than 5 hours. But I would revise the itinerary before I would take a plane.

If the OP wants to visit Tuscany from Paris - I would advise him to forget either Paris or Tuscany and do something like Venice, Tuscany, Rome or the Paris/Cote d'Azur/Provence plan I proposed. The 1 1/2 hr flight door-to-door is going to consume most of the day for 7 travelers with typical "too much" luggage. I also suspect most of them are not experienced foreign travelers (do they speak/read both French & Italian?).

Stu Dudley

It is always nice to help someone figure out the best way to achieve their travel objectives. Sometimes their objectives are not all possible or workable, so next thing is helping with advice or how best to revise their itinerary to still come as close as possible to their goals. I think the OP is underestimating how many days they have and travel time. They have 16 nights, not 16 days, etc. They will need to think seriously about modes of travel for getting from base to base and for sightseeing, and how that will affect lodging location. They need to realistically calculate total travel times, not just flight or train times. IMHO, they will need to cut something, perhaps even reverse the itinerary, but what depends on their most important interests. When the OP returns with more information, they can be given options.

The OP already said that he will take all the suggestions back to his family and come back with a revised itinerary.

^^^ this ;) -- most posts since #10 three days ago are just arguing with each other over who travels smarter. Let's wait to see what the OP comes up with . . .

Wow, what a lively discussion! Again, I appreciate everyone's input. It's been very helpful.

This won't be our first time traveling to Europe, but we also aren't seasoned travelers. As a few of you have said, we're trying to hit a few places each family member wants to visit. Yes, it will lead to more "getting there" and less "being there", but we are a diverse group and will have to each make some compromises. My brother and older daughter really want to visit the Alps, thus the stop in Chamonix/Annecy. My wife and younger daughter really want to visit Italy. My mom and dad want my girls to see both France and Italy. I'm cool staying in one country, but we have to all agree on a plan.

The thing we liked about our original itinerary was that we'd spend some time in a big city (Paris), some time in the mountains (French Alps), some time on the beach (Amalfi Coast) and some time in small hillside towns (Tuscany). We like the idea of a variety of different environments.

I suggested we get that experience by staying in one country (France), but again, my family REALLY wants to spend time in both countries. So, we will.

Here's the new plan, which isn't very different from the old one, we just removed Tuscany from the equation. You probably won't like this plan either; maybe we can't be helped.

June 15-19 Paris
June 20 - Travel day. Leave Paris and take the train to Chamonix
June 21-23 Chamonix with a day trip to Annecy?
June 24 - Travel day. Chamonix to Sorrento - Is this even possible in 1 day? If so, best mode of travel?
June 25-28 Sorrento
June 29 Travel day. Travel to Rome
June 30 full day in Rome
July 1 - fly home

Does anyone have an alternative suggestion for how to meet our desire to get a bit of France and Italy, AND hit the mountains, coast, small towns, and a big city while reducing travel time? Be gentle.

A few other notes:

• We don't speak French or Italian. My girls speak Spanish.
• We won't likely rent a car, but we haven't really looked into the details of how to get to each destination yet. I know that's important.
• We're in it for a bit of everything: food, culture, art, archaeology, scenery.

Hi craigvattiat2624,

To get from Chamonix to Sorrento, take the bus from Chamonix to the Geneva airport, then fly to Naples and get transportation from there to Sorrento. Sorry I've never been to Amalfi Coast, but others will be able to advise you.

Train info in France: sncf.com is the website of the national rail service, and others here like trainline.com.

Have fun as you plan!

s

You're going to waste a lot of time with the distance between all these places, but if you insist...
While five days is in no way too much for Paris, take one day from there and add it to Rome.

"""but we haven't really looked into the details of how to get to each destination""

That is very obvious!!!

You are dreaming!!!

Stu Dudley

This is a little bit like putting lipstick on a pig but I suppose you could skip Paris and fly into Geneva, do what you want in the alps than fly to Naples as suggested above. You than hire a small bus and driver to take you to Sorrento, spend your time in the AC than onto Rome for your big city experience.

Sorrento is a 12-hour drive from Chamonix, and I don't think it would be possible in one day by public transportation. Also, remember that Chamonix is also a long haul from Paris, something like 6 hours and 3 changes of train. Every change of train is an opportunity for something to go wrong and screw up your whole itinerary. Miss one connection and you might be stuck overnight in some town you never heard of.

I have a few alternative suggestions that might satisfy all your requirements.

June 15-19 Paris

June 20th

1st option Fly to Bergamo (Easy Jet or Ryanair). The Italian Alps are just at your doorstep there. Maybe you could rent a car there, or take a bus to an Alpine village. Maybe necker could advise on this. Or you could stay in Bergamo and take day trips into the mountains.

2nd option Fly to Venice. Spend the night there and take the express bus to Cortina d'Ampezzo the next day. Cortina is a ski resort, but you can rent a car or take a bus to a mountain village.

I would have a slight preference for the second option, which is a bit easier transfer-wise, and would give you a glimpse of Venice, robbing a day from your next destination.

June 24 - Travel day to Sorrento from wherever. This will still be an arduous trip, but much better than the trip from Chamonix.

June 25-28 Sorrento
June 29 Travel day. Travel to Rome
June 30 full day in Rome
July 1 - fly home

Sorrento is not on the Amalfi Coast, but it can be a base for excursions to various Amalfi Coast towns, as well as Capri and Pompeii.

I would strongly advise skipping the Amalfi Coast altogether and substituting either a town on the Ligurian Coast or one of Italy's great lakes. I don't see that anyone in your group specifically wanted to see the Amalfi Coast. It's not really a beach destination anyway, with small rocky beaches. My choice would be Lake Garda, easily reached from Venice, or Lake Como, convenient to Bergamo. If you want a sandy beach, to lie in the sun and swim in the water, there are tons of other choices. Italy has 7,500 km of coastline.

I also second the previous suggestion to take a day from Paris and add it to Rome. In that case, move all the dates above to one day earlier.

Whether you travel by car or by train, you will have to keep luggage to a bare minimum. The luggage of seven people won't fit into a normal car, or even a normal van, unless you restrict the sizes. On a train, especially the local trains that arrive in small villages, you won't find generous storage space. Also getting all seven people with large suitcases on an off trains, and to the track of your next train, is problematic.

I would rigourously enforce a limit of one small suitcase for each person, about 50 cm (20 inches) high. In addition a small daypack or purse for each person. (This will be useful for excursions, either in cities or on hiking trails.)

Liguria is the answer, somewhere like Sanremo or Savona or Imperia are just as pretty, good beaches, nice restaurants just international tourists.