ATM withdrawals in Europe
 

This year we traveled with a friend in Portugal and France. In a period of three days I withdrew 500€ (200 +100 +200) from two Santander branches. In Spain Santander charged a fee for withdrawal, but not in Portugal. We were pickpocketed a couple of days later, so our friend had to lend us cash for the rest of the trip. This meant that a reckoning of what we owed her had to be done back in the States and she provided us with a spread sheet of her ATM withdrawals, and she withdrew 600€ at the same time as we did from the same Santander branches. I divided her third withdrawal in half to equalize the withdrawals between hers and ours, but kept the bank fee in its entirety because that is a fixed fee regardless of the amount withdrawn.

Here are the results:
My credit union withdrawals are $566.78 starting on May 10 in case someone wants to check the posted rate for that day.
Her withdrawals through the Bank of America are $638.52 (fixed fee of $15 for three separate withdrawals).

That's a $70+ differential in cost. That adds up to quite a chunk of money over a three week trip.

For those wondering why we took out so much money; instead of paying with a credit card we used a common kitty for all common expenses: restaurants, museum tickets (unless we went to separate venues), transportation passes, any expenses for activities done in common.

Well, I'm no math genius, but you withdrew 500 euros and she withdrew 600, so there's one 100-euro difference right off the bat. She got stiffed by BOA for $15 for 3 withdrawals, and you didn't (I'm not sure why you should pay for her unwarranted withdrawal fees, but that's a small dispute). You say you divided her third withdrawal in half to equalize the amounts? OK, that seems fair, but I think it boils down to the different banks you were using and the different charges they imposed, which you had no control over. And frankly, I don't think that $70 over a 3-week period is all that horrible - it's less than $25 a week. Deduct the $15 that she stupidly pays to BOA for overseas withdrawals, and it's really negligible. And it seems there were two of you and one of her, right? That could make a difference, big time.

I really hate arrangements like this where everyone is sweating the small stuff and having to type up spreadsheets. If such amounts of money are so important to you, don't travel on a cash basis with friends.

You could have broken your "rule" and used a credit card, and she could have reimbursed you for her portion of any expense. Instead, she helped you out with cash. I don't think you "owe" her for the bank fees (as StCirq pointed out, there are banking options without fees), but, in a gesture of friendship and appreciation (hopefully you were happy travelers together), I would offer to split them.

Like StCirq, I couldn't travel like this. There are so many aspects to travel and travel planning that can't be measured in money. Did any of you spend time and effort researching and booking tours, hotels, restaurants, finding museum hours, train timetables, comparing air fares, etc.?

What kind and understanding advice.

As I explained, I took that into account by diving her last withdrawal in half. That small stuff adds up when we have about $4,000 worth of withdrawals.

For readers who think that I am outraged and resent paying back our friend, you are wrong. I think that BofA has outrageous fee structures, and this is a prime example.

I lost everything, credit card, debit card, driver's license, as did my wife, on the same day. We eventually got an extra card 5 days later. But that is not the point, nor am I complaining about her charging me for the bank fees. We fully accept the costs, it was beyond our control. I am just trying to point out that BofA has an outrageous rate of exchange and fee structure, and that there are alternatives.

To clarify further out relationship on this trip: I did all the Airbnb reservations, and some hotel reservations, purchased the Easyjet tickets, the SNCF tickets, and then filed for a refund when we missed our train due to a late plane. It's not a problem, iI do it for the two of us, the third party does not add any complications except in trying to judge the quality of an apartment, which I might remember to describe in my eventual trip report. I started this post meant as an advice to those who plan to travel to Europe. For all I know, advising us to use a credit card might be no better in that her BofA credit card (we did not have one for a while) might also use a rate of exchange that is significantly worse than the average posted daily rate. For those interested, here is a site where cost can be evaluated: https://www.xe.com/creditcard-charges-calculator/

OK. I read your post more carefully. The total ATM withdrawals are over $4000 for the whole trip. I was comparing only two days of withdrawals at a period where we were both using the same branches of Santander to withdraw the money. Everything was equal except the bank in the States.

I'm sorry to read you were pick-pocketed. I know how that feels and count myself lucky that they only got some cash that day (in the Kiev train station). Your friend pulled your bacon out of the fire so quibbling over bank withdrawal fees as some suggested seems pretty churlish. I'm glad you made it through your trip all right.

I believe most all the major banks -- BoA, Chase, Wells Fargo, etc. charge ridiculous fees which is why I opened a different account (Capital One) for travel that charges no fees like that. I have accounts with BoA and Chase but would use their atm cards overseas only as a last resort. It's definitely a live and learn kind of thing and I will be changing my tactics for carrying cards/cash/passport in the future.

The one credit card I eventually used, FedEx'd from the States, is a Chase card which charged less than 1% of the daily average.

I am sort of perplexed re the reason for your thread?? Is is mainly to warn that BofA charges a LOT for out-of-system ATM usage?? That is a given and has been so for decades. Some people choose to use BofA for other reasons and just accept their fee structure as a cost of being a BofA customer. Others are clueless and don't know other banks charge less.

Seems strange that both you and your wife were pick pocketed and lost everything on the same day. Unless one of you carries everything. Don't you split cards/cash/etc - losing one ATM or credit card wouldn't be as big a deal if a spouse had duplicate and/or spare cards . . .

I suppose that overall $5 atm charges don't add up to that much but when you include the 3% conversion fees it just feels like insult added to injury. I think that people who don't frequent travel forums just don't think about all the pesky details with so many other things to think about, and opening up a new bank account for travel may not be all that practical.

BoA is notorious for its fees, has been for a long time.

Not just BoA unfortunately.

And the dates?

<<I am just trying to point out that BofA has an outrageous rate of exchange and fee structure, and that there are alternatives.>>

Well, that is not how your post came across. Rather, it sounded as if you were ticked off at your traveling companion for having incurred $70 more in trip expenses over 3 weeks. I think everyone here is aware of the outrageous fees some banks charge.

I think it was clear that BOA outrageous fees was the main point, and no, I don't think EVERYBODY is aware. I've heard novice travelers convinced that BOA is a good choice because they stress the European partner bank angle. We left BOA years ago because of ridiculous fees even without travel.

So I guess

1) try not to get pick pocketed by thieves
2) try not to get pick pocketed by your bank. They have to understand that their inefficiency just does not work in the modern world. Dump them and find a lower cost money supplier
3) Europe basically accepts cards (well not American Express, obviously, as was pointed out to me many times in the Netherlands last weekend, but normal Visa and Mastercard cards) and not always in Germany and Austria but that is changing fast. Next time avoid cash
4) I'd pay the fees of a friend who helped me out. All of them. Period.

In case anyone feels like pointing out how many American Express card logos on restaurants exist all over Europe, I'd point out, maybe, but try using it in Central Amsterdam and find out often it actually works.

>>4) I'd pay the fees of a friend who helped me out. All of them. Period.<<
Agree. Or at least, split that too.
I avoid withdrawing a small amount from ATM if there were a $5 transaction fee tagged on.

Please tell us how you both got pick pocketed and where. I have pnc and they even reinburse me fees if an atm charges me.

B of A used to waive transaction fees if you used their "partner" banks. About 8 years ago, they started charging $5 when using partner banks. We then switched to Charles Schwab, where we can use ANY ATM and all fees are refunded back to us by Charles Schwab.

It's a given for seasoned travelers. Yet our friend, who is a seasoned traveler, somehow was not aware of it, and blamed the local bank for the fees. That is why, in case there were any questions by readers, I tried to define the issue in such a way that it eliminates any other possibility; for example, different banks in Spain charge different fees for using the ATM. I should have been less transparent. I mentioned the pickpocketing because that was the reason I saw our friend's withdrawal costs. Normally I do not inquire about someone else's finances, but in this instance she had to give us the bill, so to speak, and I happened to have used my ATM card enough to make a valid comparison.

No we do not split things, and my wife has been pickpocketed several times in Europe, but never with serious consequences. For this reason I carry passports and my wallet has two credit cards and two debit cards, under the assumption that the issue with one card or another is immediate use (card not accepted, debit card swallowed by machine), not loss.. My wife has one debit and one credit card. This is the first time that I was pickpocketed in the 25 years of using a pouch.

We were in Belem and I think that it was in the church of the monastery, as it was very crowded. But it also could have been at the big monument next to the water.

Oh wow, that's bad. So very sorry.

What sort of pouch? If it was a money belt under your clothes I don't understand how you were pickpocketed. Rather than you carrying your wife's passport, either it should be in a hotel safe, or in a money belt under her clothes, although you didn't list passports as items that were stolen this time.

Get a travel credit card which doesn't impose surcharges for foreign exchange and also gives you some rewards. For instance, I use the BofA Cash Rewards card with no annual fee, no FX. And I use it to pay for gas and also could use it for restaurants to get 3X.

I also use Chase Sapphire Reserve, which has a very high annual fee and uses a slightly higher FX rate than the BofA card. But I use it to get 3X points on restaurants and hotel charges or anything related to travel. I have several hundred thousand points that I can transfer to several airlines for miles.

And I use Apple Pay whenever I can, so that I never have to pull out the physical credit cards. Sure phones can be stolen or lost but they can also be tracked by GPS.

For cash, I have a Investors Checking account with Schwab which pays decent interest and doesn't impose any account fees. You may have to have a brokerage account though. My brokerage account balance is under $10 and I keep about $1000 in my Schwab Investors Checking account. II transfer more money from my main credit union checking account by ACH using my online accounts at both institutions.

I use the Schwab ATM card for my withdrawals. They will rebate me any ATM fees from any ATM in the world -- though I've never been to dodgy countries like Russia or China. Schwab never imposes ATM surcharges, uses the lowest FX rates and rebates me 4 or 5 Euros for fees imposed by certain ATMs. I never carry more than 50-100 Euros in cash. I use credit cards whenever, because of convenience, security and points.

How anyone is carrying hundreds of Euros around in this day and age is baffling.

Yes, if your pouch was under your clothing, that pickpocket was really good at his/her job... like how did s/he know it was there in the first place?

Just for others - it is a really bad idea for couples to stash everything together, whether it is using one communal suitcase or one person carrying ALL the cards/cash/IDs

My CapOne cards have no transaction fees for credit card or ATM card and -- I'm pretty sure -- refund ATM fees.
My American Airlines credit card (Barclay's Bank) has no transaction fees.
As stated, there are lots of non-BA options.

As for the $15, I'm no math genius either, but that's nothing compared to the total money spent on your trip. Do what makes everyone happy. Even $70 split in half is trivial in comparison.

ssander

It's an exterior pouch hanging on my belt.

As for the $15, I'm no math genius either, but that's nothing compared to the total money spent on your trip. Do what makes everyone happy. Even $70 split in half is trivial in comparison.

16 withdrawals with one of $10 in France, that adds up. As for splitting, we will be paying two thirds of the withdrawals that constitute money placed into the kitty. Part of the withdrawals were for her own personal use, such as small purchases, postcards and stamps.

At $5.00 per withdrawal (never mind the conversion fees) I'd be pulling out as much cash as I could at one time. Reading this thread makes me glad I use a different account for travel.

Talk about an invitation to theft. You are d*** lucky you haven't been robbed before. I use this: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lewis-N-C...db&athena=true worn under my clothes and not accessed in public. One day's supply of cash and at most one credit card is somewhere accessible. If I need to visit an ATM I also have one ATM card accessible, I go on high alert, I use a bank ATM during business hours, inside a bank if at all possible, and I return the card and the cash to the money belt pronto, either by returning to my hotel or using a public toilet.

I think we are going off-topic. I'll take the odds.

>>It's an exterior pouch hanging on my belt.<<

Huh? You might as well pin a sign on your wallet -- "Free credit cards - Here >"

>>As for splitting, we will be paying two thirds of the withdrawals that constitute money placed into the kitty. Part of the withdrawals were for her own personal use, such as small purchases, postcards and stamps.<<

You are a sport. She bailed you out big time and you want to nickel and dime over ATM fees?

Nobody took me up on such an offer in 25 years.

I am not nickel and diming her. I am paying two thirds of the kitty, which includes two-thirds of all the fees. How is that complaining about the fees? My point is that not all banks are equal.

Nobody took me up on such an offer in 25 years.

I am not nickel and diming her. I am paying two thirds of the kitty, which includes two-thirds of all the fees. How is that complaining about the fees? My point is that not all banks are equal.

If I am travelling with my freinds I have everything with me as do they. I do try and split things up or if a safe leave some things there. Regardless, it happened and sorry. Rick Steves got pickpocketed this year. Very embarrassing for him to admit I would think. I hope it never happens to me.