Finally! Too Fat to Fly Southwest
 

Now they are beginning to see the economic light. When someone takes up more than one seat they must pay for two! New policy announced last night and am sure other airlines will follow. Maybe I won't have to sit next to a 400 pounder who is mostly lopping into my side. It's Southwest for me whenever I can. It's only fair that a person pay for the space they occupy, isn't it??

Sandi,<BR><BR>Do not count your chickens yet!<BR><BR>I'm sure there is an ACLU attorney out there just begging for the chance to sue in front of some liberal judge. I'm even more certain that along with SWA, McDonalds will be named as a co-defendant since it was their Big Macs that piled on the weight!<BR><BR>US

Sandi, if the world lets you post, then larger flyers ought to get a break too. I imagine you're one of those intolerant ones with the gangly frame and thin brain.

Why should large people get a break? Smokers didn't, and sitting next to a large person in a long flight IS a health hazard. Have you heard about DVT?

It's not a new policy, it's a reinforcement of an old policy from 1980. And I agree it's fare for me, I paid for my seat and I want to occupy it, not to share with somebody who paid the same but needs more space.

Isn't this policy directed toward people who reserve two seats to begin with? How do you set policy for those who reserve one seat, and take up 1-1/2 or two on the trip? What's the flight attendant supposed to say, "Excuse me, but you have to buy another seat!"? This could get interesting. I guess they could make the seats larger. Even people who aren't overweight are squeezed in like sardines.

Could I please pay a lower fare because I'm thin?

Well, Lil, right on the money. Make the damned seats larger especially on international flights. I’m not at all fat, but I’m big, 6’2’. I only weigh 180, but my frame is big and my legs are long. My girlfriend however is not large at all; in fact shorter and less heavy than average and even at that she’s still cramped when she flies. GIVE US SOME ROOM!

We here at Trans-Atlantic Airlines will gladly make our seats larger for you, our customers. However, we will then have to charge more for tickets. Will you, our customers, be willing to pay more for these larger seats or will you desert us and fly with other airlines who have smaller, but cheaper, seats?

Larger seats are really the answer, regardless of how much you weigh. There is nothing really to stop the airlines from determining the size of their seats and, in the process, deciding who is too overweight. What if they chose to make the seats 12" wide and thus rendered 80% of the population (as opposed to let's say 15% of the population) too large to fly in one seat and everyone had to pay double? If the trend is towards larger people and smaller seats, eventually we'll all end up paying double. Yes, most people do fit in a seat, but most people are horrendously uncomfortable, fat, thin, or in the middle. So, it seems to me that the responsibility is with the airlines to make their seats more comfortable for the majority of their passengers instead of making a tiny minority even more uncomfortable in theirs.

It's our responsibility to make our seats more comfortable? <BR><BR>Fair enough.<BR><BR>Then it's your responsibility to pay more for those seats. <BR><BR>Will you be responsible if we are?<BR><BR>By the way, we already have more comfortable seats you can pay more for and we don't stop you from buying those. They're called first class seats. If you want more comfort, why aren't you willing to walk your talk and pay more for those seats?

Hey, Trans-Atlantic spokesman.<BR><BR>Using logic will get you nowhere on this board. No one wants to hear that fixed operating costs + larger seats = fewer passengers = higher ticket prices. That's too straightforward.<BR><BR>We want to hear how all groups have a moral obligation to subsidize any other group's behavioral choices, that we can all "just get along," that we're really all the victims of greedy corporations, and that the money to put all of this wishful thinking into practice will just fall from the trees. Stick to fantsy, it sells better.

So, someone tell me, when are we gonna charge those travelers who choose not to wash or wear deodorant for as many seats as it takes to get away from the smell?? Or those who have bad breath?<BR><BR>We can find something wrong with every person that can be charged extra for. Where will it end?? <BR><BR>I have always believed that airlines should have at least a couple of rows of "business class" seats in the economy cabin that those who are larger (either taller or heavier) could pay a little extra for. <BR><BR>I am large and of course I choose to be that way. Just as someone chooses to be unusually tall. It seems we have no compassion for anyone that doesn't fit the billboard image. Funny, the majority of Americans are overweight...so maybe the airlines have just found another way to suck money out of the majority of us.<BR><BR>I will never fly SWA again...nor will my thin husband or children...<BR><BR>

I'm intrigued - how do you choose to be unusually tall?

The point isn't that people don't pay for larger seats - they do. I'm an economy class flier, but from what I read and by peeking into the business class cabins, those seats are sold. So people do pay for them, and pay often and dearly for them. The point is that the public is forced to accept a standard that may or may not be fair to the majority. The original poster bragged about not having to sit next to "400 pounder", but how about if they choose to design seats for 125 pounders or people who are 5'1" tall? Besides, ticket prices affect whether people fly to a certain extent. I know I've flow in March to Europe for $400 and for $650 - people will and do fly even if it costs somewhat more or less.

I was making the point that we don't choose to be tall or fat. Of course we can all try to be healthy and get thin, but that isn't always possible. You may think that all fat people choose to be that way, but that just isn't true.<BR><BR>There are many things about us humans that we may not be able to change. Its a shame when corporations spend their time trying to find ways to make money off them.

Like many folks who heard this story on the news, I wondered what constitutes "fat" to SWA. Some clarification came in a follow-up story today, in which a spokesperson stated that if you require a seatbelt extender to fasten your seatbelt or if you cannot lower the armrest (because you "spill over" it), you will need to buy another seat, and can occupy as much of those two seats as you want or need to. While I've seen a number of folks who're overweight while flying, I haven't seen very many who actually fall into the classification outlined by SWA.<BR><BR>BC

To Trans-Atlantic Airlines <BR>Will you be responsible if we are?<BR>Yes, I would gladly pay for those 1rst class tickets if the price/quality was fair. But when you charge 6 times more than the regular ticket, I prefer to be a little uncomfortable. The last time I flew to Europe in a 767, my coach ticket was $570, while the first class ticket was $3000. The layout of the plane was 2-3-2 in coach (7 seats per row) and it was 2-1-2 in 1st class (5 seats per row), let's say 1 1st class row is equivalent to 2 coach rows, that will make 5 seats of first class equivalent to 14 seats in coach (1 ro 3 relation). So why the airline doesn't charge me $1710 (3 times more) for the 1st class sear? That's a price I might consider to pay. Are you going to tell me that the cheap champagne and the tiny "above average" food you get in 1st class is worth the extra $1300?<BR>

Thank you for your response, zzz. <BR><BR>I am intrigued that no one has yet answered whether they would be willing to pay more money for larger, more comfortable seats. We would be more than happy to provide these seats on all the planes in our fleet if we knew that people would be willing to pay more for them. <BR><BR>But we will not make our seats larger and more comfortable if people who claim to want this are not willing to pay the price, if they desert us for other airlines with smaller, less comfortable seats which cost less. <BR><BR>So, customers, what do you say? Would you be willing to pay more for tickets across-the-board if we installed larger, more comfortable seats in the planes in our fleet? Or will you desert us for other airlines who don't do this, but offer cheaper seats?

Pathetic - No one can choose whether to be tall (subject to the application of stretching devices). Whilst some people can't choose whether to be fat or not - the majority can.<BR><BR>As to the comment about Corporations trying to find ways of making money off us, well shoot, that's what they're there for and they pay our wages. Unless we start down the Thomas Moore route, I guess we're stuck with it

Pathetic,<BR><BR>Your grasp of economic reality is what's pathetic. Corporations, including air carrriers, are in business to make money. The airliners they operate have a fixed number of seats, capping their maximum revenue on any flight. The vast majority of people are perfectly happy to occupy those seats, and pay to do so. Our self-indulgent, spoiled culture has produced a relatively new phenomenon - individuals whose girth requires more than one seat. These individuals, rather than looking at commercial aviation as a business transaction in which one purchases a seat license, have decided that they are "entitled" to be transported under their own unilateral conditions (i.e., paying for only one seat license, but occupying two seats). They evoke pity as a weapon. As a result, airline revenues suffer, and all passengers are forced to absorb higher costs. <BR><BR>If enough obese people travel by air, they will vote with their pocketbooks and demand larger seats (some airlines already advertise such perks). Those larger seats will undoubtedly cost more money (if I have to explain this to you, you are hopelessly lost). If an airline believes it can profit from this market niche, it will step into that niche (some are stepping into it already). That is how capitalism works.<BR><BR>Do not, however, demand that people who weigh less than 300 pounds subsidize the behavior of those who do. You have a right to choose your lifestyle, you have no right to avoid the economic consequences by foisting those consequences on others. If you do not like Southwest's policy, find another carrier who will accomodate your situation (undoubtedly for a higher price). In the meantime, the vast majority of us will continue to take advantage of the low prices afforded by Southwest and their 18 3/4" seats.

In all my years of flying I don't think I've ever seen a plane that was really "FULL"... that is, where every seat in coach/business/1st class had a body in it. In fact, I've never seen one close to full, though I'm sure others have (I never travel at peak times). Yes, there has ALWAYS been enough room to make the seats a bit larger. Plus, I've always been told that a body in the seat is peanuts to the airlines, the money is in the cargo hold.

Given the cabin size of most 737s (such as those SWA flies), going from 6-across to 5-across would reduce the number of seats by around 15%-20%. Seat width would go up to roughly the size of business class seats on most international carriers. <BR><BR>With more comfortable seats load factors (percent utilization) would probably go up. With fewer passengers on the plane, baggage area could be converted to high-value airfreight capacity (more valuable per pound than people on most carriers.) Per flight, the airlines would probably lose money on booze and save money on cokes and orange juice. With fewer seats per plane, the companies would probably have to add planes, which would help the US economy.<BR><BR>Nonetheless, the airlines would ignore any savings and pass on the "lost revenues" to passengers in the form of higher fares.<BR><BR>So hands up, how many of you would spend 20% more for a wide seat, lower chance of DVT, no intruding obese neighbors, fewer center seats, shorter waits at the bag carousel? On a flight that's now $300, the price would go to $360. <BR><BR>Okay, put your hands down. Don't you think someone else, maybe a business planner in some airline, hasn't done the same math? Patience, friends.<BR><BR>And for the prejudiced and uninformed out there, FYI, your ticket is a contract for transportation, not for space on an airplane. I agree sitting next to a big person can be uncomfortable, whether they're obese and the target of your bigotry, or a 6'4" bodybuilder like the one I sat next to, whose shoulders and thighs were, shall we say, buff beyond reason. Let's see the SWA gate people ask him for his credit card.

You have regulations as to how much luggage you can drag on (so some don't be piggish and some get none), so why is it not fair to ask you to pay for extra space? Every folly has it's consequences, and overeating is not a disability (but am sure the lawyers will try to make it). We all have equal rights, and everyone is entitled to the space they pay for, so if you need two spaces you must pay for two. We have got to get rid of the 'victim' mentality in this country. no matter what is wrong or what you do, it is not "your fault" but someone elses, and their responsibility too. Get Real.

Don't try to make your FAT my problem! This all has to do with economics and space. It is absolutely sickening how fat people 'rationalize' away all their needs to stay fat. Making the seats larger means fewer seats, and to make ends meet, that means costing more. Are we willing...you bet I am. I am not fat, but would appreciate a little extra room. By the way, British Air has done so, it's called Coach plus, and is a little more roomy without the hefty business or first class cost.

xxx-<BR><BR>Is that the new directive from the Politburo? You certainly seem to have a knack for economic planning. Perhaps an open letter to all the backwards airline CEO's might advance the social cause?

Zorro, yes, our first class seats are priced much higher than second class. We realize that buying a first class seat in order to have a larger, more comfortable seat, would be very expensive. However, that option does exist. <BR><BR>People are willing to pay what we charge for our first class seats. If you go to sell your house will you put a "fair" price on it, or will you price it at what you think people are willing to pay for it? If the price you are asking for your house is much more than I am willing to pay, can I say that your price is unfair, that you are being greedy, that you are only interested in making a huge profit? <BR><BR>How much more would you be willing to pay for a second-class ticket, in percentage terms, if we made the seats wider? How much would that extra width be worth to you? Please help me out here.

zzz- I acquired my "knack for economic planning" in school. I vote Republican. I fit in my seat. <BR><BR>I also went to Sunday school where they taught me something about tolerance and activism. I haven't forgotten that, either.<BR><BR>And you?

What's all the argument about? Firstly, coach sucks. If you are an average sized person and you have a 400 pound person lerking onto your seat, I'm sure anyone would be a little put off. If there are crying children behind you kicking your seat, again, annoying. I'm pretty sure that if anyone is invading your personal space, it get a bit frustrating. <BR><BR>There really is no logical answer to have comfort in such small spaces - fact of life!!

xxx-<BR><BR>I subscribe to the school of personal responsibility, production and common sense. My formal education has taught me little beyond the necessity to think critically for myself, and to discern the agendas and biases of those who would think for me. I practice tolerance and altruism in my private life, on an individual basis, but I detest social engineering and political correctness, both of which are antithetical to objectivity and the rights of individuals.<BR><BR>We differ in the means, not the ends, but that is a big difference indeed.

I can be a witness to how uncomfortable it is to sit next to someone for 4 1/2 hours who took up more than their seat. The gentleman weighed about 350 lbs., had to have a belt extender and couldn't have the arm rest down in between us. The flight was completely full, so they couldn't move me. I spent the entire time leaning over to my far left to give him room. He couldn't put the tray down during dinner so we put his drink on mine. Granted this is unusual, but I agree that he should have purchased two seats. The seats may not be the most roomy, but they are based on averages, just like theatre and movie seats. Let's don't pretend that 350 pounds is normal for a human being.

You guys have too much time on your hands. A) the argument from the "so called" airline person is absurd. Most of us cannot afford to pay more than $1000 for first class. Sorry, but since the average salary in the US is $16,000 annually, that's not going to happen. B) Obese people are fat because they want to be. Plain and simple. No one is begruding another human person 10 or 15 extra pounds, but don't try to tell me that you are 40-80 pounds overweight and it's "not your fault." Please. Thank heavens this has finally come up. I am tired of having to ask to be moved because someone is taking up their own seat and mine. It isn't fair to the rest of us.

Karen<BR><BR>According to the US Census, per capita income in the US was $22,199 in 2000 and the median household income was $42,148. Why do people post things as fact when they are actually just making it up?<BR><BR>http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/p60-213.pdf

I suggest the following airlines: <BR>FAT (Fat Airline Trans)for people over 300lbs<BR>SAD (Smokers All Dead)<BR>TOT (Toddlers Only Terror) <BR>CAD (Cantankerous Adult Demons) <BR><BR>

Even before I became Junoesque (spelling?)I was crowded and uncomfortable in most airplane seats. The airlines do not want to make larger, more comfortable seats as that would mean fewer seats to sell.Better to cram as many people in, steerage fashion,as possible and make a profit. Eventually they may get the idea to REDUCE the size of the seats forcing more people who are now considered "normal sized" to then become too large and they can charge these folks for 2 seats also. It will only be a matter of time for the airlines to hit on this little money-making scheme. Then we will ALL be in the same boat/airplane.

YES! YES! We all want larger seats on airplanes and we want them NOW!!!!! WE WANT COMFORT! WE WANT COMFORT! <BR><BR>And while we're at it, we demand that airplanes get rid of their stupid bans on smoking. That also makes life on a flight uncomfortable, and WE WANT COMFORT! As my fellow smokers have been arguing, there is no proof whatsoever that so-called "secondhand" smoke hurts anyone so, please, BRING BACK SMOKING on flights and save us from the goody two shoes who dont want to see anyone have fun!! <BR><BR>WE WANT LARGER SEATS AND SMOKING! WE WANT COMFORT!

American and Continental have same policy, Delta and United do not. they said they even keep it in your file that your obese and the next time you fly they try to block the seat next to you or change your flight before they will charge you

zzz - Well said. However, I wasn't suggesting anything like social engineering. I was saying that the airlines are in a business and a weak one at that, and if they continue to trade-off passenger comfort with low prices eventually the time will come when somebody will figure out that there's a market for more than just Yugos and Jags in the world of airplane seats. United and British already have, and American too to an extent. <BR><BR>I don't subscribe to a purely libertarian view of things myself, (having witnessed smoking-induced death at close range, for example) but I don't think it's "political correctness" to suggest that private enterprise might solve this problem on its own given time and changing public opinion. I'm not advocating for SWA to abandon its policy, I'm just advocating for some other airline to provide some alternatives. I think the public will migrate to them in a heartbeat.

Let's take a look at what the policy (which is apparently not new, but simply re-stated and more publicly) actually says:<BR><BR><BR>from http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/additional_seat.html<BR><BR>====================== ===============<BR><BR>Customers who reserve and purchase a discounted, advance purchase fare will be charged the same fare for the second seat, even if the advance purchase requirements are not met at the time of the second seat purchase. A Customer who is holding an unrestricted walk up fare will be charged the appropriate discounted Child's Fare for the second seat. <BR><BR>Once travel has been completed, if the flight is not full, the Customer can request a full refund for the second seat by contacting Southwest Airlines' Customer Relations Department. <BR><BR>This policy was designed to safely accommodate Customers needing extra space. <BR><BR>The policy is intended to promote the safety and comfort of all Customers onboard and to ensure that no Customers are deprived a portion of the space they have purchased. <BR><BR>=====================================<BR>< BR>Several questions come to mind:<BR><BR>What IS this "discounted Child's Fare"? To whom does it apply? Is it based on age or size? Are 140 pound 11-year-olds eligible for a discounted seat, not available to a 98 pound 22-year-old (or 79-year-old)?<BR><BR>Does a 40 pound 4-year-old get a deeper discount than a 60 pound 6-year-old? Can two 40 pound 4-year-olds share one seat? Will their one seat be priced the same as the discount offered to an 80 pound 8-year-old?<BR><BR>Those who applaud the up-charging of larger people should prepare for the discounting - - even DEEP discounting of seats for SMALL people, and especially very young children who can fit two to the seat.<BR><BR>There might be a good opportunity for some inventor/entrepreneur who can come up with adjustable-size seating, and let the market offer prices by size.<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>Rex<BR><BR>

If fat people have to pay for 2 seats, will they also get two meals and wouldn’t exasperate the problem even more? A very high percentage who fly business class do so with FF miles or upgrades. The average person is taller and larger than 50 years ago and the seats are designed for those smaller people. I’m 6’4” and am terribly uncomfortable with the lack of leg room. When in high school I played center on the basketball team yet today I’m not even tall enough to play guard position. I’m about 10 lbs overweight (working on losing that), but my shoulders are wider than the seat backs in coach and I have no control over that. The airlines must make their seats larger to accommodate people of today. I would think that SouthWest probable responded to a lot of letters to them regarding this problem. I would suggest that all of you write to the airlines regarding this issue and have any friends that fly do the same. That might get their attention.