Feedback on Europe itinerary
 

Please help critic my itinerary. Also Please note that I can not change the dates or the start or end location as I fly into Barcelona and out of Athens (tickets are booked). If you can recommend cheap but air conditioned places to stay or parts of the city to stay. Particularly for Venice and Rome. First trip to this part of Europe.

Interests: Nature, Old historic sites, Landscapes, Castles, Beach, History, some museums but only a few, Beer and food.

25.08.18- Depart Australia
26.08.18 - barcelona - Land 2pm
27.08.18 - barcelona
28.08.18 - barcelona
29.08.18 - barcelona
30.08.18 - Fly from barcelona to paris
31. 08.18 - Paris
01.09.18 - Paris
02.09.18 - Paris
03.09.18 - Train Paris to Brugee
04.09.18 - Brugee (day tirp Ghent)
05.09.18 - Brugee
06.09.18 - Train to Brussels
07.09.18 - Fly Germany
08.09.18 - Germany
09.09.18 - Germany
10.09.18 - Fly Germany to Krakow
11.09.18 - Krakow
12.09.18 - Krakow
13.09.18 - Fly Krakow to Venice
14.09.18 - Venice
15.09.18 - Venice
16.09.18 - Venice/ Lake Garda Or Alternate go straight to florence
17.09.18 - Lake Garda Or alternate Florence (then add 1 day in Rome and add 1 day in Athens)
18.09.18 - Lake Garda / Florence
19.09.18 - Florence side trip to Pisa
20.09.18 - Florence
21.09.18 - Train Florence to Sorrento
22. 09.18 - Sorrento
23.09.18 - Sorrento (rent car amalfi coast)
24. 09.18 - Sorrento (Pompai day trip with car)
25.09.18 - Sorrento (Capri)
26.09.18 - Train Sorrento to Rome
27.09.18 - Rome (Vatican City)
28.09.18 - Rome
29.09.18 - Rome fly to Greek island (maybe Rhodes)
30.09.18 - Rhodes?
01.10.18 - Rhodes?
02.10.18 - Rhodes?
3.10.18 - Fly to Athens
4.10.18 - Athens
5.10.18 - Athens
6.10.18 - Fly Back to Melbourne

Are you sure you can see and do what you want in this time? It seems quite rushed to me – and I travel HARD! Some examples: Only 3 days in Paris? Only 2 days in Krakow? 2 days for all of Germany? 2 days for Rome? Two months of travel with no real downtime anywhere? Honestly, I think you’ve got at least twice as many destinations as is realistic, but YMMV.

And why would you rent a car for the Amalfi Coast? It certainly isn’t necessary and could be a serious impediment.

Beyond that, I don’t know how we can comment, as you have told us nothing of your interests – which matter!

Good luck!

For me, too many destinations, not enough time in cities like Paris, Florence, Rome, practically no time in small towns, no "cushion" to accommodate for delays or minor changes in sightseeing plans.

What does "fly to Germany" mean?

I wouldn't rent a car for one day on the Amalfi Coast. I'm not sure what the point would be.

Why wouldn't you rent a car for the Amafli Coast?

We would be staying in Sorrento and thought driving would be a nice option. What would be the best way to see this area?

Not counting your arrival and departure days you have 40 days and 14+ destinations. My head would spin. Just because one has a 'lot' of days doesn't mean you have to cram every day full and move all over Europe. 14 destinations (and I'm only counting Germany as one since you don't mention specific places) you will spend fully 8 days (or even a bit more) in transit. You'll be on the move a LOT.

My guess is Germany isn't a big 'must' since you haven't mentioned any destinations there -- perhaps cut it entirely and add those 3.5 days elsewhere. Still too many places IMO.

didn't see your latest post . . . >>Why wouldn't you rent a car for the Amafli Coast?<<

Because driving on the AC can be a huge hassle.

Right! You can see it by bus or ferry, and actually SEE it, instead of having to spend every moment watching the road and the traffic -- AND you won't have to worry about parking, which can be a serious pain in the area during high season.

Starting at the end. Why Rhodes? End of September direct flights won't be common from Rome. Skyscanner claims Alitalia has a flight the 29th of Sept but Alitalia itself isn't showing it.

Barcelona stay in between Placa Catalunya and the beach. You'll be able to walk to most tourist sites.

Venice is small enough you don't need to be too selective. Closer to the train station will mean less distance to haul your luggage.

Florence also stay in the centre.

Rome the historic centre is bigger but if you stay between the Vatican and the Colouseem area you're still relatively walkable.

For the number of days start planning out sites in each city.

If we cut out Germany, where would you add the extra days?
I'm guessing you think I should cut out Lake Garda then too?

Actually I would leave in Lake Garda. For one thing it's one of the few places on your list that isn't a rather major city. You list nature as an interest but there's not a lot of that on your itinerary. Second, it's just a short train ride from Venice and Florence so doesn't add a whole lot of extra travel time. But stay on the northern half of the lake (e.g. Malcesine) even though that will require a boat ride to get to (but that in itself is relaxing).

Definitely do not rent a car for the Amalfi Coast!!!! You are staying in Sorrento which makes sense given you also want to see Pompeii, Capri and Amalfi/Positano. All easily done by public transportation.

The main problem I see with your itinerary is not the number of moves but the number of flights. A flight of any duration (even just an hour) will require most of the day (getting from city center to airport, security and check in times, flight, getting from the second airport to the next city center, etc.). If your destinations are closer together you can just take a train (4 hours or less is usually not so disruptive, trains leave from the center of cities, etc.).

So I would drop Krakow. It's a wonderful city but it's out of the way, and dropping it will allow you to drop two flights - so total of four days saving right there. Look at a map of Europe and you will see. So from Belgium you could train into nearby Germany (Rhine Valley?) and then maybe one more destination between there and Venice. Right now you have 7 days between Belgium and Venice which is a decent amount of time to make your way there stopping in a couple of places in Germany and Austria. It also looks like you have one night in Brussels which is not necessary, just add the night to Brugge and do a day trip.

At the end of the trip, the Greece part. If you choose an island closer to Athens you could take a ferry from it to Athens cutting out yet another flight. Ferry rides are pleasant and relaxing where as a flight is not. Santorini would work. You have four days and two flights for the Greek island portion, with that amount of time you could fly into Santorini for two nights, then ferry half way to Athens and stop in Naxos or Paros for another two nights.

Krakow is somewhere I have we have our heart set on. We really want to go to the concentration camp Auschwitz. We will have 2 full days and then the half day on the day we arrive.

I do like the idea of Lake Garda, I really want to go. However, it seems difficult to get too. I found researching routes to get there a bit difficult from Venice and was told it would waste a bit of time to get there. How would you recommend getting there? And other than cutting Poland where would I shorten?

My husband did have an interest in Germany and Rhine Valley, but I wasn't too keen. After posting on here and when everyone suggested our plans were too jam packed and rushed, he agreed to cut out Germany.
Adding an extra day in Athens, Paris (5 nights instead of 4) and Belgium (1 more night) to allow a relaxed day in Belgium for down time.

Rhodes is an island my brother has been too. He recommends it bc it is beautiful, has a bit of history like a preserved castle, as well as beaches. He said he was there for a week and could have stayed longer. I will look into the two islands you recommend also.

I'm giving myself the deadline of planning everything Friday next week as I'm too indecisive and need to start booking.

The problem with Rhodes isn't Rhodes. The problem is the end of September you'll find it hard to get to from Italy. Rome to Rhodes is usually a seasonal flight. Problem is the season is often over by mid September.

Rome to Rhodes just has a small layover in Athens. We wont even need to leave airport. It's not difficult to get too. Rhodes to Athens is a direct flight. It would take similar time to get off at Athens and then take a ferry to another island. If we do that option, what websites would you use to plan a ferry so we could fly to Athens and get a ferry on the same day?

We want to avoid tours and do our trip ourselves

I have to agree with the others that after a good start this speeds up too much. There is a big difference between rushing a two week trip and rushing a two month one, You need time to chill with a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, to buy toothpaste or check your bank and credit card accounts (get a VPN if you are using wifi) and to allow for snafus. Time is a luxury, enjoy it. (And I should warn you that it took me several days to recover from the emotional impact of visiting Auschwitz.)

I also vote against a car for the Amalfi Coast. Using buses and ferries will allow both of you to enjoy the views, and you will not have to worry about parking. The road is not exactly an easy drive, either.

I would be inclined to drop Belgium rather than the Rhine valley, dropping both would allow you to add days to some of Paris, Krakow, Venice, Rome and Greece. I would keep the Italian Lake District, for good scenery and some down time, but I would pick Lake Como or Lake Maggiore (my preference is for Maggiore with its islands).

This is the site I used to plan my trip to Greece: http://greecetravel.com/

In Barcelona I recommending staying north of the Placa da Catalunya in the Eixample area, much nicer and still convenient. (See: https://mytimetotravel.wordpress.com...s-the-ramblas/ )

Book long-distance train tickets as as it is possible -often up to 3 months or more to get discounted ticket which can sell out early - save tons over full fare- check www.seat61.com for lots on doing that online yourself-general info trains www.bugeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

Yes flying Belgium to Germany - to where? Often trains cheaper and quicker except Berlin and Munich, etc.

Many people find it hard to see what they want of lovely Krakow with a visit of 4 or 5 full days.

I spend three days in Krakow and did Auschwitz by train (bus may be better) and Wieliczka Salt Mines just south of town (UNESO WORLD HERITAGE SITE) and saw all I wanted to of Krakow so everyone is different.

Agree with the crowd...too many places...too many days wasted in transit.

Also, as said, we don't know your interests...but here is a rough suggestion:

Barcelona
Paris
Somewhere in Germany (don't know enough to suggest, but folks I talk to love Berlin)
Krakow (don't know enough to suggest and would not be on my A-list...but since you want to go)
Venice
Rome
Athens

I did not offer number of days in each...that would be based on your interests...but a first trip to these places, I'd devote considerable time to Paris and Rome. Both have tons of things to see and offer a number of great day-trips to add variety.

ss

Lodgings in Rome--
We've stayed at the Hotel Alimandi Vaticano, and we've had family and friends stay there since. Has A/C. Generally well priced. Smallish rooms. Almost across the street from the entrance to the Vatican Museum. They also have a shuttle service to the airport you can pay for. Hotel Alimandi Vaticano Rome ? OFFICIAL SITE - Accommodation Vatican

There are also many apartments you can rent, and it states if they have A/C. Check booking.com and Homeaway.com in addition to airbnb. My friends were struggling to finish their travel plans when one of the family got sick last spring. So I ended up helping them find a place in Rome. They ended up staying at this one. They really liked it and the A/C was solid. You obviously don't need two bedrooms, but the garden is nice.

https://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p1961754

You said you want to go to Krakow to visit Auschwitz. If you went to Munich instead of Krakow (as I said, that would cut out 2 flights and is more on a direct route) you could visit Dachau. This article has some information on both of them. https://community.ricksteves.com/tra...entration-camp
I have only been to Auschwitz and while it was a moving and informative experience I wouldn't go all the way to Krakow just for that, especially since there are others which in your case are more convenient. Krakow is a lovely city and I'm glad I visited it, but so are so many other places in Europe.

Re Garda vs another lake such as Como or Maggorie, Garda is more 'on the way' between Venice and Florence than the others. We're only talking a few hour difference but I actually think Garda is my favorite (been to all of them). You would train from Venice to Desenzano. You could just base there and take boats on day trips but the more scenic part of the lake is the northern half. So you would walk (or take a taxi I guess if you have a ton of luggage or mobility issues, but it's a pleasant down hill walk from the train to the boat) to the ferry and take a boat to Malcesine or Limone or Riva. Sirmionie is on the southern half and has a really nice castle but it's gets very crowded with day trippers mid day.

Sirminone even in October was mobbed during day but the extensive Roman ruins site was not and a reason to visit IMO.

Krakow is a great city in its own right - indeed veteran traveler kja above said 5 days was not really enough for her/him - in many ways the historic capital of Poland - and a city unlike Warsaw not decimated in WW2 - so don't just consider Krakow because of Auschwitz but also one of the nicest cities in Eastern Europe.

What did you like about Krakow. What did you do there?

I spent one day on a group tour to Auschwitz/Birkenau, which I arranged through the TI office. I found it incredibly moving and extremely well done -- sensitive, thoughtful, and respectful. I am glad I had planned on a very quiet evening afterwards, and likewise, a very quiet next day.

Krakow has a remarkable array of glorious churches (some of the interior decorations are utterly awesome), a castle with many delightful nooks and crannies, a number of lovely gardens and parks, a glorious central square with lots of cafes and people-watching options, market areas well worth visiting whether you are interested in shopping or not, some neighborhoods worth browsing if you like that kind of thing, one of Europe's oldest universities (some utterly awesome parts of which can be visited), and some glorious museums. If you have ANY interest in art, I would encourage you to seek the Lady with an Ermine – she is truly special.

I didn’t visit the Wieliczka Salt Mine, but only because I didn’t have sufficient time. Having seen the salt mine in Salzach, I am quite sure I would have treasured Wieliczka, too.

If you don’t already have a guidebook, please get one! The cost will be nominal in comparison to the cost of your trip, and you stand to learn SOOooooo much, including things that could easily save you money, not to mention all the things you can’t possible ask about because you won’t know to ask about them!

Auschwitz/Birkenau is of course chilling, unforgettable, important. But there is much to see in Krakow. The Veit Stoss altarpiece in St. Mary's. Da Vinci's Lady with an Ermine. Kazimierz. The Krakow During the Nazi Occupation exhibit, which is housed in Schindler's Factory. Cloth Hall. Wawel Castle and its Cathedral. The Collegium Maius of Jagiellonian University Gorgeous Rynek Glowny. The beautiful, leafy Planty. And there's much more.

Rome Hotel Reco: Hotel Arenula in the Jewish Quarter. We have stayed there twice with satisfaction...though the last time was 2013.

• Excellent location, especially for walking to Trastevere for dinner. (Rome is one of the most walkable cities I know.)
• Not as easily accessible from airport as some hotels. Take the local train (FL1 I think) to Trastevere station, then tram 8. But the second time we were there (with our son & daughter-in-law), the hotel booked a car for 50 Euros...not much more than train fare for four people.
• No lift...so you may want to be sure they give you a room on the first or second floor.

ssander

Nowa Hutna is a part of Krakow planned as a new town during commie era - interesting concept and where the former Polish Pope held out so kind of a pilgrimage mecca to him - as they say about Nowa Huta - "Rome was not built in a day but Nowa Huta was"

https://www.google.com/search?q=nowa...w=1879&bih=922

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowa_Huta

>>> Rome Hotel Reco: Hotel Arenula in the Jewish Quarter. We have stayed there twice with satisfaction...though the last time was 2013.

I used to stay there often. The location is excellent, especially for a first trip, because you can walk to nearly everything from there. Nowadays I tend to go to Rome mostly for one specific reason, and I choose my location based on the reason for the trip.

I don't think they have any rooms on the ground floor, which is what Americans call the first floor. The reception is on the 1st floor, which to Americans is the second floor. If you are two people and need help with the bags, one of you can walk up and they'll send someone down to help you.

Thanks everyone for their feedback. We decided to cut out Germany and cut out Lake Garda. I have added in purple where additions have been made. Now, I have been thinking about adding a day to Krakow to make it 3 whole days. However, where can I remove the other day from? I can not move anything before Krakow as my husband booked flights today Brussels to Krakow.
Revised Plan is:
25.08.18- Depart Australia
26.08.18 - barcelona - Land 2pm
27.08.18 - barcelona
28.08.18 - barcelona
29.08.18 - barcelona
30.08.18 - Fly from barcelona to paris
31. 08.18 - Paris
01.09.18 - Paris
02.09.18 - Paris
03.09.18 - Paris (1 night added in revision)
04.09.18 - Train Paris to Brugee
05.09.18 - Brugee (1 night added in revision)
06.09.18 - Brugee (day trip to Ghent) ----husband agreed to remove Germany if one day was added in Belgium. I can not change this, so please do not comment on this.
07.09.18 - Brugee
08.09.18 - Brussels
09.09.18 - Fly Brussels to Krakow. Arrive Krakow 1.30pm
10.09.18 - Krakow
11.09.18 - Krakow
12.09.18 - Fly Krakow to Venice
13.09.18 - Venice
14.09.18 - Venice
15.09.18 - Morning Train to Florence
16.09.18 - Florence (1 night added to Florence)
17.09.18 - Florence side trip to Pisa
18.09.18 - Florence
19.09.18 - Morning Train Florence to Sorrento
20.09.18 - Sorrento
21.09.18 - Sorrento - amalfi coast
22. 09.18 - Sorrento (Pompai day trip with car)
23.09.18 - Sorrento (Capri)
24. 09.18 - Morning Train Sorrento to Rome
25.09.18 - Rome (1 night added since revision)
26.09.18 - Rome
27.09.18 - Rome (Vatican City)
28.09.18 - Rome to Greek Islands (still in decision process).My preference to fly to island from Rome.
29.09.18 - Greek island
30.09.18 - Greek Island
01.10.18 - Greek Island
02.10.18 - Fly to Athens
3.10.18 - Athens ( 1 night added)
4.10.18 - Athens
5.10.18 - Athens
6.10.18 - Fly Back to Melbourne

Your days in Florence include a Sunday/Monday. Since many of the main Florence sights are closed every or alternating Sundays or Mondays, check the open/closed dates and times for each place you want to see. You may want to change your day trip to Pisa to Sunday. If you want to climb the Leaning Tower, you have to make a timed reservation. You should also make reservations for things in Florence you want to see that offer that option. It will save you wasting time in lines.

Why Pompeii day trip by car? Trains go right to entrance from Sorrento - why car? Curious.

bvlenci...

Yes...you are correct...there are no rooms on the ground floor of the Hotel Arenula, and reception is on the first floor. There are some rooms on the first floor, and the second floor is not too much of a climb once you get your bags there.

About the great location: The thing that always amazed me about Rome was that -- especially on our first trip -- we were constantly walking past streets we were looking for because everything was so much closer than it appeared on the map. :-) Of course, today, with GPS on our phones, that would not happen, because we would know our position on the map. A great, thoroughly walkable city. (On occasion, with the traffic jams, walking was faster than the bus.)

ssander

Yes I've found Rome always walkable - have never taken bus or taxi or metro and a day of walking between sights always yields new discoveries not planned on - historic center of Rome surprisingly compact.

PalenQ...

You are so right. One of the great pleasures of Rome is finding the unexpected around nearly every corner...piazzas, fountains, palazzi, churches, ancient ruins...it's a never-ending feast...and the gelato is great, too!...try to find riso -- rice gelato...amazing!

Tip: A great, but not well-visited, church is Santa Prassede with it's fantastic mosaics. And Santa Sabina will take you back to Christian Rome before the fall of the empire.

ssander

Wasn't aware that it was easy to get too from Sorrento.

Although, I cant change my flights from Brussels to Krakow, I do have room for movement between Barcelona and Paris. I've just been looking at Belgium and although DH wants to go, I think 4 nights would be plenty, I'm not interested in the fries museum and Belgium looks boring, am I right? So If I cut the day from Belgium, thereby allowing me to add a day in Barcelona and possible do a day trip or I was contemplating, instead of doing the flight to Paris, I could do the train, but rather than doing one long train commute Barcelona to Paris, I could stop to somewhere in France for the night instead and then the next day do a shorter commute to Paris from somewhere in France. Ideally somewhere scenic and full of natural beauty.

Or is Belgiums reputation of being boring not justified?

I've never found Belgians, or Belgium, to be boring. But I think it's pretty clear at this point that my interests are quite different than yours.

I wasn't aware that Belgium had a reputation for being boring. Brussels, perhaps, but the whole country? Belgium is one of my favorite places to visit in Europe - so much variety in such a small country, amazing food, and easy as pie to get around. But I also like Brussels, so maybe it's just me.

>> And Santa Sabina will take you back to Christian Rome before the fall of the empire.

The Basilica of Santa Sabina, on the Aventine Hill, is one of my favorite churches in Rome. It was built in the 4th century, and there's a dedication mosaic (inside) over the main entrance, with the Latin inscription. The mosaic shows two women, one Greek and one Hebrew, representing the two main branches of Christianity at that time. There are other churches in Rome from the same period, but the others have been modified so much that the interior doesn't resemble at all the early Christian originals. Santa Sabina was modified, but not extensively, and the modifications were mostly removed in the early 20th century. What remains is a typical ancient Roman basilica, with some remaining medieval modifications. (In ancient Rome, a basilica was any large public building, for example, a law court.)

In ancient times, the Aventine Hill was part of the large and flourishing Jewish community in Rome, which extended down to the modern Ghetto and across the river into Trastevere. It's believed that the original Jewish settlement was in Trastevere.

Around the side of the church, an original door, with wooden bas relief carvings, can be seen. Ancient Roman wood carvings are very rare, because wood doesn't hold up well over time. The door has panels representing Biblical scenes. One has the earliest known representation of Jesus on the cross.

The adjacent city orange garden has very nice views over the Tiber. And further up the hill, you can look through the keyhole in the gate of the villa of the Order of the Knights of Malta, which frames perfectly, with a border of cypress trees, the cupola of St. Peter's Basilica. This villa is, like the Vatican, sovereign territory, although not a recognized country. They do have an embassy, located inside the villa. It's possible to take guided tours inside, where there is a very nice church, Santa Maria del Priorato, intricately decorated by the 18th century artist, Giovanni Battista Piranesi, famous for his etchings of Rome. He also designed the gate, and the idea of making a keyhole that framed St. Peter's. I believe the villa also hosts weddings and other events. They seemed to be setting up for an event when we were there.

One could spend a very pleasant day in this area, including the three little ancient temples at the foot of the hill, the theatre of Marcellus, the Jewish Ghetto. and the Great Synagogue. I often think it's a shame that the people I see trudging along on the overly-beaten path between the Vatican, Trevi Fountain, the Spanish Steps and the Colosseum don't skip a few of these insanely crowded spots to catch their breath and enjoy some of the hidden gems of the city.

What do you recommend and where?

Well many would recommend Bruges (though some detested it because of Disneyesqueness and many other tourists) and Gent - many find Brussels underwhelming but like any large world capital it has its pluses just hard to ferret out in a quick look like many take. I love Antwerp but it don't have the old looks of Gent and Bruges but in many ways is fascinating - largely built up in heyday of circa-1900 it seems when it was one of the world's largest ports which it still is. Art Nouveau is one type of architecture that shines here.