First Timer Question---which airline from Seattle?
 

Hello---I finally got up my nerve to ask a question. We will be meeting up with family in Seattle to start our next trip to Germany. We will only fly airlines that take us non-stop to our first stop in Europe---in other words, we don't want to fly to Chicago or the east coast and catch a flight from there. I see my choices from Seattle are British, Scandinavian, and Northwest. Family members have had bad luck in the past with Northwest (lost luggage, serious delays). Between the other two, what do experienced travelers here like? I saw a discussion here about the safety of the 747 versus the Airbus which said it all comes down to the number of engines (2 versus 4). But I thought Scandinavian, which uses an Airbus, has an excellent safety record, and a great reputation. (Although somewhere I read that service on Scandinavian had slipped lately, and I can't remember where I saw that.) I'm also wondering about other considerations such as overall service, seating configurations, airport facilities, carry-on policy, etc. We have been to both London and Copenhagen and like both cities, so that isn't a factor. We can easily get a connecting flight to our destination in Germany (which we haven't decided yet) from either one. Cost-wise, when I look for tickets I see British usually has a better price, but that is not actually determinative for us. I'd gladly pay a little more to get better safety and service, and the best overall experience. Does anyone have a preference? Thank you for your help.

Welcome to Fodor's. I'm glad you posted. You'll find it very useful.

The general opinion is SAS is better. (Don't know about recently.) BA is pretty tight in coach class. As is Northwest/KLM. BA has a nice business class however. And I've been generally happy with BA service.

London Heathrow is a big airport. You might have a bit of a trek between flights.

Does it have to be Seattle? Lufthansa flies nonstop to Frankfurt from Portland. And there are other options from Vancouver, B.C.

I'd agree with Northwest being less (way less) than optimal, I haven't had particularly good experiences with them and avoid them whenever possible. Haven't flown Scandinavian, but have done BA several times, in Economy and Economy Plus, and it's probably the nicest airline I've flown, better than the US cattle classes to Europe. The second poster recommended Lufthansa; they're reliable (German), but I thought their coach was even smaller than US domestic (my shuttle flight within Germany had more room than the Atlantic crossing), but that was a few years ago, so maybe they've added some space. Don't worry about safety; you've got a considerably better chance of dying on the way to the airport rather than on the plane, regardless of which of these airlines you choose (as for the 4 vs. 2 engine battle, the 2 engine planes can make it to an airport on 1 engine just fine, actually they can cross the Atlantic on one, though they usually won't).

Hi Mimar---In this case it does have to be Seattle. The logistics of getting to either Portland or Vancouver BC complicate things too much. And it seems like British and Scandinavian are both good airlines, I'm just having trouble choosing between them.

Grsing---so the 2-engines versus 4-engines is not a consideration? I know statistically they are all considered safe, but someone on the other post I read was adamant about this---he said "more is better when crossing the pond."

Wow all the NWA bashing. If you fly enough you will have bad luck with any airline. I have had good luck with them and they now fly the new A330 direct to Amsterdam. It isint a bad flight, all of the seats have tv screens in the back of them and they are way better than the old DC10's.

Unfortunately, our daughter got stuck in Amsterdam for 2 days last year and absolutely won't consider flying Northwest again.

SAS and BA both use 4-engine aircraft between SEA and CPH/LHR respectively (B747 by BA, A340 by SAS.) Northwest uses 2-engine A330 planes to AMS. All are perfectly safe. BA's 747s are older than the other airlines' planes, but well built by our neighbors who pay taxes and keep the schools running, if you get my meaning.

None of the above will be especially comfortable in discount coach. BA and SAS offer "premium economy" with more legroom but at a higher price.

Connecting at CPH or AMS is easy and pleasant. Connecting from long-haul to short-haul at London Heathrow is crummy, because (usually) you need to change terminals. Connecting to most points in Germany is easy at any of these airports.

In summer, BA will be 2 747s on some days between Seattle and London (1 on others) so there will be a lot more seats available on BA than on the others.

While you asked about Seattle, you might want to know that Lufthansa fly nonstop to Frankfurt from both Portland and Vancouver, so that would avoid a European connection altogether. (4-engine Airbuses in both cases.)

Welcome to Fodors, by the way.

Nora, we live in Olympia and have traveled often in two ways. The best by far, in my opinion, is the non-stop out of Portland to Franfurt without a doubt. There are NO crowds (NO LINE WHATSOEVER) and parking each pretty cheap at the private lots right near the airport. Return customs is fast, although they do it using buses from the plane. The plane is generally a Airbus 340 (4 engine job that has the movies in the seats ahead of you) Seating is so-so, they use a kind of seat that tries to fit your body, but it can end up a bit tight if you have a belly like mine. Service has been perfect and oh, is that non-stop just great and worth any trouble and slightly more costs. In fact my family is using this flight again this summer. The second best choice is to run up to Vancouver and leave from there. This last summer it was on a 747. Again, great flight, although that plane didn't have the seat back movie screens. It was not bad at all going through customs in Vancouver, although you do have the usual border issue. Parking was preety cheap as well and the airport is very easy to get to. I have looked at the SAS Copenhagen and Northwest Amesterdam ways as well, but they seem much more crowded and hectic in Seattle. E-mail me if you like for more details, and if you like I can give you my number to call for more info. We have rented cars at Frankfurt and taken the train, so I can help there as well, no problem. If you would like a little more advice. My teens have traveled this route as well.

While I understand your daughters' opinion, I agree with jay. Everyone has an airline horror story, and everyone will have their own opinions on which is best/worse based on their own experiences. I loved NW and had absolutely no problems with them after numerous fights, but did not like our SAS flight and thought the customer service was horrible the one time that we did use them. Unfortunately I can't yet comment on British Airways, although I am flying with them to Croatia in November.

Good luck and welcome to Fodors!
Tracy

Nora, I just saw your post about the logistics for leaving at other places besides Seattle. All of our familiy agreed that the relaxed experience of going out of Portland as compared to the lines and more hectic Seattle was well worth it. (Vancouver was aliitle more work, but well worth the non-stop nature) The non-stop part was just an added BIG bonus. You used to be able to rent a car in Seattle and drop it off in Portland without a drop charge, so if that is true, that might help. One added plus is that during the summer the over-the-pole route is very smooth flying as compared to the other routes that go over the northern Atlantic. Artic summer air masses are very stable without the thunderstorms and choppy air over the north Atlantic route. Where are you headed in Germany?

I always fly British Air Seattle to Heathrow on the overnight flight. Have probably done it 4 or 5 times now. I like it just fine and have never had serious problems with them. Those great seatback video screens, and the food's OK too. They do try to make it as pleasant as possible in my experience. I usually price tickets various places, then telephone direct to book with BA.

Olyman---thanks, you make a very convincing argument for Portland. I guess I could check with everybody and see if they could depart from there. We are going to a reunion near Stuttgart, and then on to Münich, Austria, etc. But I was actually thinking of flying into Frankfurt because I have read that airport is so easy to navigate, and we can catch a train right in the airport to our destination. Is that true? And what time of day does that Lufthansa flight leave Portland and arrive in Germany?

Suze----thank you---I was hoping your would answer. I've seen your name here a lot and you are always helpful.

The latest schedule is leaving Portland at 1:15pm and arriving at 8:25am the next morning. Coming back it leaves Frankfurt at 10am and get into Portland at 11:25am. These are subject to some change as the dates get closer. Last year we were able to actually check in for our return flight at a Lufthansa counter right at the top of the stairs from the train station. It was labelled "some special service or something" but since there was no one there they said we could check in there. No lines and we were all checked in within minutes of arriving at the airport. We had returned our rental car in Hannover and had taken the train to Franfurt from there. We had rented a car since we did a southern Germany/Slovenia/Croatia/Austria trip along the back roads. My kids have GAPP Program exchange partners in Hannover, so we went there to meet the parents.

Olyman, where do you spend the night before the return flight? Frankfurt or a small town nearby? Do you have any problem getting to the airport in the morning? I think for a 10 am flight you would have to be there at 8?

I think 8 am would be fine. Last year we got up very early and took a train from Hannover (about a 2 hour ride). The parents we were there to meet took us to the train station. We had bought tickets in advance to get guaranteed seats. I think this summer we will be staying in Baden Baden for the last 2 days and taking the train from there on departure day. That way we can turn the rental car in a few days earlier. My daughter found train schedules somewhere on the internet to confirm times, etc. What dates are you planning to travel? By the way we are using frequent flyer mileage (United) for 2 seats and my kids are flying on special fares through there exchange program.

This is good to know---I've never thought of driving down to Portland to catch a flight. We have flown British our last 5 trips, and it was fine, except for the fact that British pilots seem to have a penchant for powering up and going around again instead of landing. It's happened to us twice, once coming in to Heathrow, and once into Seattle. I'm sure it's safe, but it is a bit unnerving; especially when they wait 10 minutes to tell you why. I don't know how unusual this is. Anyone else have this experience?

Anyway, for that and other reasons we were thinking of trying SAS next time (I am another one in the "won't fly NW" camp). But this Portland flight sounds possible. Olyman, what if all the Seattle travelers start flying out of Portland? It won't be uncrowded any more!

Suze--do you prefer British because of price, or do you think it's a better airline than SAS?

Just as a heads up - there have been plenty of rumors flying around that Lufthansa is not happy with business out of PDX and is mulling relocating the flight to SEA. Nothing to deter plans for this year, but the Port of Seattle is hell-bent on getting more Europe nonstops, and United still has a ton of route authorities from SEA to many European cities. I mention UAL because they and LH have a bazillion codeshare flights between the US and Germany - LH numbers on UA planes and v.v., so SEA-FRA or SEA-MUC could be started by Lufthansa/United as soon as they get slots at SEA.

Having ridden on both, I think SAS' economy service is pretty comparable to BA's. BA's network is a lot bigger, so connecting to more cities in Europe/Mideast is easier with BA than SK.

I have also found BA's prices to be cheaper than SK's as a general rule.

Did you check to see if Lufthansa goes non-stop from Seattle to Germany?

I took BA the first time because I did not want to stop in the U.S. on the way to Europe and I like to fly overnight rather than waste a daytime.

BA fares have always been comparable. Since thing went smoothly, I just take that same flight each time. Those seatback TV's are the best invention (I don't sleep on planes). And service and food, well I feel they do the best all things considered.

I can't compare it to SAS since I've never flown them. And I'm most definitely NOT driving to Portland to fly to Europe -LOL. I think SeaTac is a great airport.

Betsy----there are no Lufthansa non-stop flights from Seattle to Germany now; the only airlines with non-stops to Europe are the ones I mentioned. But is looks like it is a possibility for the future. We are going in September, but that's probably too soon for the change that Gardyloo mentions.

Gardyloo---where could I find out more about this? Thanks.

Oops! I didn't see Gardy's post before I replied.

Suze---thanks for your input. Is that LOL as in "laughing our loud" or "lots of luck"? I've heard it can mean both!!! It sounds like you don't care for the Portland idea. But we live in eastern Washington so either airport is a schlep for us.

So you haven't experienced the landing prolem on BA someone else mentioned?

Don't look for any route changes this year; nothing is going to change that quickly. There's been talk about PDX loads since the flights were begun in '03 or '04. They key to discontinuing (or adding) routes these days is all about premium-class loads, not coach. BA, for example, can run 2 747s a day between London and Seattle because the business and first class cabins are jammed, mainly by people from certain large software or other major corporations in the Seattle area. Vancouver, by comparison, also has 2x BA 747s a day (as well as an Air Canada flight) but BA uses planes with fewer business class seats on those routes, because Vancouver is mainly a leisure market for the UK (big, but not spendy.) On the other hand, Vancouver has 2x Cathay Pacific flights daily to Hong Kong, mainly because those planes go out full in business and first, yielding lots more revenue than even full coach sections.

Portland may well send out full Lufthansa planes (in coach) every day, but it's what's up front that counts. (Meaning paid, not award or upgrade business/FC flyers.)

Lurk on flyertalk.com - LH and UA boards, Star Alliance board, and you'll see how it works.

Oh, that would be me laughing out loud about driving to the Portland airport (but I live in downtown Seattle).

Actually we usually land on time at Heathrow but then they drive us around for about 1/2 hour waiting for a gate to open up to deplane. Don't remember exactly, but nothing that was a deal-breaker for me.

The two best tips I can give if you do go with BA: 1) get a seat assignment when you buy your ticket. They are stingy with them (make you wait until airport departure to give them out for about 1/3 of the plane) and I could not stand a middle seat on such a long flight! Secondly, they are strict with carry-on bags weight allowance, they mean business when they say 13 lbs. limit.

We fly out of Seattle and are like you ... we want direct over the pole flights so it boils down to SAS, BA and KLM. Trust me a 9 1/2 hour flight is better than a 17 hour connection through Houston, Newartk, NY, Detroit, Chicago or Minneapolis.

For some reason we always end up on SAS and we love it. Haven't ever used the other two. We like the fact that the SAS and BA flights leave here at 7pm and you can have a meal, watch a movie, snooze a little and end up having breakfast over Europe. KLM on the other hand leaves in the middle of the day.

We like the Copenhagen airport although Heathrow, Gatwick and Schipol are all good too. We frequently make the next connecting flight on to Munich and if you are headed to Stuttgart I sure wouldn't fly to Frankfurt unless it is your first stop in Europe.

Have a good flight and a good trip.

Opps, one more British Air cautionary note... Make sure your connection is Heathrow/Heathrow if you are continuing on. They sneak in those Heathrow/Gatwicks for about the same price, you need to be reading the fine print to avoid this unnecessary transfer if you are booking online yourself.

Thanks. I was thinking of Frankfurt because when I checked prices on SAS, it was a lot less expensive than flying to Stuttgart. Also, I thought we could spend our first night in St. Goar or someplace on the Rhine, before going on to Stuttgart. It looks like they are not so far apart by train.

Why do you recommend against Frankfurt? Is it a difficult airport?

Suze---thank you for the warning. Is there a way to tell in advance if the ongoing flight is from Gatwick before you buy the ticket? This happened to friends of ours going to Venice---they had to take a bus from one to the other and almost missed their flight, even though British booked them that way. I hate to think of trying to manage a transfer after sleeping (or not) on the plane and arriving all jet-lagged.

Sure it's right there on the website flight schedule.

You just need to pay attention to those letters that are the abbreviation of the airport code name likely shown near the Arrival and Departure time... *before* purchasing anything, there's usually a small asterik that says change of airport required.

Or if I were talking to an agent on the telephone, I'd simply ask "this is IN and OUT of Heathrow, right? Please because I don't want to go to Gatwick!"
:-)

I find Gardyloo's information about the different clientele at Seattle vs. Vancouver very interesting. Also that they would configure the planes differently for each market. I wondered why there were so many business class seats in the BA planes (we start in Seattle). But we did go business class once (with miles tickets) and it was very nice---even with the weird landing I mentioned above.

enzian - Going around during an approach is quite common. If you fly often enough, you'll experience it. You're just lucky to have both on BA.

It's especially common at busy airports like LHR. For example, your plane is preparing to land. The one that landed in front of you for some reason didn't clear the runway in time, then you go around.

When things like that happen, the pilots will be very busy communicating with the tower to fly the correct pattern to line up for landing again. It's extremely crucial, as at LHR, if you look in the sky, you may see planes all over. The pilots simply do not have time to explain to you what's going on. They're 100% focused on communicating with the tower.

Nora, I'm glad you posted this. As a Seattlite, I'm following this threat with much interest. The only thing I don't love about living in Seattle is the LOOOONG FLIGHTS getting to Europe. We've done BA and NW and of the two, would pick NW, though BA does have better deals, but since that's out for you, well, that's out for you. DH and I really do not like Heathrow at all.

From what everyone has said so far, it sounds like SAS might just be the best solution for you.

Gardyloo, great information, as always. Hope this happens soon, though it won't be soon enough for Nora and her family. Now if someone would only fly directly to Paris...last time we flew into Paris, we actually flew down to LA first, but my best friend's there, so it wasn't as crazy as it sounds.

For me, the thought of starting a trip driving down to Portland and then having to drive back afterwards sounds very tiring, but, maybe it would make sense to fly the distance? Of course, then you still have to deal with SEATAC, but at least you could get a direct flight to your destination.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

rkkwan---thank you, it's helpful to know that "going around" is not a crisis situation. I guess I don't fly all that much, and to have it happen twice, on the same airline, just seemed odd. I thought maybe it was a BA policy thing---go back up if you have any doubts. In both cases they explained (eventually) that it was due to traffic that was too close ahead. But we had some anxious moments before they explained. But I guess if you are going to do that, it's nice to be in a 747. If it happens again, I won't worry so much. Again, thanks.

Going around because of a pilot's misjudgement of his/her approach is not a good thing - for the pilot. Companies don't like having planes arrive late or full of nervous pax. At airports like LHR or LAX going around can mean having to re-enter the "stack" with consequent loss of time and allocated landing "slots" - sometimes resulting in long delays before a second approach can be completed.

Going around because of air traffic control instructions is arguably worse - somebody was doing (or not doing) sometthing they weren't supposed to do.

It does indeed happen and not that infrequently, and it's certainly better than the alternative. But it's not anything the airlines or air traffic people are happy about.

Pulling up and going around in a 747 after a 10 hour flight is no fun for anybody.

The first time, coming into Heathrow, was just days after the war In Iraq started, and everyone was a bit twitchy. The pilot said (right away, thankfully) that there was a helicopter too close to the runway. The second time, coming into SeaTac, the pilot didn't say anything for ten minutes. We had the impression it was a mistake by air traffic control; maybe he was discussing it with them before coming on with the reassurance to the passengers. He said he "wasn't comfortable" with the distance between us and the plane ahead. I think it bothered me so much that time because the kids were with us, and I could see how frightened they were.

Two engines vs four? No offense, but if you are truly concerned about whether the plane can make it to your destination I don't think you are a good candidate for any form of travel, except perhaps walking.

I'll chime in quickly here, as well.

First, regarding BA: I've flown them from SEA to Europe twice, first time in business class (company paid), second time in deluxe coach. Service was excellent both times, altho one would expect that in business, I spoze. I was willing to pay the premium for deluxe coach because it's a looooong flight to Heathrow from Seattle, and I'm a very tall guy. That said, the folks in the regular coach seats seemed to be well attended-to and comfortable, as well -- and all coach sections had identical meals served.

Second, regarding where to stay a night or two before boarding in Frankfurt to return. I would recommend either Baden-Baden or Wiesbaden. Both are a relatively short train ride away from the Deutsche Bahn station underneath FRA (Wiesbaden is closer), and both are charming and relaxing small cities. The bonus is that both cities also have traditional and beautiful German "Therme" (Spas), where one can soak away the travel blues, and give oneself a final treat before boarding the plane home.

Fritzl

Thank you all for your help. Vedette, my "2 versus 4" comment was a direct quote from something I read in another discussion. I read a lot of them before asking my own question, because I was afraid of responses like yours. The person I quoted said he was an aircraft mechanic. I'm not worried whether the plane can make it; just want to know if one is safer than the other.

Is there some way to save all this information? Do they delete a discussion eventually? Or are there folders or anything so I can find it again? Or do I just print it out?

From the helpful input I have received, I think I like the Lufthansa flight from Pportland, but I will have to talk to my family about changing our plans that way. If that won't work it appears from your comments that either British and Scandinavian is just fine.

Fritzl, thank you for the pre-return flight lodging suggestions. I will look into Wiesbaden; that sounds just right.

Wow! Is everybody on this site from the Pacific Northwest. It must be the hours spent daydreaming and planning summer vacations after the winter we've had. Nora, we've been to Baden Baden several times and keep coming back when we want a place to unwind and get ready to return. We usually stay at one of the smaller hotels in the pedestrian only area rather than the bigger resort hotels. For us, we will be able to catch an early train to the Frankfurt airport in time for our return flight to Portland. If you are looking for any other great areas for family gatherings, check out Meeersburg on the Bodensee. There are lots of varied things to do there from just lounging around to hiking, biking, taking ferry boats over to Switizerkand, and even golfing.