Europe:: 7 weeks HELP ! ! !
 

Here it goes! The b/f (26) and I (22) have been planning our "someday" trip to Europe for the past few years. Our "maybe" trip for the last few months. We've booked our flights yesterday so now it's official ! ! ! WOOO HOOO ! !

apologies, I had to get that out of the way. on to the serious stuff.

Flight:: Booked open-jaw tickets with AA for March 23,2011-May 11,2011. we'll be landing in Heathrow and flying out of Madrid. (49 days)

Budget: $5000/pp not including flights and possible rail passes(if we need it)

Lodging: looking for low budget hotels around 70-80 Euros/night

Likes:: food, architecure, history, art, mixing with locals and other travelers. we're not very discriminating. =D

Dislikes:: ghost tours. (no joke, I've actually had many people suggest that) too much nightlife. we're not boring but not so big on the discos anymore. we'll probably go out once or twice but the premise of our trip is on a more intellectual level.

Locations and time frames:
England
London:: 7 days with 1 daytrip to Stonehenge, Bath, and Salisbury. (i think we'll be doing it with a tour. i found one for $118/person) ----would like to find an apartment

France
Paris:: 7 days with 1 daytrip to Versailles. (Best way to do that? Guided tour or Self guide?)----would like to find apartment for Paris as well

Albi (Languedoc region):: 1 day maybe 2. Just for the day to see St. Cecelia Cathedral. (must see) Would consider staying longer if anyone thinks there are interesting things to do.

Nice (French Riviera):: 2 days not sure what to do here. taking suggestions

Italy
Venice:: 4 days

Tuscany:: 4 days

Cinque Terre:: 3 days

Rome:: 7 days (April 20-April27)

Spain
Seville:: 3 days

Granada:: 3 days

Barcelona:: 4 days

Madrid:: 5 days >>>> fly out of Madrid

...... Or something like that. Looking for all suggestion, please be honest but kind. If i'm over reaching please let me know. I'd really like to stay on budget as much as possible but i do know that i might be overreaching.

I have a friend who has a house in Rota she's generously offered to me. might do that if we run out of money =D I'd also like to go to Fatima,Portugal but not sure of the transportation there as i'd like it to be just a daytrip. car maybe?

The only things I know for sure right now are my flight schedules and that I will be in Rome April 20-April 27 for Easter (again, yes crazy I know) I have an apartment in mind just need to double check on the neighborhood. thanks so much in advance. i really need all the help i can get.

I like it = )

Versailles - they have good audio guides is what I remember from when I went. My opinion about guided tours is always that I can't afford them, so I'd rather do the audio guides.

I will leave it to people more knowledgeable than myself to get in depth on the rest.

I think it sounds great. And like a well paced trip. Myself I don't plan any more than the flights, and city itinerary, and book lodgings in advance. I figure out everything else once I'm there. I'd use your itinerary as stated and start researching hotels. Some places (like Venice) the price you stated is going to be kind of difficult to find.

For things like an apartment in Paris, just read on this forum. There's all the information you need already gathered.

Hi KayDoll ,
Congratulations! Sounds like a great trip. Apartment rentals are a great way to stay on budget regarding meals and you don't have to spend a fortune on them. It's fun to shop in the local markets for groceries to prepare your meals.

We spent on average $53 (not euros) per day for the both of us for our 97 day trip by cooking in and having picnics for lunches. It can be done. Trust me I did it. And that was when the exchange rate was 1:1.49

We spent just over $100 a night on rooms by staying mainly at B&Bs and apts.

In Paris http://www.parisbestlodge.com/ Thierry is very reliable and has a good assortment of apts. Highly recommended on this site.

We stayed in Vernazza at the Albergo Barbara for 50euros a night. Again, a few stairs but nice. You need to reserve them as soon as they allow because they book up very fast.

We stayed here http://www.parisaddress.com/paris-ap...ntal/home.html in the LOPHI 1 apt. It is on the sixth floor but we absolutely loved it. $1000 for the week.

In Tuscany check out http://www.ilgiardinosegretopienza.it/ Really inexpensive but recommended on this site.

Have fun planning,
Michele

I think you need to review your budget. $5,000 pp is only $102 per day, based on 49 days. That's really not enough for lodging, sightseeing, food and any misc expenses. For instance, the Bath, etc. sightseeing tour will put you over budget for that day; Versailles is about E25 ($32) for the complete ticket. Adding on lodging, food, transportation will be more than your budget allows. Paris, London, Venice, and Rome are expensive cities. You should really double your budget (or, at a minimum, add 50% more) for a 7 week trip.

Get copies of Let's Go guidebooks from your library for budget restaurant and lodging recommendations. You might try hostels as some have private rooms.

You can get to Versailles using public transportation - metro and RER - it's very easy. There are audio guides at the chateau.

Start with vrbo.com for apartment rentals. There are many more agencies for apartments in London and Paris; do a search here to find threads with recommendations.

Renting a car for a day to go to Fatima will not be within your budget and one-day car rentals are quite expensive. From experience I can tell you that Fatima is not worth going out of your way to see. Save this for when you visit Portugal in the future.

Is that right, $5000 for 49 days? That's $100 a day, am I correct?

I'm not saying that you can't do it, but I want to see how. And if you do, more power to you!

We came in at just under $20,000 for 97 days for two people, excluding airfare (used FF miles), trains (we did a lease car), and souvenirs (too much!).

It can be done but you will have to work hard to stay within budget as adrienne states above. Doing your research ahead of time will help tremendously. I did, and we actually came home with an extra $700...not much, but better than going over.

Don't forget to plan some $$$ for unexpected things. Laundry, city transportation passes, shipping things home, antibiotics (don't ask) etc. Allow yourself a little wiggle room and you'll have a more enjoyable trip.

I usually am a little frightened to read some of the itineraries for a long trip - they're most often WAY too ambitous trying to fit in too much in the timeframe.

I was pleasantly surprised to see your trip plans - it is a good pace to good acquainted with each area.

My experience lies mainly with Spain - the one "tweak" I would make is to add a day to Sevilla. If you need to take a day from Granada this is what I'd do. Granada is easily seen in 2 days but I'd prefer to stay 4 nights in Sevilla affording you the time for a daytrip to Cordoba.

What the heck am I doing wrong??? I am over twice your age and work full-time at a very good salary... I would love to spend 7 weeks in Europe.

How are you swinging this? A serious question cuz I'm jealous!

Happy travels!

We just returned from London and took a day trip by bus to Bath, Stonehenge and Salisbury. The price was about the same as you quoted and included audio guides at Bath and Stonehenge. I thought we were rushed at all three stops and would have liked to have had more time to explore Salisbury and Bath. I would suggest choosing one of the places and spending the whole day.
We also visited Versailles and were able to tour the gardens and place in an afternoon.

hehe first off, thanks everyone for a great start!!! So no one thinks that my itinerary is too ambitious?! I'm personally a little afraid! This trip has been 5 years in the making and that's what we've managed to save. We do have a little money set aside for emergencies but as we are too planning a wedding we're hoping not to have to tap into it. (he let me pick big expensive wedding or small cheap wedding with trip to Europe. I think i made a good decision =oD ) Soo...onward...I went into it knowing that it wouldn't be a luxurious trip and that's quite fine with me. and for::

JOANNYC:: i work for a family company so that's the only reason i managed to get so much time off. you have to take advantage sometimes! =P

so my biggest problems thus far are:

transportation. best way to get around affordably(buses, rail passes, flights (i think i may need just one)It's kind of difficult since we have to be in Rome at a specific time or i would've taken another route. which leads me to my next question.....

Is there a better way to set up the itinerary? best route to save time and money? again with the asking too much. =D

RAILPASSES:: are they worth it? i know you have to buy the pass and then you have to pay to reserve seats and then if you go overnight thats as much as a hotel rate. thoughts and advice on this?? and lastly...

Would you suggest I base myself at any of these locations and make daytrips and just cut out some of my other locations? would it be cheaper????

Budget, budget, budget is being drilled into this post i know. my apologies. but i know you all are better at this than i am so i'm hoping you can help me work some magic. =D many thanks again!!!!!

The less you move around the less expensive it will be as it costs money to go from one location to another. But you have booked your flight to leave from Madrid so that's locked in unless you pay money to change it.

Normally it's less expensive to buy point-to-point tickets rather than rail passes. Trains are fairly inexpensive in Italy. In France you can take advantage of advanced purchase of 90 days. Do a search on sncf or French trains to see info others have posted. There's also a site that compares the cost of rail passes with point-to-point tickets (can't remember the URL). Do a search on rail passes to find it. Also take a look at seat61.com (I think) for more train info.

I don't see any place where you could make a day trip other than the ones you've mentioned.

Where in Tuscany are you planning to go? Most of Tuscany requires a car. You can easily take day trips to Siena, Lucca, and Pisa from Florence.

Budget - as I suggested - get yourself Let's Go books from the library. No need to buy guidebooks right now but you should read what is offered from your library.

Italy and France - it's much less expensive if you buy a coffee/panini, etc. and eat it standing up at the bar. Seating inside is more expensive and seating outside is the most expensive. You can save lots of money by buying lunch from a vendor or a take out place and going to a park to eat it.

Refill your water bottles from the tap rather than buying water. In Rome the fountains supply spring water; refill your water bottles from the fountains.

Don't eat in restaurants near famous sights as the menus will be pricey. Walk a few blocks away to find more reasonably priced restaurants.

The Rick Steves site has ipod downloads that you can use (I think they're free) instead of getting audio guides on site.

These are just a few suggestions for staying within budget. Practice saving money at home, in small ways, before you go and you'll be used to living on a budget.

So far I've picked up a fodors Rome, Italy, and France gb. Rick steves through the back door and let's go western Europe. All were from library except the last. It's a little sad though because As I was searching for accommodations the ones suggested as budget in most of the gb have gone way up in price!!

What does everyone think about price betting on price line? Any success stories?

And thank you vAlery159. Checking them out now

I did the math, too, and don't understand how you are going to make do on $100 a day in Western Europe. I would easily need twice that, even for a fairly basic trip.

$5,000 per person x 2 people = $10,000 / 49 days = $204.08 per day

Well, everyone has their own travel style, and many people (me included) wouldn't call a $ 200 per person and day trip "fairly basic". My experience is that it's perfectly possible to travel - in Italy or in France - for 100 Euros per person and day, air and train tickets excluded. 100 Euros is of course considerably more than 100 Dollars, but far less than 200 Dollars... So, KayDoll, you'd travel more comfortably if you'd try to stick to your budget, yes, but be prepared to exceed the budget and use everything you have for this trip; I for one would prefer to have a great trip to remember for your whole life and postpone the wedding for one or two years, instead of sticking to a wedding date, and always remember this (honeymoon?) trip for its tight budget and consequently missed opportunities ("there was that beautiful, enticing restaurant where we'd have loved to dine, but instead, we ended up having a Big Mac").

As far as pace, I, too, think you did a good job as the travel planner. There are just two points that make me wonder:
1. if you don't know what to do in Nice, why do you want to go there? Nice is a fairly pretty town, but certainly nothing great, and with no particularly impressive sights; the places of scenic or historic interest in the surroundings would be difficult to reach without a car, I think (but wait for others who know more on public transport than I do); the coastal towns that are easy to get to are not worth your time IMO (Cannes, Monaco). Since you are interested in the cathedral of Albi, and since you're going a long way south-west to see it, perhaps you'd better go to Toulouse the next day? I bet you'd like St-Sernin, which is one of the best Romanesque churches ever built anywhere; and the rest of town is interesting, too. On the third day, you could make a daytrip to Moissac (an ugly town, but an abbey with the very best Romanesque sculpture all over France, terrific) and Montauban, the model town of all bastides (fortified villages in south western France).
2. Your Italian itinerary is not given in chronological order, is it? Coming from France, you'd go to the Cinque Terre first, of course.

I think you can do it on $5000 since that doesn't include airfare. It will be tight.

You do not need a tour to Versailles. Just hop on the train to Versailles. You will have not problem finding it.

Remember when the money is tight - there is always McDonalds. We do eat there a few times as it is cheaper. You can have a Southern Style Chicken sandwich, fries or salad, milk and even some McD has beer.

In Venice we have stayed at Bed and Breakfast Venezia which is about 20 minutes walking distance from St Marks Square. The rate is 80 Euro per night but you can always ask for a cheaper rate for 4 nights.

http://www.bbvenezia.com/ It has excellent reviews on tripadvisor

We love it there, love the neighborhood and the little park it is by. There are benches along the canal where you can watch the boats go by and the sun set. There is a small restaurant close by and the food was very good and also a small neighborhood pizza place a block or two away. Very good pizza.

As far as rail passes, it's simply a math equasion. You need to figure out exactly the trips you will be taking (as best as you can determine), price out the 2nd class point-to-point tickets, and compare them to various pass options. Rick Steves is helpful for this.

As far as your itinerary, yes for ME personally it's way too ambitious and I would cut a couple of the things that least interest you. For example when you say "French Riviera" and "Not sure what to do here?", well I'd probably eliminate that and add the days to a destination where you have particular interests.

Moving around if the LEAST interesting part of a trip to me, so I like to minimize that, and maximize the time spent in each place. I also think your money goes further, the less you hop around.

I think $102 per day would be too tight if you were 1 person alone, for $204 for a couple (sharing a room), I believe is do-able.

This looks great, except for one thing that stands out to me: Albi seems completely off your planned path. (It would make more sense if you were then moving to Spain before Italy.) If you're moving from France to Italy and already have Nice on your list, the logical places to add those two days would be to Provence or the Nice Hinterlands instead.

I think your decision to trade a smaller wedding for the trip is brilliant! Happy Planning!

"<i>What does everyone think about price betting on price line? Any success stories?</i>"

Priceline is fabulous for London. And since, generally, London hotels cost more for the same quality than places like Paris-- using PL in London saves you a bundle. Another huge money saver in London is that almost all the museums/galleries are free. So even if the accommodations cost a little more - the day's expenses can be lower than places where each museum/site is expensive.

I would NOT do a commercial coach tour to Bath/Stonehenge/Salisbury. That will cost you a LOT of ££ and be really rushed. Pick either Bath or Stonehenge/Salisbury and do the day trip on your own by public transport. OR another option - if you arrive at LHR, you can take an express coach from the airport to Bath see the city and stay one night. The next afternoon take the train to London and spend the rest of your UK time there.

PL isn't so good for Paris because the zones are drawn so each one has hotels that are too far out. But there are budget apartments in Paris that would be almost as cheap as PL anyway. Check out homelidays and vrbo sites to find flats that are a little bit cheaper because they are by owner and have no/lower agency fees.

I like your plan -- but the extra moving will add a bit to your costs. So if there are any regions you are OK dropping -- it will go a long way to stretching your funds. Maybe Albi and the Riveria for instance. That way you could book acheap flight from Paris to Italy.

hehe i feel like a fodors addict =D so a couple of things i am considering are dropping not going to albi from paris but instead going there from barcelona? would that make better sense? and then...renting an apartment somewhere in Tuscany and doing daytrips from there in lieu of going to french riviera. are there a lot of buses that i can access to such places as pisa, volterra and san gi?

>>>>> on a side note i'm booking the apartment for Rome from dailyflats.com and managed to get a decent price for easter week. will be near the colosseum area. VERY EXCITED since it has been franco approved =D

p.s. thank you janisj for the heathrow to bath advice. i think i will do that since my flight comes in early the 24th. and then do stonehenge/salisbury together another day.

Franco approved ---> LOL!

Distance wise yes, Albi form Barcelona makes sense. But at the moment your itinerary is very confusing because it is not geographically making sense. So:

London

Paris

Italy

Spain

(throw in Albi here)

And fly out of Madrid

Is that correct?

If Sam's interpretation is correct, perhaps you could either sacrifice Albi, or change your flight to leave from Toulouse. I like Janis' idea of flying directly from Paris to Italy and skpping the rest of France this trip. It seems awkward to tack on that jog up to the northern Languedoc region at the end just for one little town. If you must fly out of Madrid, it makes no sense at all. Truly, you have enough good stuff on your plate and it is otherwise rather nicely arranged.

Tell yourself that you'll spend one of your future anniversaries in the Languedoc/Lot/Dordogne region of France when you can do the area more justice.

Just to clarify; is your budget $5000 per person on $5000 total?

<<Budget: $5000/pp not including flights and possible rail passes(if we need it)>>

pp = Per Person

As per railpasses the one i would look at seriously is the Eurail Select Saverpass for 3 countries - France, Italy and Spain - you buy between 5 and ten days of travel to be used at your choice as you go along within a 2-month period - a so-called 'Flexipass'. Use them for your long train rides but once in a city use local transports or buy regular tickets for short treks like out to Versailles, etc. A Saverpass is for two or more names on one pass and is thus about 20% cheaper than buying two individual passes.

Keep in mind the Eurail pass if you are over 25 years old is first-class and IMO first class has HUGE benefits over 2nd class - so when comparing fares vs pass the cheapest fares are in 2nd class - 1st class after my several decades of incessant European train riding is well well worth it.

For loads of info on planning such a rail trip i always highlight these wonderful sites - www.ricksteves.com (also gives info on budget airlines in case you want to fly from one end of Europee to the other cheaply); www.seat61.com (this one excellent on train make up and types of trains); www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download the latter's superb IMO European Planning & Rail Guide for suggested itineraries, rail maps, etc. And for schedules i always use www.bahn.de - the German Railways site that has the easiest to use for me schedule info for all of Europe.

First of all, please: stop trying to talk KayDoll out of their least "standard" destination. This is NOT franco approved! ;) Albi is great, Toulouse is great, Moissac is even greater. They want to see Albi. It's reasonable, doable, not rushed. It's their trip. And going to non-standard destinations always deserves endorsement, not objection, ok?

KayDoll, combining Albi/Toulouse with Barcelona is a good idea IMO. As far as I see it, you are leaving Paris on April 5th... While janisj's idea of booking a cheap flight from Paris to Italy is certainly a good one, I don't manage to combine this idea with your Rome apartment dates (which I suppose you won't want to change, and justly so). So what I would suggest is: Paris - Toulouse/Albi/Moissac/Montauban (I leave it to you to check transport options, but a fast train to Toulouse should be easy to find from Paris), 3 days in that area. On the 8th, move on to Barcelona. On the 12th, two options for moving on: either take the ferry Barcelona - Genova (I don't know it first-hand, but a long time Fodorite has often recommended this ferry as convenient and cheap), proceed to the Cinque Terre; or take a cheap flight to Pisa (Vueling is offering such flights), and proceed to the Cinque Terre, as well, where you'll stay three days; in the morning of the 15th, go to your (still to be determined) rural Tuscan rental, for 5 days now (there's still one day left from skipping Nice); 20th to 27th, Rome; on the 27th, train to Venice; on the 1st, take a cheap flight to Sevilla or Granada (plenty of such flights available); 3 days in each town, so you arrive in Madrid on the 6th, just as in your original plan. If you want to check cheap flights, please go to www.whichbudget.com

the trip to st. cecilia is a personal choice. she is my patron saint so i'd very much like to pay homage even if it is out of the way. should i consider spending a few days in that area after paris and flying from there to italy??

unfortunately, i cannot change my flight as i booked it non refundable. (the route seemed so much better in my head) and it's what i got for the best price ($590 open jaw r/t)

soo....would this make more sense geographically and transport wise?

fly into heathrow and take transportation to
-Bath (1 night)bus from
-Bath to London (7 nights) take chunnel to
-London to Paris (7 nights) train to
-Paris to Albi/Languedoc region (3 nights) fly to

(please let me know what makes most sense in this region)

-Venice (3 days) train to
-Cinque Terre (3 days)train to
-Tuscany region (5 days)::stay in Florence with 1 daytrip to volterre???::: train to
-Rome (7 days) over easter :: fly to
-Seville (4 days) train to
-Granada (2 days)train
-Barcelona (4 days)train
-Madrid (3 days)fly home =(

don't know it that works better. i don't really want to cut anything else out though.

KayDoll, this way, you wouldn't arrive in Rome in time for your reservation. I think the order of places I outlined one post above yours would work better.

KayDoll, let's do this again with dates:

March 23 - London to Bath
March 24 - London
March 30 - Paris
April 5 - Albi
April 8 - Venice
April 11 - Cinque Terre
April 14 - Tuscany
April 19 - Rome
April 26 - Sevilla
April 30 - Granada
May 2 - Barcelona
May 6 - Madrid
May 9 - go home.

Clearly there is something wrong... = /

In terms of geography, it MIGHT be easier to go from Rome to Barcelona to Sevilla. I'm not too sure about if the transport will work out that way.

Indeed, sam: Barcelona is out of place in your schedule. I think I had solved it a few posts earlier... perhaps I should write it as neatly arranged as you did, so here goes, once again:

March 23 arrival, to Bath
24 to London
30 to Paris
April 5 to Albi/Toulouse area
8 to Barcelona
12 to Cinque Terre
15 to Tuscany
20 to Rome
27 to Venice
May 1st to Sevilla or Granada, depending on which flight you prefer
May 4 to Granada or Sevilla, respectively
May 7 to Madrid
May 11 fly home

Franco, I do like yours better = ) Especially since it fits the Rome dates, and I don't think that is possible any other way

That's what I think, too - and why I said, earlier on, good as janisj's idea of flying from Paris to Italy is, it just doesn't match the dates for the Rome apartment. But this way, Venice - southern Spain would be done by plane; and probably also Barcelona - Pisa (unless they choose to take that ferry that I mentioned above). Which should save some money as compared to trains.

True. I'd think the ferry would be nice in terms of the weather too.

Franco:: yes i agree. that route works much better. I plotted both of our schedules on railsaver.com and your itinerary makes much more sense however i switched venice and tuscany. i would like to spend a little more time in that region (that would not be too much out of the way will it?) so i think this will be the final itinerary::

plane gets in on 24 on march due to time change (forgot about that)

March 24: London (will do daytrip to Bath/Stonehenge)
March 31: Paris (daytrip to Versailles)
April 7: Albi/Toulouse area
April 10: Barcelona (will use ferry)
April 14: Cinque Terre
April 16: Venice
April 20: Rome
April 27: Tuscany (Should i stay in Florence? daytrip to Pisa,Volterre, and San Gi)
May 2: Seville
May 6: Granada
May 8: Madrid

return home May 11.

sounds better???

Definitely. The only question they'd have to check is how long the trip by ferry is (I have no idea, just read that it's nice and cheap). By plane, they'd arrive in Pisa in a heartbeat, and could spend the better part of that day in the Cinque Terre (convenient air schedule provided). OTOH, even if the ferry takes a few hours longer (and sure it does!), they have time for it IMO if they love to go by ferry, since 3 days for the Cinque Terre are plenty (astonishing scenery, true, but just five hamlets, each in its own valley and cove).

I'm personally someone who loves ferry travel. I really wanted to take the ferry London to paris for my own trip, but it was costing more than the Eurostar. But I took the ferry from Penzance to the Isles of Scilly and absolutely loved it. The views make the time taken totally worth it.

KayDoll, the Florence decision would be a matter of preference. Countryside or city?

Oh also, what interests you more - art and architecture (Florence) or the more relaxed countryside views of a smaller town? Also, price might be a consideration on your budget.

Ah, cross-posting, sorry - my post was meant in response to sam! Not combining Tuscany and the Cinque Terre is giving me pain, I must say - they're neighbouring each other!! I know it's me who talked you into spending 3 days around Albi, but what about making that just two; I also notice that I shortened your Paris stay, involuntarily, by one day; and we're losing one more day due to the plane arrival. Let's see:
March 24 London (with daytrip to Bath)
31 to Paris
April 7 to Toulouse, see Toulouse that day
8 see Albi and Moissac (that's perfectly possible)
9 to Barcelona
13 ferry to Genova, train to Cinque Terre
15 Tuscany - that way, you have precisely the same 5 days there that you have in your last example, but in a geographically more sound order (hence more time-effective, too, and you'll spend some more hours in Tuscany, that way)
20 to Rome
27 to Venice
May 1st to Sevilla
5 to Granada
7 or 8 to Madrid (depending on where you'd rather spend that extra-day)