European hotels generally substandard.
 

I know that readers of the Fodors message board generally do not like broad stereotypes, but I have a major one that I am convinced is true---- That hotels in Europe are poor value for the money and are generally poor overall. <BR> <BR>I love traveling in Europe, but I hate European hotels. My wife and I have traveled to Europe 8 times and have seen most countries in western Europe. Almost without exception we find the quality of the hotels in all European countries to be poor. <BR> <BR>I miss the following in European hotels: <BR>(generally found in most Asian and American hotels): <BR> <BR>Soundproofing (I can't tell you the number of times I have been kept up by door slamming and loud TVs from nearby rooms) <BR> <BR>Lack of vending and ice machines <BR> <BR>Poor quality televisions (16 inch is the standard) <BR> <BR>Hard single beds with poor quality sheets and blankets <BR> <BR>Lack of excercise rooms, swimming pools, nice lobbies and common areas. <BR> <BR>Unpleasant cold service at the check in areas <BR> <BR>Small rooms with lack of things like irons, computer hookups, etc. <BR> <BR>I have stayed at places in Europe that cost up to $400.00 a night and always feel ripped off. What would be a four star hotel in Rome, would not even pass for a Days Inn in America. Does anyone agree?

Ugly: You're staying at the wrong hotels, stay at the American chains like Marriott, Sheraton, Westin, etc. Amenities are very similar to the hotels in the U.S., although the prices are in fact higher.

i personally don't agree but than again it all depends upon what you're looking for in an hotel. In europe, as well as just about anywhere else, clean, quiet, and convenient are my main criteria. But in europe i also consider charm and character of the local surroundings. In these areas I think europe hotels are far superior. In the states I love a nice marriott and their huge buffet breakfasts, swimming pools, etc. In europe, most of the time in the hotel is spent sleeping and resting. The rest of the time we're out. Also, most europe hotels are in buildings that are very old and not originally designed to be hotels. Many didn't even have plumbing and electricity when they were first built. I think there are 'american' style hotel in most major europe cities, but they tend to be a little out of the way (just to find the land to build them on). I suppose it's all a matter of taste and priorities. Recent trips to Europe we've stayed in primarily 3* & 4* (and 1 2*) hotels in major cities. we have yet to be dissappointed.

I stayed at a Novotel in Paris that had everything you mentioned. <BR>Three stars also. <BR>I thought is was much better than any Days Inn I've stayed at in the US. <BR>We had one of the best bathrooms I have ever seen. <BR>Also, I have stayed in some 4 stars in Naples, that again had everything you mentioned. As for the American chains, we also stayed in a Holiday Inn in London, that had everything you are looking for. <BR> <BR> <BR>I guess it just depends on the big selection you generally have and taking a chance. <BR>When I am doing research for a city I am going to, this board has been a big help. Also, you can find hotels offering the things you are looking for by doing searches. Many sites offer you the possiblity to pick and choose what you want in a room. <BR> <BR>

In Europe, we usually go for "old and charming". We never expect American hotel ammenities, but are sometimes pleasantly surprised by just how modern the rooms are, despite being housed in very old buildings. As noted above, you CAN find American-style hotels, but you miss part of what makes Europe such a great place to visit. <BR> <BR>The choice of "charming vs. modern" sometimes gets played out in America too. When we spent a week in Glacier National Park in Montana, we stayed at an historic old lodge hotel, rather than a less expensive motel with much "better" facilities.

Hi <BR>I hope this topic stays a civilized discussion, but I'm not optimistic. <BR>Here are my 2 cents: <BR>"Substandard" meaning below <BR>whose or which standards? If you mean below the standards that you prefer, then take the first resoponder's advice and look for American-style or business-oriented hotels, usually chains like Westin, Intercontinental, Concorde, etc. <BR>They are more likely to have the amenities you prefer, although it is best to inquire in advance rather than assume. <BR>The star-ratings are based on government standards and the star rating system includes things like the size of the lobby, the number of private bathrooms, <BR>etc. Personal recommendations on hotels are best, because a two-star or a three-star at the top of its category could be a much better value, in more than price, than a four-star at the bottom of its category. <BR>Many European hotels are not new construction because many cities have restrictions about erecting or renovating buildings in the city centers--that is to maintain some of the charm we go looking for. So in the absence of gut-renovations, some hotels, even chain members, are modified older buildings that are not necessarily going to have large elevators, or gyms, or computer jacks,or even huge hot water heaters. T <BR>However, Americans are not the only travelers, and my impression is that <BR>not all European or Asian travelers <BR>will expect or require a large-screen tv or a gym. <BR>I can't speak for irons, I was able to borrow one once in a European hotel, but it wasn't in the room to start with. <BR>I don't know if this is an issue or not, but there may be some fire-safety concerns. As you know, many European hotel bathrooms do not allow for any appliances to be plugged in except for electric shavers. <BR> <BR>We each like what we like. I think you should go looking for the amenities you want, and for a price, you will find them. It's like trying to rent an automatic transmission car in Europe. <BR>It can be done, but it's not the norm based on the local culture, and you will pay more for it if you can find it.

Well, UglyA, you've done a service for first tme European travlers by highlighting cultural differences in hotel customer expectations. I, too, was taken aback by hotels my first time to Europe. I expected (and the definition of quality has something to do with customer expectations, right?) American type lodging, but found something different. In retrospect, all but one of the hotels were clean and adequate to tend to basic needs (rest, hygiene) but not of the same mold as American chains. <BR>Chances are my expectations will change before the culture of several countries. Humor helps - my favorite is a European relative who expressed wonder at "why Americans would spend all that money for a hotel with a bowling alley (pool, etc.)..if you want to bowl, do it at home. Travel is for seeing and doing things that are not available to you at home." <BR>

"my favorite is a European relative who expressed wonder at "why Americans would spend all that money for a hotel with a bowling alley (pool, etc.)..if you want to bowl, do it at home. Travel is for seeing and doing things that are not available to you at home" <BR> <BR>Quite so. There was a posting here recently from someone moaning that they had to pay extra if they wanted more than the terrestrial TV stations in London. They'd crossed the Atlantic, were staying in one of the great cultural centres of the world, awash with theatres, museums, pubs, clubs etc. and they wanted to stay in their room watching TV?!

What an insulting statement!! <BR>When that is said, I must agree that I felt the US hotel and even motel standard very comfortable and very high. With zero personality, though. <BR> <BR>Big and vasting cars might be a metaphore. Who needs them, really? <BR>Some decades ago Europeans might have envied the luxury American way, but that's long ago. Primary needs goes with modesty. Main sights most often show extreme recent luxury, and that is interesting. But tending to maintain and to live in that luxory is not the most tempting thing. <BR>So, shame on you Americans that can not stand a medium sized and comfortable European hotel room. Eouropeans also are used to pay at least an Euro per litre of gaz. <BR>Bjorn, Oslo <BR>

I go for old and charming as well in Paris and Dublin, but London is harder and we prefer a modern hotel or some kind of apartment there. On our first trip there in 1991, our hotel (recommended in a well known travel guide) was absolutely disgusting. We couldn't believe we were paying $85 for a broken window, flies buzzing around the room, clouds of cigarette smoke, and nothing between us and the mattress except a thin sheet. Luckily, they moved us to another of their hotels that was a bit more acceptable. I don't need a pool, big lobby, tv, or ice machine, but I do need cleanliness!

In Europe this past June, we averaged around $75 a night. Couldn't believe we were in such nice, clean, often charming, surroundings. In the US, that price usually gets us Motel 6.

Bjorn, don't you think you are being too judgemental? So what if someone wants an ice machine! I remember staying in a few hotels last year in America and it seemed that whenever they gave me something substandard (wine/cheese basket with processed crap, stale croissants) they called it "European-style"--and you know what? They were right!

Can't we just say that the standards are different? I must say, one of the things that I miss when I travel is a nice, thick, American overly-absorbent towel. But what I get in return is more valuable to me than the predictable conveniences at the cookie-cutter hotels found throughout the U.S. And keep in mind, some of your noted differences are cultural - most Europeans only have single beds, so why should hotels be any different? <BR> <BR>There's nowhere in the U.S. that I've been able to lean out of my hotel window to people-watch the crowds walking by the Arno, or eat breakfast on a flower-filled rooftop terrace. It's only in Italy that I've stayed in a former monastery, in the midst of acres of olive trees and vineyards. I really miss those cozy "comforters" in Germany and Austria, and dream with longing of freshly-made croissants and coffee eaten at an outdoor cafe in Paris. Which I reached with a 1-minute walk from my small hotel room that had a luxurious bathroom. <BR> <BR>If I think I might be hungry at night, I can stop at a bakery for bread, or buy some fine French/Swiss/whatever chocolate. Though I usually have food left over from some market we passed where I couldn't resist buying some fresh figs, or a local variety of melon that we don't have in the States. I can even have wine in my room, if I so desire. <BR> <BR>I get lots of exercise walking around the beautiful cities and towns, and am much too tired to watch the TV by the end of the evening after a leisurely meal at some lovely outdoor cafe. <BR> <BR>My goal during a nice trip in the U.S. is to recreate my experience at those charming hotels that I've stayed at in Europe.

I will probably be criticised by the Fodor's Pharisees for making a statement, but, I will anyway. I don't think European hotel standards are paltry compared to America. I just think they are different. In Europe, most would not go to a hotel to watch TV or go to the gym. A hotel is a place to sleep. Also, you get what you pay for. Most Americans who go to Europe stay in very expensive places like London, Paris, Florence, Venice, etc. If you want creature comforts in these places you have to pay for them. $400 a night will get you nothing, just as $400 a night will get you nothing in New York City. I'm sure if you went to Coimbra in Portugal you could rent a villa for $400 a night. It is the law of supply and demand. That is why you can stay in a huge room at the Holiday Inn in Scranton, PA for only $90 a night. Scranton is hardly a tourist destination with millions of people lining up to book rooms.

Yes hotels in Europe may not be cookie cutter and have a stange form of charm. Just like a small house advertsed by realesate agents call a overly small house charming and cozy. <BR> <BR>I have stayed at hotels of all price ranges in all parts of Europe from small town to Paris, London and Rome. The best that could be said for 99% of them is they were "different" I think the worst hotel values are in Amsterdam and Rome. In Rome, we were not happy with the place we reserved (The Grand Hotel Hermitage) 4 Star, but a real noisy dump, so we went looking for a better hotel. Visited 10 places trying to find something nice for under $200.00 and not one was even up to the standards of an American Super Eight. <BR>I love Europe but hate European hotels!

Hey Ugly: We stayed at the Marriott Grand Flora on the Via Veneto in Rome last year for $250 and it was up to Marriott standards in the U.S. and in a charming old palazzo overlooking the Borghese Gardens. Stayed at the Crowne Plaza Minerva also in Rome for the same price and it again was in an old palazzo overlooking the Pantheon and was better than any Crowne Plaza I've seen in the States. <BR> <BR>If you think Rome is a rip-off, check out Venice. $400 gets a very basic accomodation, nowhere near as nice as in Rome.

Hey Ugly, it's me again. I think I see your problem. I looked up the Grand Hotel Hermitage on the internet and found it is located in the Parioli district, that's your first mistake, not near any of the sights. It's located in a "modern" building and by the picture it seems unsubstantial to say the least. It's currently undergoing renovations, which means it was unrenovated when you stayed. Lastly, what did you expect to find for under $200 as a last minute walk in. When you think Rome, think Manahattan not Sandusky, as a previous poster implied. <BR> <BR>Homework up-front will save a lot of grief when you arrive at your hotel.

But at least they have character! I thought that was all part of the fun.

I think there is a bit of stereotyping going on here… <BR> <BR>How about we turn the tables on the U.S.? Just take a look at the Fodors rants and raves section for New Orleans – where we plan to go next month. I’ve been examining it very closely because we’ve been trying to find somewhere to stay, and I was surprised to see that that there are LOADS of rants about some of the city’s supposedly top notch hotels. There are many complaints about them being severely lacking in many departments, including bad service, small rooms, mould, lack of atmosphere and cockroaches. Yum. <BR> <BR>A previous poster made a good point about people getting more for their money in places off the tourist trail. I think hotels in any top tourist city tend to rest on their laurels to some extent or other – unless you’re lucky, or can afford to pay absolutely top whack. <BR> <BR>Kate – London <BR>

Micia: <BR>Could you list some of the web sites that list details of hotels? I am looking for a site for European countries. <BR> <BR>As for the general commentary, I do like a place that has cable tv because as a solo female traveler, I choose not to go out to pubs and night clubs alone at night. After eating dinner, I am back at the hotel and it is nice to catch up with CNN or watch a movie. <BR> <BR>But I am not worried about the other amenities. When I travel for pleasure and not business, I am a budget traveler. My main requirements are relatively inexpensive, clean and in a safe area. TV and air conditioning are nice, but when I travel, I usually use the room only to sleep and change and shower and store my luggage. Always get tons of excercise walking and climbing stairs - have never used a gym on a vacation and don't gain weight. <BR> <BR>I have not traveled to Europe yet. Planning to. Uglyamerican, seems that the things that you are looking for would be in a hotel that caters to business travelers. You need to search for hotels in business magazines or if you work for a company, they often have a travel department that can make recommendations for you.

If I wanted an ice machine in my European hotel room, I'd just bring along a woman I once dated. :^) <BR> <BR>Seriously, things like ice or vending machines, televisions, and swimming pools have never been prerequistes for any hotels I've stayed at in Europe. <BR> <BR>I've stayed many times at hotels with (what I'd consider to be) nice lobbies and pleasant service. Small rooms? Sure, I've had them but they usually have character and often the hotels are in wonderful, central locations so a small room is a fair trade-off. <BR> <BR>What is "substandard", I think, is often in the eye of the beholder.

I'm planning my first trip to Europe and hearing and seeing how not great hotels are in Italy. I don't need a posh suite, but I think it also depends on the season. I'm going in December, so I can't lie around on the beach, so if the weather sucks or everything is closed, I want to be comfortable in my hotel room.

gee capo amybe the ice cold date you brought to europe was that way because of your attitude- 2 sides to every story

But have you ever had a hotel in America that had a view of the Eiffle Tower (or the Colloseum, Acropolis, or "fill in the blank")?

<BR> <BR>Well, my economics teachers drove into my thick skull that market drives price. The 'market' necessarily has to consist of a huge population of buyers, not just one or two people. So, what I consider a fair price has to take into account general market conditions, and not just my personal feelings. What's 'good value' for London would be overpriced in Paris, and so forth. And of course, both of these cities have very different market conditions from, I dunno, Teaneck, New Jersey. : - ) <BR> <BR>I take your point about poor soundproofing, although I'm the kind of person who would wake up to a mosquito walking on the roof. However, bear in mind that retrofitting old buildings would be very expensive, and might even damage the building's character. The buildings that house hotels often were not designed to be hotels, and thus are very difficult and expensive to renovate and maintain. I shudder to think how expensive it is to run a hotel in Venice, where every nut and bolt must be brought in by boat. <BR> <BR>If the hotel is catering to the tourist market, it may not bother with things that are more important to the business community. As a tourist, the last thing I need after walking all day is more exercise equipment. : - ) I certainly don't want to pay more for it! <BR> <BR>Some of your comments are a bit contradictory. If you are already bothered by loud TVs, the last thing you want is for these to be increased in size. Anything that discourages people from using them is fine by me! <BR> <BR>Yes, the rooms are smaller, but we're dealing with an area with much higher population densities, and hence much higher demand relative to the supply of space. I've never been to Japan, but my guess is that those rooms would be really small. <BR> <BR>I've stayed in all kinds of European hotels. I do agree that sometimes the Accor chain hotels (Novotel, Mercure, Ibis, etc.), while cookie-cutter, are nice for a change, given the level of comfort to price. And if you have kids, I think you'll find that these hotels often have the things that you're looking for in the way of pools, etc. <BR> <BR>My old teachers would summarize the whole issue by saying the market sets the standard, so if a hotel were truly substandard for the market it serves, it would go out of business.

The ice machine really cracked me up. Don't you know that most Europeans don't fill their drinks with ice cubes to the brim? That's so typically American! <BR>In a way, your complaint is like Italians/French comnplaining about not having a bidet in their US hotel rooms and bemoaning the lack of the most basic bathroom fixture.

If Europeans could figure out a way to have bidets dispense ice, and Americans could figure out a way for ice machines to double as personal hygiene devices, then maybe everyone would be happy. :^)

I would agree that most of your observations about European hotels are generally true of hotels located in older buildings in the central city. However, as others have said, if you want American-style hotel amenities, they are readily available in chain hotels in any large European city. On my first few trips to Paris, I opted for the small, "charming" Parisian hotel. After getting enough of the tiny rooms, paper-thin walls, and lack of American-style showers, I retreated to the Hilton where I've happily stayed on subsequent trips. Its just a matter of personal preference.

Frankly I disagree with Ugly and I have news for you : lately I have found that many hotels in the US are not properly cleaned, even one 5 stars in which we stayed. This has been a terribly set back for me.

Capo, you are a scream. Build a better mousetrap...er, bidet...and the world will beat a path to your door. <BR> <BR>Kate, if you can find a hotel in New Orleans that doesn't have roaches, let us know. <BR> <BR>Standards, like value, vary from person to person. The average European hotel room is not like the average American hotel room, and for that I am very thankful. Whatever happened to that Favorite European BAthroom thread???? <BR>

This is exactly why I love Ireland so much-ok, just one of the reasons.... <BR>We have always stayed at B&B's in Ireland and none has ever been sub-standard. Granted, some are fancier than others but not-substandard-and that is after 6 trips there! <BR>This summer we traveled to Ireland with 8 friends so I was really picky on the B&B's. For $25 a night (each) we got beautiful, large homes with nice sized rooms and private bath's. We looked out at the ocean or beautiful fields or a stream and one night a castle! We woke to lovely full breakfasts starting with cereal and fresh breads and then eggs, bacon, etc. the whole nine yards. <BR>We came and went as we pleased and the rooms were spotless!! All for $25 each! <BR>We paid double that in London with no breakfast and not quite double in Paris. But, I really have no complaints there either-London is just more expensive. Our hotel in Paris had lots of charm and we were all very comfortable there as well. I just find Ireland to be such a bargain. <BR>Shadow

I found that European hotels that pop up on each website AND HAVE INFO IN ENGLISH are frequently not as nice as some of the less "publicized" inns/pensiones/etc. <BR>And Capo, you're right!What other combinations could you think off? The bidet with the ice would be great, particularly considering that many posters said that they cooled off their drinks and hot feet in the bidets.

Ingrid, how about a combination waterbed/swimming pool? It would be good for keeping up with your breaststroke while on vacation. :~)

Usually I don't respond to this type of post but this time i just have to let fly. Don't you get it Ugly American? You haven't "travelled" to Europe eight times -- you've imposed yourself on Europe eight times. <BR> <BR>If you can't stand European hotel standards and don't view them as part of the experience why don't you just stay home. Or better yet -- travel to Las Vegas. Last time I checked you could see the Eiffel Tower, the Grand Canal, the Italian Lake District and a Castle or two. Plus!! you can get ice in your drinks, while watching a big screen TV, inside your climate controlled room!!!!!! <BR> <BR>NOW THAT'S TRAVELLING! <BR> <BR>And you wonder why the rest of the world calls you and Ugly American?

No, Capo, the idea of a waterbed/pool combination isn't quite reight. Remember, it has to be something to make both Europeans AND Americans happy. What I hate about American hotel beds is fighting with the tucked-in top sheet and the blanket; either everything is sliding around an dyou lose the sheet and the yucky blanket covers your face or you're trapped under your sheet. So, can you come up with a combination of duvet covers and say, the iron that Ugly misses? Maybe wrap teh iron in a duvet cover and throw it through the paper-thin walls if the neighbors are making love too loud.

How can something be "generally substandard"? That's an oxymoron, no?

I agree that usually you get more for your money with hotel and motel rooms in the states. I must say that my friends in several European countries agree. Many of them have told me that they are amazed at the amenities and the size of the rooms in the states. However, I don't think it is a "big deal" to most Americans traveling in Europe.

I'm not sure I agree with this. While overall, American hotel rooms are larger, many of them are alongside highways where space isn't a problem. On the way back from Austria this summer, we stopped overnight at a new autobahn hotel near Ulm, Germany, with rooms that easily met U.S. standards--except for the ice machine. But I don't put ice in German beer, so it wasn't a problem. <BR>What's more, price/value for hotels in European capitals like Paris are better than for hotels in a big U.S. city like NY. I know of numerous small, centrally located hotels in Paris that offer comfortable, clean rooms with cable TV, private baths, in-room safes, etc., plus helpful, well-informed staff, for about $75 a night. What kind of hotel room and staff do you get in NYC or SF for $75 a night? <BR>About three weeks ago, I spent several days in Franconia, staying in a village hotel about 30 minutes from Nuremberg. I had a large, very modern, private room and bath, in a beautifully restored 18th century building with excellent service plus a full breakfast. The room had data ports for computers and international cable television. It cost $28 a night. <BR>As for $400 a night getting you nothing, what absurd rubbish. In the U.S., we stayed at the NY Marriott East Side for $149, and got quite a bit. In May, we were at the Hotel Meurice in Paris and $400 a night got you a large, beautiful room overlooking the Tuileries. The room had twice daily maid service, a huge marble bath with separate tub and shower, big closets, a full size TV equipped with Web TV for web surfing and email, outstanding food in the hotel restaurant, all the service you could hope for, and more. True, there was no iron in the room. But when I pay $400 a night for a room in Paris, I don't plan to hang around ironing my own clothes. <BR>BTilke (Brussels) <BR>

<BR>Hi again <BR> <BR>I forgot to make the point also in my last post that many centrally-located hotels in European cities are likely to be early nineteenth and pre-nineteenth century buildings, erected at a time when people made do with a lot less space than they do now. Many of the buildings probably won't even have started out life as hotels in the first place. <BR> <BR>Many US cities, meanwhile, are a lot younger, and their central hotel industries will have developed in the shadow of the industrial revolution and its aftermath catering to a burgeoning new class of business people and travellers, all more demanding than their predecessors in terms of the amenities they expect. While space has always been at a premum in Europe's major cities - and indeed has been since the Middle Ages - there hasn't been as much of a restriction in the US. More modern European hotels, built as the hotel chain industry developed, are likely to have bigger rooms, but probably still not as big as their American counterparts. <BR> <BR>It's of course difficult to generalise, but I quite like this theory. Perhaps the American desire for big rooms has something to do with all the space that you guys have always been used to and taken for granted as your right ever since you looked westwards across the prairies. So according to this argument smaller rooms in Europe aren't proof of lower standards, simply a long-standing cultural difference. We've never been used to having a great deal of room here, so we don't demand it as a key part of the deal from our hotels. <BR> <BR>Just an observation. <BR> <BR>Kate - London

I have to agree with Ugly American...when you compare European and American hotels in the same price range, you come up short in Europe. Labor Day weekend I stayed in an Embassy Suites in Atlanta (actually Dunwoody by the Perimeter Mall) for $99/night. It had all the usual Embassy Suites bells and whistles (pool, gym, Manager's reception with free booze). To get this in Europe (or even something close to it) would cost me at least $250/night. <BR> <BR>The amenities that are considered "standard" in the US are luxuries in Europe. Think about it, even our low end hotel chains (ie, Motel6, Days Inn, Drive Inn, Come on Inns) have ice machines, pools, and gyms. But we just learn to "deal with it" while we're in Europe.