My wife and I are the same height- 5'10". However, she has longer legs and finds most airlines have inadequate leg-room. So, yes, I believe seats are far too small for average N. Americans.<BR>About first class - I think 80% of first class are paid for by their company - thus demonstrating money is no object when you don't have to pay yourself. 19% are probably FF upgrades, and 1% are willing and able to pay the first class rate. Airlines have very well judged the "what the market will bear" against large corporations. We can only hope that the current economic downturn helps moderate the first class prices.<BR>I would suggest that most people should emphasize their disability to insist on their rights. For example, you might suffer an attack of severe arthritis in the shoulder that requires the armrest to be down for relief... and insist on it.<BR>

I believe this is something like a 20yr old policy with Southwest, and it was only mentioned in a memo recently as a reminder. The memo was not even about this subject. Most the other airlines have the same policy...so why all the flack. I don't like the crowded seats in coach either....but I understand why it is done....pure economics! As for Southwest...it is still the best,best fares. most consistant, safe, on time, relaxed and most reliable piloted airline there is.<BR>(we don't like their boarding policy of no assigned seats either...but hey, it works for them, their flights are usually full, prices good, friendly employees and they always "get you there safely" , and almost always<BR> on time! American Airlines has an extra couple of inches in their seat pitch on most planes in coach and we found it to be very noticable and nice.

So what happens if an overweight person, who has purchased one ticket, gets to the check in counter and the airline person says, "I'm sorry, but you will need to buy an extra seat", but it turns out the flight is full. Does the overweight person not get to fly? That doesn't seem fair.

Curous, if the guidelines are communicated correctly and clearly the person will know if they have to have a seat belt extender. OR they could have a sizer like they do for carryons.<BR>

I suppose you'll have to give your height and weight along with your credit card number when booking tickets from now on.

Don't worry Fodorite's sandi is just off her meds gain..She has a FAT COMPLEX..<BR><BR>She just has to show up once in awhile when they release her from the physic unit

Maurice I work for American Airlines, most of the people that you see in First Class are FF upgrades. Very rarely do we see a full fare passenger...as a flight attendant I can look at manifest and I can tell who upgraded and who paid..

As Americans get more and more obese, it is up to the airlines of the world to keep widening the seats to fit our wide asses. While you're at it, widen the doors to the plane and expand the size of the commodes in the bathrooms.

Funny how it was ok when certain airlines took out rows to give us more much needed leg room. Why can't they now just take a seat out of each row? Aren't the airlines supposed to be in a customer service industry?

Actually, I have to thank Southwest for giving us a new euphemism. Now instead of saying that my brother-in-law is “big boned”, we say “well, he pays double on Southwest”.

karen- tho this might have already been pointed out... there are some conditions that occur within the human body that you have no control over... ever heard of hypothyriodism? my mother sure has... and while she isn't a 300 lber she's still roughly 80 lbs larger than she should be... and that's on a strict diet that excludes any sweets, includes many vegetables, and has her on so many diff thyroid meds that it isn't funny... diet isn't helping her, exercise isn't shedding the weight... face it- some americans do have health conditions that they have no control over... and for the record... I do agree that someone who is seriously coming out of their seat and can not buckle their belt without an extender do need to pay for two seats... last time I checked you pay for what you get- or in this case use

those of you with the smoking thing- i invite all of you to witness me turn blue in teh face when in a room full of smoking smokers

for Barb who had to go and start a new thread on this 20 yr old policy of swa.<BR>

If you are too fat to fit in one seat, you should have to buy two seats, so sorry if it hurts anyones feelings, but come to grips, if your ass is too wide I don't want it overflowing on my side. I am 6'4 and 245, I fit in the seat, just not enough leg room, I would pay more for the extra leg room. I would not look for the ACLU to fight my battles.

Airlines gharge you if you have overweight luggage. Next time I demand that I and my luggage will be weighed together. Then that fatso next to me whose luggage weight is in acceptable brackets gets weighed together with her bags. Then we compare and see who has overweight.

Having been a flight attendant for 28 years, I have seen many large people shareing the seat of the others on their sides. I know it must be very painful for overweight people to have to endure this hardship on top of weight problems. It is also unfair for the poor people who are shareing their seats with them. Should they have to pay less because they are only getting part of a seat? Does anyone have any constructive ideas? Another question. Do you think people who book flights and don't bother to cancell should have to pay a penalty? Would this possibly stop airlines from overbooking? Do you think people should carry on bags that they cannot handle themselves?

I feel very strongly that there should be a 24-hr. cancellation policy such that those who do not cancel at least 24 hrs. ahead of time should have to pay full fare.<BR><BR>As to figuring out who should pay for 2 seats -- how on EARTH are they going to enforce that if the person booking the seat doesn't request the double-wide at the time of the reservation?<BR><BR>Are we all going to have our length, depth, and width measured and if the total dimensions exceed a certain number, we have to be checked with baggage? Or do we have to swear to a hip-circumference measurement at the time of booking? I'm small enough to fit in the seat just fine, in fact so small that the curves of the "lumbar support" in those seats and the neck rest hit me just wrong and I am terribly uncomfortable. I think I should be reimbursed for not taking up enough space.

&lt;&lt;Do you think people who book flights and don't bother to cancell should have to pay a penalty?&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>You have to be kidding. Those people already DO pay a huge penalty. It's called an unrestricted fare. Most other people pay 100% cancellation penalty if theyt no-show with the rampant number of non-refundable fares.<BR><BR>I don't think that over-booking is all due to full fare flying passengers. It's also due to re-booked passengers, who DO pay a fee for re-scheduling.<BR>

What is wrong with making people pay for the space that they occupy. I do not want the obese in my seat. I paid for the seat width and I intend to occupy it without the arm rest up. <BR><BR>I would also go for denied boarding for those who haven't had a shower in a week. An overseas flight next to a smelly passenger is quite uncomfortable.<BR><BR>As far as the smokers: sure let them smoke, just make them go outside to do it.

If you go to a restauarant and eat two steaks, you expect to pay for them don't you? If you take up two seats, then you should pay for them. Why should I pay for your seat if you are taking up some of my seat? <BR><BR>Babies don't have to pay as long as they sit on their parent's laps. Parents must pay for babies sitting in seats. Same should go for large people - if you take up more than a seat, you should purchase a second ticket.<BR><BR>It's economics. It is just so simple. One ticket, one seat. Take up two seats, you need two tickets.

As for smoking, why not make a smoking lavatory, especially designed to filter and handle the smoke. <BR><BR>The seats could be made more comfortable for all. A few more inches longer and wider. Make the plane wider, set the seats at the widest poing, do whatever it takes to make the ride more comfortable. Geeze, I've been on more comfortable seats on a Greyhound!<BR><BR>As for the cost, the airlines have enough screwey pricing strategies, why not build the cost of the seat accomodation into it. I'm just on the border of "seatbelt extension" and I can say, it is a most unpleasent experience to be packed into a small seat. The airlines just aren't customer focused in this situation. Yes, price dictates my purchase. I will spend $350 but not $650 for a trip from Detroit to LA.

"Bottom" line: <BR>Our overeating and sedentary lifestyles are no fault but our own. We choose to be the way we are. I praise SW Airlines for their balls - they shouldn't have to give up a paying seat to an ameba. <BR>Now, will any airlines EVER start enforcing the carryon rule? Everytime I fly, there are people with as much as four carryons and others with carryons about the size of a Hyndai Elantra.

So, ronda - - will you lobby just as vigorously, for two 40 pound 4-year-old twins to get to sit in one seat for the same price as an 80 pound 8-year-old?<BR><BR>And just how much would you like to see the 80 pound 8-year-old pay, relative to 160 pound adults?<BR><BR>Let proportional pricing be the rule. Give families with small children a break.<BR>

Can anyone declare themselves too large and get an empty seat beside them for the price of a discounted child's fare?<BR><BR>If not, then the airlines are sure to be looking at discrimination lawsuits.<BR><BR>With some of the low fares that Southwest offers, I think this might be worth paying for, even for those with a "normal" girth.<BR><BR>Hope RyanAir follows suit!<BR>

Wow...the way people rationalize is just nuts!! Why should you NOT pay for the space you consume. ? Our culture nowday thinks that someone else must be at fault for every social in in our country. Get real.

My wife is 5'2", 115 pounds. She fits in her seat well. She can cross her legs, stretch-out, even pull her knees up to her chest and sleep. <BR><BR>SHE FITS IN THE SEAT. Anyone with greater dimensions than her can sit in the seat...they just can't move very well.<BR><BR>A couple more inches in width and leg room would benefit all of us. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more to make up the difference for the increased comfort.<BR><BR>Folks that are 300 to 400 pounds are certainly not the norm. But many men weigh in at 220-250 and are close to, or over, 6 feet tall. They are not comfortable in an 18 inch (Southwest's dimensions) seat.

Dear "I love Kids", I love them too and I have two. As I recall this was not a discussion about the price of children's seats and I have no idea what they cost. All I know is that today on my United Flight the attendant walked around and asked parents with car seats with children in them in a separate seat if the children were ticketed. All were. Those parents holding infants on their laps had not purchased tickets. <BR><BR>I believe all children should be placed in car seats on a plane. If car seats are required in a car, why not an airplane? If they take up a seat, then they should pay for it. Price structure? Sounds like another topic.

Please keep the rats....<BR><BR>Please leave the rug-rats at home. Parents, teach your kids to be quiet and well-behaved on planes or leave them at home. There are plenty of young adults who would be happy to babysit. Don't be so self indulgent....

Ronda,<BR><BR>This thread is very MUCH about the price of a discounted child's fare. Go back and re-read the policy as described in writing by Southwest. It's quoted above. A discounted child's fare is supposedly the basis for the extra seat charge. But what is that discount?<BR><BR>And there still doesn't seem to be any definition of who MUST pay this extra fare, and who IS ALLOWED to pay it. Why won't everyone ask for it? Once again, re-read what their policy says. If the flight is not full, you get the surcharge refunded. Why wouldn't a lot of people ask to get a second seat if they are only slightly large?<BR><BR>If this is all about the WIDTH of the passenger, then it needs to be about size of shoulders as much as waist size. If it is about the WEIGHT of the passenger, then make proportional pricing meaningful and establish one price for travelers of 100-200 pounds, a lower price for those under 100 pounds and a higher price for those over 200 pounds.<BR>

A previous poster said that if one took up two seats one should pay for the extra seat. "Pay for the space..." but the seats and space are too small for even the "normal" sized (esp men) and it has been this way for quite a while. This problem is long overdue for correction.It is NOT corrected as it would not be as profitable to the airlines.The fat and the tall and the arthritic are just supposed to take it.Can you imagine them charging extra for wheelchairs? That would be too too politically incorrect(rightly so) but being fat or tall (you really aren't trying to stop growing are you?) and arthritic are fair game. After all fat prople are just supposed to feel shame and stop trying to have a life.

Re: '...but the seats and space are too small for even the "normal" sized (esp men)'<BR><BR>Hmmmm...I have to admit that I don't know what the dimensions of a "normal"-sized man are. At 5'10" and about 165, I feel fairly "normal"-sized and while I'd certainly love more room on second-class airline seats, they're also not "too small" for me. <BR><BR>I think airlines have the size of the seats they do because, by voting with their dollars and putting price above probably anything else, that's what consumers want. I mean, if airlines could increase the size of their seats without any negative impact, why *wouldn't* they? And how much bigger should they make them? 5% 10% 20% 30% ...

In discussing this question, is it necessary for most (not all) people to assign blame to overweight people for their size?<BR><BR> It seems to me the only way to address this problem is from a viewpoint that says we do not presume to know why the person has a body this size, but a body that's bigger than the seat causes a problem. Etc.<BR><BR> I seems to me Southwest is trying to be fair both to the person crowded out of his/her own seat by the large person, and to the large person too. It doesn't seem like a terrible solution to me. It gives the large person the option of finding a less-crowded flight and paying a single fare.

It's the same amenity-versus-price debate that every industry on Earth faces. Some people will trade amenity for price, others will pay a premium for more of it. <BR><BR>Unfortunately the airline industry is so competitive that they have failed to notice how plural the marketplace has become, although some, like British Airways, United, and most noticeably Midwest Express in the US, are catching on. The airlines can make a profit on every seat they sell, whether it be a 17 inch coach seat on Southwest or a 21 inch coach seat on Midwest; it just takes a bit more fiddling with the fare structure and a bit more complicated marketing plan. <BR><BR>Think about it - in the case of Southwest (or any of the rest of the carriers with similar, if not so foolishly publicised policies) they are prepared to sell you 34 inches of bum space for 150% to 200% of the economy fare. Together, the two seats will cost you something like 15% of the first class fare being paid by the VIPs up front. Is the wine that good up there? (Not that SWA has 1st class, but their fares are comparable to carriers that do.) <BR><BR>When SWA sells two seats to a big person, that's a third of a row, or 34 inches. If they reduced the 6-abreast seats to 5-abreast, they'd increase their seat width from 17 to 21 inches, the same as Midwest and as business class in most 3-class long-haul flights. There would be 20% fewer passengers flying in those rows, so the revenue per seat-inch per mile would need to go up to equal that being paid by the proles.<BR><BR>Will people pay 20% more for a comfortable seat? Well, some will, and if financial reports mean anything, many, many will. Midwest is making money with that configuration (actually, 4-abreast on DC-9s and MD-80s) operating many of the same routes as SWA.<BR><BR>You can buy anything from a Rolls Royce to a Twingo, and there's a market for every car - a mass market for some models, an "exclusive" market for the Roller, and a big, differentiated, discriminating market that buys Fords and Jags and Fiats and Volvos, according to each buyer's balance of amenity v. cost. In the airlines, its Twingos and Rollers, and SFA between. But maybe all this publicity, and the "big one" coming down the track, "economy class syndrome," will make some airlines look at their product and decide if they can't sell some more comfortable seats at a 20% uptick, rather than endure the negative publicity poor SWA is receiving. The gits.