charged for damage to carpet - input requested
 

This was the first time anything like this has happened to me in 20 years of travel, and I'd like input from Fodor users. We stayed in a highly recommended 2star hotel in Paris. It was what I expected from a two star hotel and loved the location. I changed my trip plans when this hotel had only 4 nights available instead of 5. All was well until checkout.

My friend had been ironing and the travel iron fell over, leaving a scorch mark on the carpet. Nothing was said for three days until checkout and then the son/manger and owner/father (who only spoke French) were there for our checkout along with the normal staff we had seen during our stay.

The manager met us at the desk and announced we had damaged the carpet and proposed that he write an invoice that I take back to the states with me to submit on my travel insurance or my insurance at home for replacement of the carpet in the room. I was shocked. My response was a firm "no". Father and son were upset when my answer was no. They conferred in French and then the son went on and on about how nice this family run hotel is and they are used to guests that take care of the rooms. I was offended, but tried to stay calm.

He went on and on about how expensive it would be to replace the carpet and the busines they would lose during the installation and I suppose the build-up was more from French culture. I repeatedly asked "how much" and he continued on with how much they are losing as a small family owned business. I clarified that it was a BUSINESS. He told me that ironing in the room was "against the rules" but they usually don't say anything because their guests usually take care of the rooms. Later, he showed me a laminated card in French, German and English and planned to show me the no-ironing rule and was very embarrassed as his finger scrolled down the list and he read aloud the rules NOT to be able to find anything on the card about no ironing. (He brought this card of rules out of the back office to show me). In embarrassment, he pointed out "customers responsible for damage" line and I asked again "How much".

The full breakfast room (of Americans) were able to hear the exchange, and I could tell by the looks on their faces, they were as shocked as I. I have been in many a hotel room with iron marks on the carpet and it never occured to me that the hotel would ask the guest to pay for a full or partial replacement of the carpet. This guy's story was that the scorch mark was so offensive that they would not be able to rent the room again until new carpet was installed. The silent reactions by the other guests must have been what made father and son shift their approach.

After several minutes of no progress and escalation on both sides, I backed out of the conversation. (The son was in the midst of telling me that he was an honorable man and I may not know what honor is but he did). My friend stepped in and asked "How much". He tried to start up the same story again and was continually asked "How much". Eventually he offered up $100 Euro (he had laughed at my proposal of $50 Euro a few minutes earlier). We were given a receipt that included a line item for "damage to carpet" for 5o Euro.

Evidently the owners/managers had been fuming about the scorch for three days and didn't say anything until check-out - we were blindsided by their approach. I tried not to fume for the next three days of my long-anticipated vacation.

I would much appreciate any input from others. Nothing like this has ever happened to me and I just want to know if it is usual/ normal and what/how others would have responded.

We were careful not to present ourselves as "ugly Americans" throughout the trip and this was the only negative experience in a fabulous 10 day trip through Paris, Provence and Cannes.

Just saw my typo. The receipt was "damage to carpet" at $100 Euro.

That sounds pretty horrible. If you had charged the expense, I wonder if you could now call the credit card company to dispute the charge? And how could they have proved that you damaged the carpet? Do they photograph each room after each guest's departure?

Just how bad was the damage?

Hi gracie,

>My friend had been ironing and the travel iron fell over, leaving a scorch mark on the carpet. <

I don't understand why you are upset that the hotel wanted you to pay for the damage.

If you had left a scratch on a rental car you would have been charged.

If you had broken a piece of pottery the shop would have charged you for it.

Just how long did that travel iron sit on the carpet in order to leave a scorch mark.

I agree with Ira. The owner seemed excessive in his dealings with you, but if you caused damage to his room, you should be responsible for it.

gracie, you asked for input...

Perhaps, had you volunteered with this information when the accident happened, you would have been spared the embarrassment and the confrontation. Would I have done that? Probably not.

BTW, were you planning to pay the bill and quickly leave, thereby getting away with it? Would you not have had pangs of guilt? I would have.

I was not upset that the hotel wanted to charge for damage to the carpet (although I was suprised). I was upset that they he wanted me to pay for an entire room of carpet, that was definetely not new carpet by any stretch of the imagination.

I admitted that there was a scorch mark on the carpet left by a travel iron and offered to pay 50 Euros for the damage. That offer was laughed off and then the escalation began.

The scorch mark was made by a travel iron that fell over as the article of clothing was being adjusted. In 20 years of business and lesiure travel, I have seen many similar iron marks on hotel room carpets. My question to others on the board is basically "has anyone ever had a similar situation and/or know of anyone that has been asked to replace a full room of carpet for a scorch mark left by a travel iron"

Well, whether the charge seems reasonable depends on how bad the damage was, no? If you had broken a glass in a restaurant, would the restaurant make you pay? I think that there would be many cases in which the restaurant wouldn't care.

This isn't quite the same thing, but once I spilled a glass of water on someone dining next to me. I offered to pay for dry-cleaning costs, and the person shrugged and said "It's only water; it will dry out."

I don't agree that gracieb is necessarily expected to pay, or to pay 100 Euros. Maybe she could have gone out to buy a new carpet for less than 100 Euros.

Hi gracieb, how big was the scorch mark? An inch by an inch? Five inches by five inches? And how big was the carpet that you were asked to replace?

Tuck,
Thanks for your input. As we arrived back to the hotel the night before our departure, we were asked when we were leaving the next day. We responded that we were going to go out to buy last minute gifts at 9 and would return to check out and take a cab to the Gare at 10. In retrospect, it was an unusual question but I thought they had incoming guests arriving early. Now, I know they wanted to know the time so the manager and owner could be there. We were not by any stretch of the imagination trying to slip out of the room or any responsibility.

Early in the conversation I offered to pay $50 Euros for the scorch mark. I was not happy with his proposal for me to take an invoice back home for replacement of the carpet of the whole room. A compromise of sorts was reached at 100 Euros, but I'm still not sure how I feel about that.

Thanks for your input too, Ira. Fortuntely, in renting rental cars for business almost every week for many years I've never been charged for a scratch. I've never broken anything in a shop so I've never faced that either. I'm a member of every hotel frequent stay program and am at the highest level of my favorite group of hotels. I wanted to stay in a French hotel in Paris to experience more of a French environment rather than an American room and ambiance.

I'd have to think that if I damaged something, I'd feel obligated to cover the costs to make it right.

The carpet may have not been new, but the one that has to replace it will be and will cost accordingly. I have no idea how much a room of replacement carpet and installation would cost there. It's not the easiest thing to "fix" a carpet unless you have spare sections of it, so replacement may be the only way. If he cares about the reputation of his business, it may be important to him to not present another scarred or stained room to the next guest. I'd rent from a businessman that felt this way.

Not that his treatment was called for at all, but I wonder if he didn't feel he needed to make his case, after getting back such a firm "no", and got carried away.

Ah Gracie, you should have 'fessed up right away. You burnt it, you should have notified the front desk and offered to pay damages at that point in time. Since you said nothing the staff no doubt assumed you were planning on ingnoring the damage, and thus they called in the owners. If the staff had not called in the owners and you had gone away, the owners would have blamed the staff, perhaps firing them. Really, you should have offered to pay the day it happened. I bet in that case everything would have been different.

111op -
The scorch was the size of the face of the travel iron. The manager said the room was 16 square meters. To visulize the room, there was about a foot exposed carpeting around a double bed (and the scorch on one side of the bed). The room also had a little section with a twin bed against a wall and about a foot of exposed carpeting on one side of the bed. It was a typical small Parisian hotel room.

When I backed out of the conversation when he was very, very upset with me he shared with my friend the dimensions. So, later in the conversation we found out we were talking about 16 sq metres of carpeting at 19 Euros per metre. He was also talking about installation charges and loss of use of the room. So, in the end the carpeting would be $304 plus installation plus $130 Euro/ night for loss of use. When he proposed an invoice to submit for insurance my $500 deductible was bouncing around in my head but I had more concerns about leaving something open-ended that I would have to deal with in France from the US.

The 100 Euro compromise was much closer to my original 50 Euro offer than his original offer of a full replacement of the room carpeting. The interchange was more disturbing to me than the outcome.

You are absolutely right Curt. Things would have been different if we had handled it that way. That's why I posted this on the message board. I wanted to find out how others would have dealt with this situation.

"Nothing like this has ever happened...how others would have responded".

Would you have expected to pay for an iron scorch mark and if so how much? I suppose prior to this experience I just considered those kinds of marks normal wear and tear on hotel room carpets. You can imagine how differently I looked at bleach, cigartte burns and other marks in the hotel rooms for the remainder of the trip.

The input of you and the others in very helpful in my processing what happened. Thank you.

Thanks, gracie. I'm sympathetic, but it looks like I'm in the minority here.

Well, you know, honestly, I'm not the sort to stir trouble either. And while I was thinking about your situation, I was thinking about another situation, which is not quite the same thing. Let's say the hotel had failed to provide certain basic amenities as advertised (this happens pretty frequently too -- for example, there was a thread yesterday about a hotel in Partenkirchen that didn't have the advertised amenities). Would the guest have been entitled to some compensation? In many cases, the hotel wouldn't bother compensating the guest at all. Is that right?

Personally I stayed in a hotel in Athens where I walked into a leaking toilet the first night I was there. I didn't ask for any compensation, but you'd have think that a working toilet is a pretty basic necessity (we're not talking a hair dryer here). I was moved to a different room late next morning but I had to call a few times in the morning. I didn't make a fuss.

Just what's right? I find it pretty interesting that people's gut reaction here is more sympathetic towards the hotel owners. I happen to disagree.

Older carpet is a difficult item to "repair." IF you try to replace a section of it, it doesn't look right........ it will almost never match. The only way that it can be done right is to replace the whole thing. So if carpet isn't replaced entirely, the room doesn't look the same (or as good). I can understand the owner being upset about his damaged carpet........ Honestly don't know what's fair in this case. Sorry this happened to you at the end of your trip, gracieb.

Perhaps this is partly cultural.

My husband once walked through the plate glass door at the entrance of a 5 star hotel in Switzerland.

He was OK, thank goodness, but they would not let him check out of the hotel until they had received an estimate and payment for the damage.

This would never happen in the US. The management would be all over you with apologies, free upgrades etc.

Europeans usually feel that you are responsible for your own actions.

This only occurs in small hotels that are family owned. Large ones will be covered by their insurance, perhaps small ones are too and were trying their luck!

If they are covered by their insurance, which I'd imagine they are - if I spilt water on my computer, I'm covered. I wouldn't pay if this were the case, however, if it is not then I would pay up.

An iron is not so hot as to scorch material instantly! Unless of course the carpet was made of silk. Obviously you were careless and allowed the iron to sit there for some time in order for a scorch mark to form. I can't stand people who treat other people's possessions so poorly - have some manners!

Actually, mkingdom, if the carpet was made of synthetic material it could scorch quite quickly. (I just ruined a pair of "jungle pants" in 2 seconds when my iron was too hot.)

gracieb, what an unfortunate and unpleasant situation. Did you ever ask him whether his insurance covered it? But then I suppose he was thinking of his 500 euro deductible as well.

I'm not sure what I would have done, but I wanted to point out to you that just because these guys own the hotel does not mean that they are great at handling people. Perhaps, as others have suggested, your not bringing the accident to management's attention on your own gave them reason to start the whole exchange off on a skeptical note.

Or maybe they've had bad prior experiences with people damaging rooms and refusing to pay. Who knows? It sounds like you handled it reasonably diplomatically. Don't let it spoil the memories of your lovely trip.

Don't take it personally dear, you could've been a furry green alien and they'dve still asked for money.

The hotel should definately have claimed on their own insurance especially if there was nothing stating you could not use an iron. All service businesses have PL insurance and I am sure contents etc. Maybe it would not be covered unless his claimed over 500 etc but as a service industry this could not possibly have been the first incident to happen to them. The estimated cost of the carpet sounds correct to me and I doubt anyone would replace a patch its just not done it should be re-carpeted. I doubt he replaced it anyway.I don't think they handeled it professionally but to them it does look loike you were going to check out without telling them and this over 2-3 days could bring up some hostility on their part. I would love to know what hotel it was. I think at the ends of the day paying 100 was the easiest resolution for all concerned.

<i>&quot;Perhaps, had you volunteered with this information when the accident happened, you would have been spared the embarrassment and the confrontation.&quot;</i>

A person's true character is revealed by how they take responsibility (or not) for their actions. Had you fessed up immediately, chances are the outcome would be entirely different. I'm a firm believer in &quot;what goes around comes around.&quot; Also, in all my years of business travel I don't recall seeing many iron-burn stains on carpets.

Small boutique hotels in Europe are typically family-run businesses and issues of insurance are very different than what you find in America. I think at 100 Euro, you got quite a deal.

I once did a photo shoot in a lovely boutique hotel that had just opened near the Spanish Steps in Rome. We were doing a beauty shot with a female model and, while the model was getting her make-up done near the window by the bed, the make-up artist accidentally spilled her tin of Egyptian black, eye-shadow powder onto the brand-new peach-colored, wall-to-wall carpet. (I can hear the audible gasps from the women who have been to Africa and bought this product.)

The spill was about one square foot in circumference and the entire tin had emptied. After a moment of surveying the scope of damage, I decided to finish the shoot and deal with the carpet later. (The hotel did not know I was doing a shoot in the room.)

Because I opted to finish the shoot first, the intense black coal powder had time to settle (big mistake). I called the front desk once the model was gone and my equipment had been put away. They were gracious as could be (with serious, worried looks on their faces) and housekeeping did a terrific job trying to clean the mess up. However, the murky circle where the black powder had once been stood out like a sore thumb.

The hotel didn't ask me to replace the carpet but I insisted. This is why a location photographer pays insurance premiums. I think the bill came to $1200 and I was grateful I hadn't rented a suite.

gracieb: I cannot comment on travel in Europe (I have not done enough European travel to know) but I travel quite a bit here in the U.S. I do not think any professional American hotel would expect you to pay for accidental damage. It is part of the business cost of running a hotel. While I do not know the particular circumstances of what happened (although I have trouble believing that you saw the iron fall on the carpet and then you just sat around for awhile before picking it up!), accidents do happen. Furniture gets chipped, carpets get stained, bathroom glasses get broken, etc. Hotel rooms are not museums. Accidents do not = treating the room and the hotel with a lack of respect. It sounds to me like the owners got irrational and emotional on you and you made a generous offer. Replace worn carpeting with new carpet, at your expense??? Gee, if I were the hotel owner I would PRAY for accidents like this!!!

NYCFS, that's quite generous of you -- did you have to pay the $1200 out-of-pocket or was the entire sum picked up by insurance? Very honorable and generous if out-of-pocket, but not particularly noteworthy if the insurance picked it up. If I had an expense account, I'd go have Masa sushi at $300 a pop. I don't think that that's especially noteworthy.

Hi,

I'm really sorry this happened to you, but I think I have to agree with the others. Since the damage was done by your friend, she should have to pay to have it fixed. Carpet is very hard to repair and replacing that section of it would not look right, I'm sure. Therefore the whole carpet probably needs to be replaced.

I understand that accidents do happen, and we've all had our share of them. I agree with m_kingdom; if you were in a larger hotel owned by a company, the hotel probably would have had insurance that would have taken care of the situation. Unfortunately it wasn't. The owners could have handled the matter in a more appropriate and professional matter but your friend should be responsible for the damage she caused.

Tracy

&lt;&lt;We were not by any stretch of the imagination trying to slip out of the room or any responsibility.&gt;&gt;

WHile no one was accusing you of attempting to leave without paying your room charges, it does appear that you were not going to bring up the damage you had caused. If you were, you would have done it earlier.

It seems to me, that the owners were patient in allowing you the opportunity to bring the damage to their attention. Apparently that wasn't going to happen.

Whether they repair the carpet or not is of no consequence...you did the damage. If you damge my car, you owe for the repairs regardless of whether I get the car fixed..it has diminished in value.

As for those who think the burn mark was &quot;normal wear and tear&quot;...I have a question. What would you think if you saw a review on hotel that stated the carpet had an obvious iron burn and should be replaced? Wouldn't you think less of that hotel's standards.

111op, I didn't think my response was overly generous at all. It simply was the right thing to do given the circumstances. Even if they had brought in heavy-duty cleaners with strong bleaching agents, I felt an obvious mark would remain. The peach tone was quite rich.

I'd have to call my accountant to find out how the money was finally transacted. I'm not much for numbers and I pay someone to help me with that part of my life. But, considering the average overhead expense for professional photographers rivals a physician in private practice (and we're not talking about everyone affording a million-dollar insurance policy), trust me, in one way or another, the money comes out of my pocket. I'm self-employed so my expense account is called my wallet.

You should remove morals and conscience from business transactions. If it were a friend/family member's house then of course you should offer to pay, but if it's an hotel and they are not asking you to pay, then why bother?

Well, I guess I'm just the miserly type then, NYCFS. I don't think that I'd have paid unless I'd been asked to pay, and $1200 sounds like a lot. But presumably you get to list this as an expense in tax returns, so the actual money that comes out is less.

No, I don't necessarily advocate evading responsibility, and I like to think that I'm a pretty reasonable person (at least reasonable enough to tolerate a leaking toilet and one that wouldn't flush for a night and a morning). But I remain surprised by how sympathetic most of the people who've posted are to the hotel owners.

You say the damage was not caused by you, but by your friend. Why didn't your friend notify management or offer to compensate for the damage? Why did this become your problem?

I would love to KNOW: the PURPOSE of all this &quot;input&quot; you wanted:

A) To make you feel better

B) To exonerate you

C) To allow you to vent

OK, now you've got the input..what good, if any, has it done? And, yes, this IS a perfectly reasonable question from people you are asking for &quot;help&quot; from.

I remember an incident when I was sitting in a bar, and knocked a flute of champagne over the bar counter and behind the bar by accident, not only did the bar not care, but poured me another glass with compliments. Accidents do happen, and hoteliers should of course be prepared. I've never stayed in small family run hotels so cannot comment on their situation - it seems to appear more like one is staying in someone's home rather than an international establishment.

This all reminds me of an embarassing incident at The Plaza some twenty plus years ago, involving some very deep pile carpet and a most disgruntled chamber-maid.

<i>&quot;You should remove morals and conscience from business transactions.&quot;</i>

What a surprise.

Frankly, because I did not inform the hotel that a photo shoot would be taking place, there was no &quot;business&quot; agreement. Typically, if a photographer wants to use hotel property as a back-drop, the photographer is required to pay an additional fee (in America, that fee can start at $500 and is negotiable, usually. It can cost much more.). Then, a contract is written up and both parties sign it. The formality takes time but is there to protect everyone involved in the &quot;business&quot; activity.

Had I paid the typical &quot;location&quot; fee, I never would have offered to replace the carpet. When it comes to business, I'm not <i>that</i> nice.

Singletail,
Well, I suppose the answer is some of A, not really B, and hopefully I've not given any indication that I'm just trying to vent. I've tried very hard not to say anything one-sided or name the hotel or say or do anything to cause damage to anyone else.

I really wonder myself why I am spending more time trying to figure this out. I couldn't talk it about it on the trip - my friend said it's 100 Euros, it's over, forget about it.

I suppose I am disturbed by the manager assuming the worst and throwing out insults although he was upset. I am surprised at some of the posts assuming the worst as well and making negative references to my character, etc. That's okay. You don't know me and I've tried to present the situation as clearly as un-biased as possible.

For one thing, the feedback has been helpful to confirm that some of this is due to cultural differences, some of this is due to a small family owned hotel rather than a chain and/or American hotel. I have really appreciated the comments by Marilyn and 111op, and yes, they have made me felt better. I DID try to remain diplomatic and take responsibilty for the damage and try to find a workable compromise.

My friend is one of the most anal persons I know and would never knowingly cause damage to anyone's carpet, whether it be a private home or hotel in any part of the world. That the iron tipped over was an accident in the truest sense of the word.

I really am surprised that so many of the responses have assumed the worst of us. That feels strange - like I've come full circle and am back at the desk at the hotel.

Well, gracieb, I'd have to agree with Marilyn that you shouldn't let this spoil a beautiful trip. Talking about it does help, and maybe after this you can move on.

I noticed that you were being very diplomatic in not naming the hotel. Perhaps you could consider naming it or posting a comment on tripadvisor. Your account sounds pretty level-headed and maybe that will make people think twice before staying with them.

But anyway, as I said, I'm surprised that people are not more sympathetic, but then, well, it's an internet forum after all. I think that the internet can be a wonderful means of communication, but I also think that it's a flawed means. Occasionally people can seem more cutting and nasty than they otherwise would be in real life (and I confess that I sometimes indulge in this sort of behavior, even if it's a bit childish). So you shouldn't think too much about the 100 Euros, and you shouldn't expect much in terms of sympathy from people who don't know you anyway. What matters is that you had otherwise a lovely trip. In any case, accidents happen on any trip. I've had many unpleasant experiences on trips (well, including a leaking toilet). It can be difficult getting over them, but that's part of life.

Unless it was a malicious action that caused the damage (e.g., a rock band destroying a room), it's a normal cost of doing business. Accidents will happen. You shouldn't pay for breaking something in a store either--it should be covered by insurance. If the business chooses not to buy insurance, the customer should not have to make up for their poor business decision to self-insure.

Of course, if you are in a situation where such insurance might not be a viable option (e.g., someone just renting out a room in their house; or in a 3rd world country where insurance might not be available, etc.), the picture changes--what you would do would then depend on the particular situation.

Note that in more advanced countries the &quot;You break, you bought it&quot; scam is common. A store has insurance--but tries to browbeat the customer into paying for something they broke. Whether the customer pays for it or not, the store then proceeds to collect the insurance money.

Oops, I meant to add that, if the hotel in this case had made it clear on check-in that ironing was prohibited, then I think the customer would have a duty to try to make some sort of monetary adjustment, less any insurance the hotel might be due.

gracieb, I understand because stuff like this really bothers me, too. I have trouble letting go of it and getting it out of my mind.

I think your posts here have shown you to be a fair and rational person, and if you SHOULD have informed the hotel earlier, well, we all make mistakes that look foolish in hindsight.

And don't mind Singletail. S/he has only one side of the bed to get out of every morning, and that's the wrong side.

I am puzzled by the comments about insurance. A hotel should be insured for room damage. Why should it be your problem if a hotel chooses not to obtain proper coverage? If you are going into the hotel business, you should expect that accidental damage to rooms will occur. While we can argue about negligent or reckless behavior, this sounds like a simple accident, akin to spilling a glass of wine on the carpet. A hotel owner who does not expect incidents like this, and has not prepared to deal with them, should not be in the business. Damage from unusual and unexpected uses of a room (like a photo shoot) are one thing. The idea that a guest might use a travel iron, and that such an iron might accidentally fall onto the floor, should not come as a shock to a hotelier. I also doubt very much that the owners were giving you time to &quot;come clean.&quot; Instead, it sounds more like they were waiting for you to vacate the room and settle the bill. I think you should post the name of the hotel so it can be avoided. Whatever one's opinion of who is right, the owners' handling of the situation sounds anything but polite and discreet. Once you asked &quot;how much,&quot; they should have realized that they had won -- you were offering to pay something. Instead, they took it as an afront to their honor. I have run into contractors like this and I can tell you I never use their services again. I for one would not want stay in a place run by such unprofessional people.

gracieb,

You created a situation by;
1) An error of commission - staining the carpet.
2) An error of omission - not taking responsibility by informing the hotel.

Now, you continue the problem by trying to blame the management for not handling the situation properly.

Sorry, but I have little sympathy for you in this matter.

JoeG