Fodor’s is now Anti-Gay
 

I’ve been a Fodorite for some time, but I now may have to switch my allegiance. For one thing, Fodor’s keeps changing the format of their Gold Guides. I know that they have to update them – make them look new to keep people buying year after year, even when the information doesn’t change all that much – but the books are getting less and less user-friendly.

I was recently browsing through two brand-new Fodor’s guides: Spain 2008 and just-developed Eastern & Central Europe. The Smart Travel Tips section has been revised for the worse. I kept looking through it for gay travel advice until I realized that there wasn’t any. I turned to the individual cities’ Nightlife sections and there was absolutely no information about the gay scene anywhere (anywhere I checked, anyway). I’ve been through Central Europe, which has a lively gay scene, so Fodor’s does its readers a disservice by not mentioning it. I’ve never been to Spain so I was curious to know which destinations would be more gay-friendly. All the book did was pay lip-service to the notion that Spain was tolerant.

I can’t explain this move. There are no good travel guides designed exclusively for gay and lesbian travelers (the ones I’ve seen seem to be designed for sex tourists). Gay travelers need certain information before they travel overseas. For example, the 2007 Fodor’s Caribbean guide had some very useful advice for gay travelers – that Puerto Rico had the only lively gay scene in the Caribbean and that the former British colonies are violently anti-gay (in other words, gay travelers are in physical danger there).

Perhaps Fodor’s fan base has grown more conservative. Maybe it sees its home-base as families. Yet, I fail to see why Fodor’s would suddenly alienate a demographic that is known for its love of travel and its disposable income.

Gay travelers would fare better with Lonely Planet.

So makes Fodors "Anti-Gay"?

I finally had a chance to see some of the new Fodors Gold Guides by browsing the Waterstone's on Piccadilly (Fodors guides are not sold in most British bookstores). I didn't notice the lack of gay travel advice, but now that you've pointed it out, you're right, nothing was included. TimeOut guides generally include gay travel sections (clubs, general advice, etc.), better than Rough Guides IMO, but then I don't particularly care for the Rough Guides, period.

The thing I didn't like about the new Fodors GG was the way they used our postings. I've been quoted in a few books and it's nice to see your name on a chapter opening page but...I think readers would be better served if the guides used MORE posts and sprinkled them throughout the chapters at relevant points, rather than just a precious few at the front of each chapter. Even if using more posts means eliminating the much-appreciated complimentary guidebook reward :-(

Rather a confrontational first post Mr Ripley. I just did a search for 'gay' on the Europe board and 100+ references came up.

Does the fact that somebody is 'gay' matter when touring? Only if your behaviour is overtly 'gay' I suspect when it becomes a public display, and as you might know better than me, different people react differently to that. I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.

Bye bye, off to the Rough Guide with you.

I've never understood this. What about including tips for blacks, or Jews? Surely there are other groups that could have specific travel tips included for them, and a lot of them more directly related to travel concerns (such as for the mobility impaired).

welcome tom

You've confused me. Are you saying that Fodor's previously included references for gay travelers in their guides but have now removed them?

stfc says:

>I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.<

Ummmm, I think you are already pretty well served with guides presently available. No need to feel offended :S-

joe

&quot;<i>I’ve been a Fodorite for some time, but I now may have to switch my allegiance. </i>&quot;

If so, then you are either a coward and changed your screen name to post this - OR - you are not telling the truth about being a member for &quot;some time&quot;.

&quot;<i>Perhaps Fodor’s fan base has grown more conservative. </i>&quot;

OMG!! - Have you taken a look in the Lounge??

BTW - to show how ridiculous this is -- click on DESTINATIONS above. The very first nightclub listed in Paris is 3W - &quot;a pillar of the lesbian scene&quot;

I don't feel anyone is anti-disabled because guides lack of good info for disabled travellers.
But at the same time I don't expect general guides to have info for every kind of traveller...but the average one. They are supposed to sell a lot of guides ;)

To say that Fodor's is anti-gay because there is perhaps a dearth of gay travel stuff included is simply rubbish - why as you claim gay travel stuff is not covered in more depth may be for many reasons but not IMO because &quot;Fodor's is now Anti-Gay&quot;

You raise good points in your text but your headline is very off-putting.

Hmm…I was expecting the bigoted backlash, but not quite so quickly. Of course, these posts are generally poor in quality (consider JeanneB’s grammatical monstrosity: ‘So makes Fodors &quot;Anti-Gay&quot;?”’) But, since people have time on their hands, there are a few things that should be pointed out:

1. First, stfc, my tone was factual, not “confrontational.” There has been gay travel advice in every Fodor’s guide I’ve seen until this new crop of just-published books. My post (1) alerts gay travelers that this is no longer the case and that they should buy other guides and (2) may make the good people at Fodor’s reconsider their egregious editorial decision.
2. Again, stfc, there are many Internet hits for “gay Europe.” But, if that argument were not fallacious, why would anybody need to purchase any travel guide at all. I always check the Internet as well (usually the sites that Fodor’s recommends, although they’ve left off even that information this time around) but we buy Fodor’s guides because they are (or were) reliable guides written by trusted travel writers, employed by a brand we trusted. It says something rather unfortunate when Wikitravel.org now provides better information that Fodor’s.
3. Lastly, stfc (is that you Bill O’Reilly?), you make the wild claim that “I could be offended that there are no guides aimed at fairly well-off straight happily-married middle-class white people whose children have fled the nest and have no interest in lounging around on beaches. But I'm not, I got over it.” Well, my dear delusional middle-aged friend, that’s because ALMOST ALL TRAVEL GUIDES ARE AIMED AT YOU. Enjoy your complacency – I honestly don’t begrudge it you. (Although, the fact that you are familiar with Rough Guides says a bit about your extracurricular interests.)
4. Twk, you are right – there should be travel tips aimed at blacks, Jews, and the handicapped. Actually, I forgot to check – usually, Fodor’s does include travel tips for differently-abled persons, but they may have done away with that as well. If Jewish or black people are in physical danger if they travel to certain parts of the world (as I believe they are) it is their right – actually, their duty – to know about it beforehand. There are some parts of the world apparently where homosexuality is a criminal act and may be punishable by the death penalty (Wikitravel “Gay and Lesbian Travel”). If any of us are foolish enough to go to these places and act “overtly ‘gay’” (to use stfc’s term) by holding hands, then we may be in a bit of trouble. For that reasons, interesting travel destinations such as Poland and the Cayman Islands now seem a bit less interesting.

All this leads the average homosexual to ask: Where can I go on holiday where I am welcome? That’s a question Fodor’s no longer answers. I know, we homosexuals are a troublesome lot. Why can’t we just go back in the closet?

Joe:

Sorry, didn't see your post there. Yes, Fodor's always has included Gay Travel Tips before - now they have removed them. That's why this seems to be such a calculated act.

Thanks for the post!

Tom

&lt;Where can I go on holiday where I am welcome?&gt;

Cologne, Germany.

I guess I don't get this, either. Gays want to be treated like everyone else (and they should be), but they require special travel information...isn't that akin to some kind of disability?

And I think the leap from lack of information to &quot;anti-gay&quot; is pretty huge.

I guess Fodors isn't the right guidebook for you. Considering the number of different guidebooks available and everyone's varying travel requirements, that happens to all of us. Shrug.

Janis J:

Yes, I did cancel my Fodor’s account a while ago because I got disgusted with people who just wanted to pick fights with other posters and not talk about the realities of travel. Well Janis, you’ve shown me how wonderful the habitual Fodor’s posters can be.

I’d decided to stick with the books instead, but even those have now sadly degenerated. If you don’t believe me, check out the new London guide and compare it to one from five years ago.

The worst travel writing restricts itself to compliments: “beautiful white sand beaches” and the like. Responsible writers point out problems with destinations, guide books, and the act of traveling itself. It has been my experience that, whenever anything unflattering about any destination is written on this website, people viciously pounce on it. That is why I no longer visit the Talk section.

I did want to make this post however because I know that the Fodor’s editors (particularly Doug Stallings – good guy) visit these chatrooms. If he knows his readers are displeased, he may be instrumental in changing their policy back to what it was. This is a business after all.

Hmm…I was expecting the bigoted backlash, but not quite so quickly.

bigoted = if you do not agree with tomripley like in Ripley, Believe Me or Not

Long-time Fodorite first ever post? Something is rotten in Denmark and i'm getting a good whiff of it over here

Again valid points but terrible throwing around terms like bigoted and Fodor's is anti-gay.

Thanks grrr! I’ll look into it.

StCirq - you should really read the posts and not just the headline if you want to participate in the discussion. Yawn.

If my choice of the “anti-gay” headline were wrong (which it isn’t) then why has this post generated such a flurry of activity in the brief time it has been up? I doubt if I would have gotten the same response to a post entitled: “Fodor’s new guides make me feel blue.”

Tom - how do you cancel your Fodor's account? What account?

It seems that tomripley could well be a fake name of someone who may actually be on the Fodor's guides staff and is airing sour grapes here - just a hunch.

something does not pass the smell test of tomripley even though again he/she seems to have very valid complaints

the evasive MR Ripley: You did not address my point that the VERY first recommendation in Fodor's on-line guide to Paris is a Lesbian club??

Or this about Cafe Cox &gt;&gt;Caf&eacute; Cox is a prime gay pickup joint. Behind the smoked-glass windows men line the walls and appraise the talent.&lt;&lt; Hardly seems &quot;conservative&quot; to me . . . . . .

You don't actually USE a Fodor's Travel Guide, do you? Oh, you silly boy.

Even though I have been posting here for over 8 years and have been quoted in multiple Fodor's guides, I never use them.

I get all my info. on travel from specific Fodorites right here.

If I am looking for a gay venue, I usually post a thread here to find info. I would never rely on some out-of-date guide (so many aren't even updated, just reprinted from year to year).

Time Out, as mentioned above, is a good source of gay info. on a particular city.

Thingorjus,
Patricia Highsmith Fan

Well..you are talking about life threatening places for gay people...and you have looked at a Spain guide. No wonder why you didn't find such an information. There's not such a problem here. You can go wherever you want but if you want a specifically gay scene you won't have to look for it too much. No need for a guide,really.

Of course Tom Ripley is not my real name. The reason why anyone shouldn’t use his/her real name on an Internet chat room should be obvious from the above responses.

Tom Ripley is a literary allusion to another gay traveler.

Kenderina:

You wrote: “Well..you are talking about life threatening places for gay people...and you have looked at a Spain guide.”

You are right and I am duly chastened. I just extrapolated from the few new guides that this is policy now – and a disturbing policy at that.

Yet, gay travelers still need to know a little about the destination. If the single gay traveler goes to Vienna thinking “I’ll just research the gay scene when I get there,” then he is going to be in for an unwelcome surprise when he gets there and finds that there is no gay scene to speak of. He’ll probably see all the building there and then switch plans and head to Prague for the rest of his trip.

PalenQ, you can cancel your screen name etc by clicking your profile link. I think that is perhaps what tom meant.

Tom, I can't give you an answer but I do hope you get one. I agree with what you say, the new guides are not just as comprehensive as previous editions. Perhaps the editor's scissors were used unwisely. I don't know.

Also, it could well be that Fodor's are reaching the stage of thinking that their written guides compliment their website information rather than the other way around. I suppose it is all down to costs these days when it must be cheaper operating a travel website than to print guides.

joe

Proenza Preschooler:

Yes, I am a silly boy. I do (or used to) use the guidebooks. I just like them. I like keeping them with me as I walk around. (I need the maps too!)

You make good points – and I do use the Internet as well. Not so much this site anymore, lest my question – “Where do I find the gay bars in Berlin?” – be met with the usual response: “Why don’t you hang out with everybody else?”

I just hope Fodor’s will change back so I can continue foolishly giving them my money.

Janis J:

I just saw your last response. The reason why it is a bad idea is that it is terribly inefficient. Maybe Fodors.com does identify a few lesbian bars when you click on them, but that is not the same thing as listing them in the book. Also, even the website has rather poor information now.

Also, by pointing out that I should rely on the website rather than the books validates my point. One is more likely to carry a guidebook than a laptop on holiday, and they are much better for spontaneous use.

Who the hell is Bill Reilly? Oh, I've googled him, he's American so no I'm not.

Bigotted, I don't believe so. What I do think is that you get enjoyment from wallowing in the concept that you are in an abused minority.

I have absolutely no interest in your proclivities and you need have no interest in mine.

Yes, I have a couple of Rough Guides, and a couple of Frommers guides as well. Is there something I've missed? Tell me about my 'extracurricular interests'.

My 2008 Fodors Paris Guide has a section on Gay and Lesbian Bars and Clubs.

Otherwise, would a gay man or woman not want to read a guide book that is about a city , rather than who is visiting?
I mean, if an adult male goes to Paris , he doesn't have to be gay or straight to enjoy that city! Monuments and museums and boulevards are not gender/gay/straight specific ..

I think if an area is known to be dangerous, most guide books would publish that, not directing it at gays specifically but because it is a dangerous place.

Perhaps Fodors is just accepting Gay people as the same as all people, figuring we all enjoy the same sights, foods, etc...according to what we can afford more or age specific, rather than gay/straight.

I tend to look for the Good side of things..I would think a company as big and successful as Random House would know what they are doing..they are not going to be offending the gay population purposely.

I liked Tom Ripley, even if he was kind of creepy ... :)

Proenza_Preschooler

By the way, I’m sure you really are “thin and gorgeous!”

Keep reading! You’re the only one to get the allusion.

Not so much this site anymore, lest my question – “Where do I find the gay bars in Berlin?” – be met with the usual response: “Why don’t you hang out with everybody else?&gt;

but there is no record of you ever asking any questions

this is your first post?

something not computing there

Stfc wrote: “Who the hell is Bill Reilly? Oh, I've googled him, he's American so no I'm not.” Only Bill O’Reilly would try to throw us off the scent like that!

I have no interest in trying to refute your opinions – they speak for themselves.

PalenQ wrote:

“but there is no record of you ever asking any questions

this is your first post?

something not computing there”

One more time – yes, this is a new screen name. I cancelled my old one months ago for reasons already described.

This is my first new post.

Well personally I don't use Fodor's travel guides these days (oops -- sorry, Fodor's! :-) ). So I'm not sure how true the complaint is.

So the gist is that the guides used to have gay &amp; lesbian travel advice, but now they are sanitized. If that's true, I do find this odd -- regardless of whether Fodor's is actually anti-gay.

As mentioned, gay and lesbian travelers are usually perceived to have more dispensable income for travel. It's a good business decision for Fodor's to keep this sort of information (and even expand on it). This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with equality for gays and lesbians. It just makes good business sense.

Anyway, personally I find guidebooks like Time Out or Wallpaper City guides more to my taste. A more traditional guidebook like Frommer's is easily accessible online. (By contrast I found the Fodor's website quite bad personally -- so I normally don't consult the Fodor's website, but obviously I consult this forum.) I look for something different that can give me a slightly different angle. In this sense, the Wallpaper City guides are quite quirky. It's more akin to reading a glossy magazine. I know that Fodor's (or Frommer's) can never be like them.

Good post 111op!

Yes, I did cancel my Fodor’s account a while ago because I got disgusted with people who just wanted to pick fights with other posters and not talk about the realities of travel.

so you say your changed your screen name now because of what? still don't compute to this dolt

When you cancel an account how is this done?

you send fodor's an e-mail saying cancel my screen name?

No you just don't open fodor's anymore and your screen name remains intact in case you want to come back

Thus why did you not return under your own old screen name? That is my question and your answers simply don't respond.

Why not use your old screen name or at least give it to prove that you are indeed a long-time Fodorite.

Oh well what do i care really. You do raise very valid points.

T-R-O-L-L

I would like to see the word Troll banned from Fodor's

the OP makes too many very valid sounding points to be a troll, at least in the context i take it

he/she has well documented it seems the lessening of gay content and makes a thoughtful case

that he/she may have ulterior motives and thus the secrecy of the new name does however raise suspicions of who the post is really aimed at and that to me may be a Fodor's Guidebooks insider airing complains on this forum for their own agenda.

Well, Tom, as a gay man I find your post to be more than ridiculous. Yes, calling Fodor's anti-gay is quite confrontational and you either meant to get a rise out of people or you're quite naive.

I agree that Fodor's might include more on gay night spots (as does Lonely Planet--which I tend to use). You might have mentioned that on a thread here. However, your b*tchy rant only does your cause a disservice.

I've used this site for a long time now. You will find no more tolerant, open-minded community on the web.

Maybe I'm just a self-hating bigot for having these views, however.

Anyway, what's so surprising if someone cancels his Fodor's account completely? There are people who prefer to do that. I have friends who canceled their Facebook accounts completely. Gone -- without a trace. They just felt more comfortable that way. They could have chosen to leave their accounts but not log on, but they chose not to. Surely it's their right.

And after all, Fodor's has been known to ban folks from the forum. So if the poster wants a little privacy, what's the big deal?

I'm failing to understand why this is a &quot;crime.&quot;

And in any case, even if the original poster is lying, why is that so bad? I mean, since when do we expect complete honesty and sincerity on the net? I mean, that's very honorable, and I try to be accurate and sincere, but we know that we can't expect that of everyone.

As I said, if the gist of what the poster is saying is true, it doesn't make good business sense for Fodor's. But whether that makes Fodor's &quot;anti-gay&quot; is certainly up for discussion.

Having followed on this forum a couple of years, I tend to think that there's a herd or mob mentality. And if you don't like the message, you shoot the messenger. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but then of course, this is also common for dealings with people -- in real life or on the net.

So I guess then -- if you post, be aware that you can be criticized as well. If your skin is too thin, don't post. :-)

Zeus wrote “T-R-O-L-L”

HA! HA!

I guess Chicken Hawk would have been too inside.

PalenQ:

Joe4212 gave the instructions on how to cancel screen names.

I canceled my old name because it was too close to my real name and I have not been participating in discussions because – as soon as I said something mildly controversial – the personal attacks began, just as they began here (I’m not necessarily indicating you). The old name was too close to my real name. Issues of identity-theft arise. The power of homophobia cannot be underestimated.

I am not giving out my old screen name, but I do not – nor have I ever – worked for Fodor’s. My disappointment stems from my affection for the series and the fact that it is now much worse than it used to be. Maybe they’ll switch back.