I'm being indiscreet, but I surmise that the hotel has been recommended in this forum and we know that there're probably six or more floors. :-) (I'm not that curious, but it's a slow day at work.)

And French legal opinion would be interesting to hear too, I agree.

OliveOyl,
Regarding "Lastly, your insurance would cover it with NO deductible. This is a liability claim and as such is covered in full. The $500 deductible applies only to claims you make for loss to your own covered items. You clearly were negligent, you clearly are liable, so sayeth the ex claims adjuster."

I have no prior experiences with this and sincerely have no idea how this works. I do know in conversations with my insurance company and credit card company prior to departure as I tried to sort out what coverages I needed for the rental car, I was told I had no liability coverage in France for the car. At the rental counter, I asked them what that liability coverage covered and the response was damage or death to the passenger. My friend assured me there would be no problem - we are both well covered by medical and death insurance. If my auto policy does not cover liability in France, are you saying that you think my homeowners policy would cover liability coverage for a hotel room?

In any case, I did not think paying in full for the cost of replacing the whole room was my responsibility. Depreciation, etc. would come into play.

We did come to an agreement of 100 Euros and that has been paid to the hotel.

This experience has made me aware of travel insurance needs that I had not ever thought of. I want to investigate and learn more before the next trip.

Bottom line is that, if you run a hotel, things will get burnt and broken and worn and torn. People will drop irons, knock over lamps, rip draperies while tripping over their suitcases, etc. Unless it is down maliciously/on purpose, it is a normal cost of doing business, and the guest should not be expected to pay.

That is the case with auto claims gracieb, but not with homeowners claims. Most all homeowners policies include liability coverage for damage to the property of others, which would apply outside of the US as well. As with all coverages, there are limits to the liability--100,000 in the case of our own policy.

Check your personal HO policy, including exclusions, for exact liability coverage. It's been 11 years since I was an adjuster, so I just went over ours and found no exclusions, then to be doubly sure, called USAA, and they confirmed the coverage outside the US.

If you should ever need a cure for insomnia during your travels, bring along your HO policy and try reading it cover to cover! Guaranteed to make you sleep like a baby.

I don't think it would be a simple matter of just paying whatever the owner decides to charge you and then submitting the claim to the insurer. I'm not sure what procedure would be followed, but I doubt that is it. Any claim made against one's liability insurance may mean that future coverage is denied at renewal time or that the price greatly increases.

Rufus' point of view sounds intuitively correct.

I think the insurer would want an appraisal of the damage by a third party, for one thing, or at least the option to have that done.

Perhaps you and your friends and family should recognize the concept of "responsibility"!
I would not lease to you.
M

What I would like to have from the renters we have had is a much larger damage deposit than is legally allowed. Yikes when I think of the purposeful, willful, stupid damage I have seen.

But I suspect a scorch mark would qualify as normal "wear and tear" and I don't think a damage deposit could be held back for that.

Thanks OliveOyl. I am insured by USAA as well and feel strongly that they are the best insurer out there. But, I agree with Will about submitting claims. I would greatly hestiate to submit anything for amounts less than $500 or so because of concerns about increased premiums. I may take your insomnia advice to heart and actually read all the fine print! Thanks for the smile.

Another tip--if it was done "maliciously/on purpose" (as per RufusT), there is no insurance coverage ever...not here, not there, not anywhere.

And absolutely, they will not simply pay an amount agreed upon between you and the owner. They would require verification of replacement/repair cost, loss of use etc. Most insurers have a 1-800-xxx-xxxx for claims, and the correct procedure would be for you to file a claim via phone, putting the claim in their lap. You'll receive a claim # at that time. Leave that as well as the name and number of your company with the claimant, then go on your merry way.

I just have to add a point, and I usually stay out of these.

It was an accident. Someone dropped an iron and made a mark on the carpet. Some of you make it sound like she trashed the hotel room and tried to sneakout without paying. I dont think she was immoral, I think most people would have acted the same. I certainly wouldnt have been haunted with guilt at all, nor would I have felt compelled to notify anyone. Its wear and tear.

Most people seem to be acknowledging that the damage was caused by an accident. The issue is taking responsibility, or not, for having caused damage due to the accident.
I break an item in a gift shop by accident, but I am likely to be expected to pay. I spill red wine on my hostess's carpet, I will offer to pay. My dog pees on my neighbor's trousers, I offer to pay. None of the above has any malicious intent.

All of which may or may not be considered different from causing damage in a hotel room, however accidentally.

I agree that I'd love to read what the New York Times's Ethicist would say.

gracieb, Sorry...forgot to address the cancellation issue. There are a couple of large, well known companies that are noted for that. USAA isn't one of them. I haven't filed a liability claim with them, but we've had a theft under both our homeowners policy and our auto policy, as well as a couple other comprehensive claims, all with no increase in rates. That isn't so much a worry with a sound customer oriented company like USAA.

I worked for AMICA, which has even better service and more reasonable rates than USAA. At the time I was working for them, they were ranked #1 by Consumer Reports for rates and customer satisfaction, USAA #2. It is very difficult to get insurance with them, but once insured, about the only way you could lose your insurance would be to defraud the company, and rate increases because of claims would only occur if you had a slew of them and became a serious risk. There are companies who will penalize you for claims at the drop of a hat, but neither of these two will.

I'm sure many people aren't aware of the coverage they have under the personal liability section of their HO policy, but it's there if you need it. And to address the two posts above, it is always there for an accident only, not intentional damage. Think about any claim...few people intend to have a wreck...insurance claims are <i>all</i> accidents. An iron burn is not ordinary wear and tear. Neither are torn curtains mentioned in another post--not a likely scenario, but not wear and tear either, unless the things are dry rotted to begin with!!

We were shown to a room in the Omni Hotel, in Montreal that had a huge blood stain on the carpet, right at the foot of the bed.
Even with shoes on, as I walked in that room, I could not step on that stain.
We would not take the room, but having read all of this-I would love to know , if whomever bled all over that carpet, paid for it and why were they still renting out that room.

As to the scorched carpet in Paris...I am afraid that being the type of person I am, I would have run down to the desk as soon as it happened and begged forgiveness.

How would some of you have handled this example of damage? I was at a very nice rental beachhouse with a friend... newly re-furnished with gorgeous leather couches in the living room, just an exceptionally nice property that allowed pets. It was very obvious that someone had allowed their dog to scratch the devil out of one spot on a sofa. I purposely watched my dog like a hawk, to make sure he did not do anything similar. But I wondered........... how would you charge people for damage like that? Make them buy a whole new sofa........ what????????? The leather wasn't torn but definitely damaged...... I remember thinking, if I were the owner of the home, how would I have handled that when I found it? (I am super careful with my dog in someone else's home because I so appreciate them renting to pet-owners!)

bonnie-whenever we have rented vacation homes in the past, there are always huge deposits that cover any breakage or damage to the furniture.

Although it is certainly wear and tear, it isn't &quot;ordinary&quot; or &quot;normal&quot; wear and tear (the adjectives that often precede &quot;wear and tear&quot;). Indeed, the carpeting for practical purposes is destroyed. And although it was an accident, that doesn't absolve gracie from liability. 100 Euros seems cheap to replace a room of carpeting.

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago, but with a different outcome. The Doubletree in Santa Barbara, CA welcomes pets and I left my sweet, but neurotic pitbull (!) in the room while we went out to dinner for a couple of hours. Returning, we found a 4'x4'section of carpet near the door pulled up, edges unraveled, and underneath padding shredded! Owmygawd!!! My friend said to just put it back, no one will notice. Oh right... they'd have to be blind not to notice! Before the maid came the next morning - which was NOT the day we were going to check out - I reported the awful incident to the front desk and to the housekeeping supervisor. The manage(who actually smiled)said not to worry, that they'd let us know if it was bad enough to bill us. But, we never heard from them, nor were we billed! Of course, this was a big chain and not a small family-owned business. I'm sure the owners might have thought you were trying to get away with it.

The lesson I've deduced is that immediate contrition will go a long way in soothing a wronged party. You must try to forget this incident and not let it cloud what must have otherwise been a wonderful trip.

Gracie

A hotel in Nice (the St. Georges) came equipped with, among other things, a copy of what I understood to be a government sanctioned French hotel code. The code specified the obligations and entitlements of French hoteliers. For example, it specified when a hotelier could or could not require its patrons to take half board. As another example, it specified that the hotelier had the right to require patrons to leave room keys at the desk when out of the hotel.

Since I took the pamphlet to be part of the room furnishings, I left it behind, and alas, I didn't note the name of the relevant governing body. The point is, there is such an governing body, one that I would think would be best qualified to rule on what does or does not go for French hotels, rather than the idle speculations by us mere minions about cultural differences, etc. etc. So if you're not satisfied with any answer you receive here, you might try finding out about this association and contacting them for their opinion.

From my view as a lay person, your problem is complex and turns on many factors: a) is this considered normal wear and tear; b) to what degree was compensation owing to the hotel, if any? It's a tough call as to whether ironing would be taken as normal wear and tear, since the hotel didn't supply you with the iron, and furthermore irons aren't as in common use among travelers as, say, hair dryers. To be on the safe side, I'd have assumed you did owe the hotel something.

The problem is, what? Calculating compensation is complicated, and would have to consider things about which you couldn't be expected to know, such as the depreciated value of the carpet, and whether the hotel would suffer any significant loss of business if they spot-repaired the carpet, rather than replaced the entire thing.

That being the case, I don't see how you could have done other but what you ultimately did, to wit, start a round of bidding until a figure was reached upon which both parties agreed. While you aren't happy with how the emotional tone of the negotiation developed, it seems you and the hotelier did come to an agreement, howsoever strained.

Go, ye, and iron no more. (Nice to know you have the excuse, eh? ):)

Why is the identity of the hotel being kept a secret?

you provoked a good discussion here, like cocktail party banter where everyone has a say in the matter over drinks and pretzels.

I don't know why you paid for your friend's damages.

I think you are accustomed to staying in large corporate hotels and family run hotels are run differently.

When I was young I might have tried to get away with not fessing up and paying for damages I know I made.

Now that I am an adult I would of course offered to pay for damages the next time I passed by the front desk after the accident.

Please pass the cheese and fois gras....

ooops, make that pretzels I can spell that.

As fascinating as all this insurance banter is - and I do find it informative - I think common sense is more to the point.

As owner of a rental home, I've had to come up with some pretty clear delineations between what's normal wear and tear and what's unusual and worthy of a penalty. Those delineations may not be legal ones, but I think they're pretty reasonable, which is what a small family-run hotel ought to be in any country.

Breaking a wine glass, or two or three? No biggie - happens all the time. Getting ashes from the fireplace on my sofa and chair cushions? It's not my favorite thing to clean up, but I'm not going to call you on it, or even on a small burn spot - I have to recover things every few years anyway. A broken bedframe? You bet! Either you or your kids were doing something you shouldn't have been or lightning came through the window and split the side of the bed in two - in either case you should have told me right away. Will I charge you for replacing the bed? Probably not - just the cost of the carpenter who had to come and fix it. If you burned my carpet in such a way that I and future renters would notice it, I can see keeping 100 euros of your deposit if my trouble to get it fixed or replaced was going to take a couple or few hours of my time, which it probably would.

AND, I would expect you to tell me, imediately, hat had happened. The bed-breakers never mentioned it - did they think I'm blind and wouldn't notice a wooden bed frame one side of which was literally split in two? What irked me most about that incident was not that it happened - heaven knows, kids jump on beds, maybe some huge person plopped into bed too hard...whatever - but that no one mentioned it to me. Had it been me, I'd have called the owner the minute it happened toay, er, hate to tell you this, but we split your bedframe in half - what's the damage?
I, like the manager of the hotel, would also have been irked. I think if you had fessed up right at the start, it's quite possible there would have been less severe monetary consequences and you certainly wouldn't have been subjected to a tirade in public at the front desk (there's another hint about the hotel, no? Obviously the breakfast room is within hearing distance of the front desk).
I'm sure at the time you and your friend (and really, WHY didn't the friend who did this take care of all this?) were not being devious, but I suspect there was some underlying assumption that it wouldn't be noticed until you had gone. Because really, if I had burned a rug my early childhood Catholic guilt would have sent me straight to that front desk within minutes with apologies galore. I wouldn't necessarily have made an instant offer of compensation, but I would have brought the matter to the hotel's attention and then tried to figure out - or argue out - a solution with them.

Hi,
I have not read all the responses, but I think the hotel was wrong. I assume that when you have a business, part of it is repairing damage like a burn in the carpeting. There are companies that can repair that quickly and cheaply. I know this do to teenage son and cigars in the family room. If you intentionally smash something in the room that is different. I would not expect company in my house to replace or pay for accidental damage. But this is a good lesson for me. I will be more careful.

gracib, are you sorry now that you asked. ..Let's hear from your friend.

Well I have a different point of view.

What happened was a minor accident - not deliberate destruction or even negligence. And minor accidents should be considered normal wear and tear - which the hotel should either cover or file for with its insurance company.

They are running a business - badly it seems from their attitude problems. I don;t think you owe them a thing - and you should dispute the additional fee with your credit card. I think they owe you an apology for causing a scene.

Nice to see StCirq in such good form. Good work, dear.

I've been thinking about this more. Suppose the accident was as innocent as stated. The hotel has no way to tell that. It looks to all the world like the friend was ironing the clothes on the floor, and/or left the iron there for a considerable period of time. Because the accident was not reported, the hotel is naturally going to draw an adverse inference. All of this might depend on the severity and size of the burn, etc. I can understand the manager being furious.

If It left a burn like the iron's shape, I suspect, it means the iron was not noticed being left on the carpet, an accident, yes, but careless and stupid. I wouldn't know how to judge it if it were my place. Only angry comes up

Well, when you have no brain to begin with Ms. C, it's not surprising that only angry comes up, now is it? (smile)

I agree with NYTraveler-it's a business, for God's sake-there's absolutely no way I'd pay them a cent-they need to quit whining and lose the attitude, or they'll have no business left to whine about! (Oh, and I'd bet you dollars to donuts that not a cent of any money you pay them will go to repair that carpet!)

Some hotels have rules that state things like no washing/hanging up of wet clothes in the room or ironing. If the hotel had posted &quot;no ironing&quot; (which they didn't) then liability would be assumed. As others mention, it was, however, an accident and not deliberate. What if your friend had not noticed that the iron had fallen and the room caught on fire? Then,would there be liability? I think you really should send this question to the NYT ethics column!

I must admit, it would be great if I never had to take responsibility or pay for my bonehead moves! Unfortunately, I'm either not pathetic enough or attractive enough to get away with much.
I really don't understand this idea that because the hotel is a &quot;business&quot; it should somehow pay for the bonehead actions and accidents of its lodgers. Is this simply an anti-business sentiment? Even someone with relatively low standards like myself would not be thrilled to be rented a iron-sized scorch mark on the floor. For obvious reasons, the hotel owner must fix that for future tenants, probably by replacing the entire carpet. And the hotel wouldn't be in business very long if it had to replace the carpeting after each guest.

If we put aside the arguments by the non-attorneys, non-insurance folks, non-hotel folks, the others &quot;nons&quot; ... gracieb, most would sleep better if they simply held themselves accountable for the damage they do, and take the steps to rectify it. I must admit to a lack of patience with people who focus on finding loopholes to personal accountability, when they are clearly at fault. I assume you are sleeping okay, no surprise.

Hello, airlawgirl ... I'd give you a shake except I need all ten! Take care.

Carpet

I don't mean to be rude or anything. Really now... YOU damaged the carpet so why do you think that you should get away with it? I mean come on, you should at least pay for the damages. You also knew that your friend damaged it and it was your guys fault for ruining the carpet. Do some rules apply for some people but not you? You ruined it and you are responsible for it.

Has it really been over two and 1/2 months since this classic thread last surfaced?

I was obviously traveling when this appeared and I missed it.
This is so funny.
Somebody damages the carpet and can't understand why they are responsible? Where does it end? They set fire to the bed and expect the hotel to ignore it? They break out a window on purpose for more air and think it's their right? They cut up the shower curtain to use as suitcase packing and think the hotel can just get another one?
You can bet if there had been an obvious scorch mark or other damage to the carpet when gracieb arrived to the room, one of the first things she would have posted would have been, &quot;it was a two star hotel but I was shocked by the damaged and stained carpet.&quot;

Please don't come stay at my house, because if you damage something by carelessness I can't afford to replace it either.

By the way, has anyone ever dropped an iron? How quickly did you pick it up? How long would even a very hot iron have to lay on the floor to create such an obvious scorch mark? Certainly more than the few seconds reaction time it should take to pick it back up.
This is not ordinary &quot;wear and tear&quot;.

100 E is cheap to pay after all

funny thread

I can't stop thinking about this funny thread. My favorite is the number of people who seem to feel that since it wasn't clearly posted that ironing wasn't allowed, that the person doing the damage shouldn't be held responsible. Or that since it was an accident, they shouldn't have to pay for the damage.

OK let's carry this a step further. I see this future post:

&quot;I stayed in a nice hotel when I went to the sheep-shearing convention. The night before the big event, I wanted to make sure my shearing equipment was working properly so I plugged it in, but tripped and it took off. In a matter of minutes it had zipped across the bed cutting the bedspread in half, then it hit the floor and cut a four inch track through the carpet. Finally it came to rest when it got caught up in the draperies, although they were hanging in shreds.
I checked carefully and there were no rules about not allowing sheep-shearing tools in the rooms, so thankfully I can't be held responsible for the damage, especially since we know it was an accident anyway and I didn't do it on purpose.&quot;