ATM fees—Help me! My bank is talking in cursive!
 

I was going to tack this on to a previous thread, but they seem to mix CC and ATMs, so here we go again. This applies ONLY to ATMs. Don't post CC stuff again!

I just opened a new bank account at Bank of the West so I would have a second ATM card as backup when I'm in Europe. (Actually I will use the CU and the bank, just to see what happens.)

Received a notice with the first statement that for foreign ATM conversions, Visa/MC would use that strange rate we have all been notified of. Then, that as of June 1, the bank would pass on the 1% Visa/MC conversion charge to us without stating it, so that if our transaction equaled $100 in Visa money, it would appear on our statements as $101.

Yikes! Does that mean that the bank has been absorbing that fee all this time? Or what? Am I going to make out like a bandit in May?

I've oftened wondered if there's any difference in conversion between an ATM only card versus a visa/mastercard debit card. Does anyone know? I use an ATM only card.

LVSUe,

I am TRULY counting on you and other Fodor's posters to go and report back to the rest of us the "down and dirty" truth of the matter.

Who knows what your bank means by this!! The best way, really the only way to know, is for you to share your story upon your return. And, then, of course, it will be what was true for your bank and CU, not necessarily mine or the next guy's.

Really not much one can do about it. Just like the value of the dollar, grin and bear it. And above all else, these trips are wonderful experiences, so just go and enjoy yourself! And remember to post when you return.

Well what I can tell you is that last year when I had a BofA ATM only card and it wouldn't work at a number of banks, a manager at a Deutsche Bank in Rome told me that it wouldn't work because it had no Visa logo -- in other words it wasn't also a debit card. That's when he also said that another "new" thing was that now that VISA services was doing all their ATM foreign transactions, Visa was also adding a 1% charge to them. So in other words, the ATM only card IF it worked apparently wouldn't have had a 1% charge, but as a VISA related debit card it did. At least that's the way I interpret his remarks.

Hi, LVSue! You will probably be charged a withdrawl fee by the foreign bank where the ATM is situated. In addition, you will be charged a transaction fee by your home bank for having used an ATM out of their network system. Between this 'n that, you may be charged about 2-3%, or sometimes a flat fee of $3-6, for each foreign withdrawl. Many Fodorites have indicated that they now do one large withdrawl every several days, instead of smaller daily withdrawls. You asked whether you will make out like a bandit. No, you won't; your bank, however, certainly will. Enjoy the trip; do a trip report on it afterwards that we can all read. Bon voyage!

I can describe what I have experienced outside of the US when I used my ATM cards. I have two checking accounts that I use for travel purposes, one is with Bank of America, the other with Wachovia.

BOA and Wachovia both allow me two off net transactions per month at no extra charge. If I go to an affiliate bank, I am not charged an extra fee at any time. For example, in the UK, Barclays Bank is a Bank of America affiliate and cash withdrawals with my ATM card are not trreated as off net transactions.

In Canada, Scotiabank had the same arrangements with BOA. If I used Scotiabank's ATMs I was "on net."

If I exceed the limit of 2 monthly off net transactions, I got charged a flat fee of $2.00 per transaction regardless of the amount withdrawn.

I think it is important to know which foreign banks are affiliated with your bank so you can minimize off net transaction fees. I probably saved $20 by using affiliates.

Now, about the exchange rate and Visa charges. I kept my receipts and checked the wholesale bank rate of exchange on the dates I used my cards. As near as I can tell I was charged the wholesale bank rate of exchange plus 1%.

In prior years I did the same thing, and got the same results as I did this past summer.

To append my previous post, let me describe my experience with debit cards (check cards). In 1998 and 1999, I had both an ATM card and a debit card for Bank of America. There were two instances where the ATM card failed but the debit card worked.

Since 1999, I have not experienced any problems with either card. I take the debit card along as a backup in case some voracious ATM decides to eat my main card.

I did have a credit card refused once, but that is a whole 'nother story.

I'm sorry. As usual, try as I may, I managed to leave off information. My bank card has the M/C logo; new CU has the Visa; both are debit cards (I changed from only ATM after I had some trouble in France last year and after reading Patrick's posts). Neither my bank nor CU will be charging extra fees: bank does not charge off-net (though it is associated with BNP and I will try to use that at least once to see if there is any difference); CU allows 4 free w/d/month.

John, as I understand it, European banks are prohibited by law from charging for transactions. The rest of you, is that still true?

But why would the bank say that as of June 1 it will be adding the V/MC 1% charge? I can't believe that they were absorbing it all along. I simply believe that now they are admitting they have been adding it.

At any rate, I will keep tabs on the results and report back. I am truly not obsessive about getting the best rate; I would just like to be leveled with.

What's the best place to get a history on FX? I have been using oanda.com (great place for printing up a "cheat sheet"), but I've seen others mentioned here.

"But why would the bank say that as of June 1 it will be adding the V/MC 1% charge? I can't believe that they were absorbing it all along. I simply believe that now they are admitting they have been adding it."

Well, there have been many postings here about the lawsuit involving Amex foreign transaction charges. These "hidden" foreign transaction charges must now be disclosed. Therefore, I think it is safe to assume that many of our banks/credit card companies have had "hidden" foreign transaction charges for awhile that are now being disclosed. Also, some of these charges are being increased. And the way Visa calculates the foreign currency exchange is different, seems like whatever index they wish to use (the language reads very vaguely, which gives the banks/finance companies all the discretion to complete the transaction however they wish). All very mysterious. Many changes went into effective 4/1, so as Fodorites return from their travels, I am sure we will gain some good information.

LVsue,
I also have gotten the same notice from the B of W. The essense of the notice was that they had not been explicit about what they have been doing when you use foreign ATMs. They are now merely stating what they have been doing all along.
I have been verifying historical exchange rate given at:

http://fx.sauder.ubc.ca/

against the B of W statement. As long as I can remember, they have been charging me 1% fee that VISA, now MC, has been charging. These charges never appear separately on the statement. Some people think because you don't see them, there is no fee. Not so; they are buried inside the exchange rate.

Hi LV,

Visa and MC have always added one point to the bank rate. Your bank is only now admitting it.

>European banks are prohibited by law from charging for transactions. <

You are correct.

((I))

Until about the middle 1990's, the regulations of the shared teller networks had rules prohibiting banks from surcharging withdrawals from their ATM machines. Georgia and another state or two passed laws prohibiting Cirrus and plus from enforcing that rule in Georgia and banks in Georgia began the practice of charging non customers for using their ATM machines. The pressure built and cirrus and plus were forced to relax that rule but what was retained was a prohibition on surcharging cards from outside the country of the machine; thus US cardholders using a bank ATM on the cirrus and/or plus networks do not pay surcharges to use these machines. What you pay is whatever your bank wishes to rip you off with and that fee varies from what it should be i.e. $0 to as much as $5 per transaction.

Now some Canadians claim this isn't so and point to examples of being charged for using bank ATM's in the US with their Canadian cards; perhaps the reason being the transaction clear through other networks than cirrus and/or plus such as star or NYCE which do not have this prohibition.

In addition, it is claimed and I don't doubt this is true, that some non bank ATM's charge fees for using their machines...don't know how they get away with that.

Of course as we can see with the shenanigans visa is pulling and the 1% surcharge they now put on for all foreign transactions even in US currency, what is true today may not be true the day after tomorrow.

My guess is that there has always been the 1% conversion fee added to all transactions by VISA & MC. Sounds like your bank is now adding 1% on to that. From reading other comments, some banks add up to 3%.

Luckily, my bank/credit card company does not add on anything additional to the normal 1% conversion fee (YET). ((b))

The banks are not charging NEW fees - they have been required by law to DISCLOSE the fees that they have been charging all along. If your disclosure notification says 1% will be passed along, that is the basic network fee that no one can escape.

Some of the fees are new....the 1% on foreign transactions in US dollars is new and of course unwarranted..in addition they have become much more vague as to just what rate they add 1% to...no longer do they say they use the interbank rate + 1% but rather some vague language about what rates are available to them.

You may also wish to look at www.visa.com/exchangerates to try to figure out what is going on..I've read the site and it still seems like double talk to me.

If the issue has been debated to the satisfaction of others, could someone pause for a moment to explain to me what "talking in cursive" means?

A figurative expression, clearly. I know what cursive writing is and where "cursive" comes from (the Latin verb "to run")

Does it mean talking nonsense? talking confusingly? talking misleadingly?

I don't have a debit card, only an ATM card from my bank so it doesn't have that VISA affiliation and doesn't have that added VISA fee. However, I have also been told something along these same lines recently, only from one of my credit cards. They didn't describe it very well, either, and couldn't really explain what they meant -- something about how you wouldn't be charged that one pct any more from Mastercard, it will only be from us instead. This was a card that doesn't add any fee of its own on top of the one pct MC fee.

I haven't used that card abroad yet, but the best I could figure out is what the above posts say -- there is no real change in fees, it was just not visible before as it was in the conversion rate and now they are going to have to itemize it separately so you see it.

xyz123: ok, VISA is adding a new 1% fee called &quot;International Service Assessment&quot; but they are eliminating their prior 1% fee called &quot;multicurrency conversion fee&quot;- so, in effect, <b>they have always charged a 1% fee</b>.

<u>Direct quote from the website you gave:</u>
Has Visa changed its fee structure for international transactions?
Effective April 1, Visa will assess a 1% International Service Assessment (ISA). The ISA is not a currency conversion fee but rather a charge to issuing banks when transactions use the global payment system. The ISA will be charged to Issuers on same currency, cross-border transactions like DCC. Visa will no longer charge issuing banks the 1% Multicurrency conversion fee. It is important to note that Issuing banks determine the cardholder pricing structure. Some banks charge mark-ups for same-currency cross-border transactions; others do not. If you frequently travel internationally, the different pricing structures charged by issuing banks should be one of the factors you take into consideration when you select the Visa card that best suits your needs.

Sue, I'm sorry as I may have responded about something different than what you meant. Are you referring to an ATM-only card that you have from this bank, not a debit card with the VISA logo on it? If so, I guess that is similar to my card which has no VISA/MC logo on it, but I have never been informed by my bank that there can be a VISA charge on my ATM-only card. Now, maybe they do just because I know the networks that it uses are owned by VISA/MC, so maybe there was a built-in one pct ATM network use fee (ie, CIRRUS/PLUS) on this card I was never aware of.

If so, there's nothing one can do about it. One can assume no bank ever absorbed any cost.

Here's another interesting explanation about the change of the 1% fee from VISA.
http://www.nationalbank.co.nz/promos...cards.htm#what

Why is there no Visa currency conversion charge?

Prior to 1 April 2005 Visa applied the currency conversion charge directly to the cardholder. From 1 April 2005 Visa are charging their currency conversion charge directly to the Bank.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Of course, it's doubtful that banks will not pass that 1% right along to the consumer.

Wow. I know this is a sensitive subject, but it seems a number of people are NOT reading LVSue's original question and/or are giving bad or WRONG information.

First of all, Budman. LVSue has specifically said
&quot;Don't post CC stuff again!&quot; She is ONLY asking about ATM cards. When you talk about Visa always adding 1% and other banks adding up to 3%, surely you are talking about credit cards NOT ATM cards, aren't you? I have never heard that in the past (until recently) there were additional 1% charges added to credit card withdrawals and I have NEVER heard of banks adding 3% to ATM withdrawals.

And JohnWM, when you say:
&quot;You will probably be charged a withdrawl fee by the foreign bank where the ATM is situated.&quot;
I have no idea what you're talking about. I have used foreign ATMs for years hundreds of times and have never ever been charged any fee any time by a foreign bank for using my ATM card there. In fact, I have always understood it is forbidden by European bank law for them to charge you anything for using their ATM. Although your own bank may charge you a fee for using a foreign ATM.

Please folks, this issue is confusing enough (and tedgale, I too am confused by what &quot;talking in cursive&quot; means) without giving out wrong information!

And now after my little lecture, I must apologize for a mistake in my post.

In the part to Budman, I meant to say:
&quot; I have never heard that in the past (until recently) there were additional 1% charges added to &lt;ATM&gt; withdrawals and I have NEVER heard of banks adding 3% to ATM withdrawals.
I mistakenly used the term &lt;credit card withdrawals&gt; instead of ATM withdrawals, the very mistake I was accusing Budman of mixing up.

ATM cards whether they are Visa/MC debit cards or non-debit cards that use the Cirrus/Plus network have always charged the 1% MC/Visa conversion fee. The Plus/Cirrus ATM system is run by MC/Visa, hence their usual fees. This fee was just never overtly shown on your bank statements but bundled in your conversion amount. What you are seeing now is in response to CC lawsuits about undeclared or hidden fees.
In additon to the foreign currency conversion charge, your own bank may charge an out-of-network per use fee. As several posters noted, these fees can be avoided by using overseas banks affiliated to your own.

European BANK ATMs do not charge fees for &quot;foreign&quot; ATM card use but there are many charging ATMs out there. These are usually &quot;convenience&quot; ATMs (convenience stores, post office, casinos, etc). You must look for the bank logo and also read the ATM screen carefully if you want to avoid local ATM fees. Charging ATMs are supposed to disclose their fee before completion of transaction.

Patrick, I understand what the original poster said about CC's, but when you use an ATM machine, whether it be an ATM card, a Credit Card, or a VISA/MC Debit Card, you are drawing local currency. In all cases, there is a 1% conversion fee to convert your $$$ into the local currency.

Obviously, all 3 types of cards are associated with a banks and/or CU's. It's my understanding that the banks/CU's may or may not charge additional fees. The 1%, 3%, $1, $5, or whatever other charge the bank/CU's apply is in addition to the conversion fee.

If the 1% conversion fee is now charged to the financial institution and the financial institution is now passing on that fee to the user, same soup, different bowl.

Patrick, thanks for the lecture. I need a good spanking every now and then. ((a)) ((b))

Budman, you may be right, but it is still my understanding that what you are referring to were the 1% fees charged by VISA or some other services who handled the transactions. But it is my understanding that until recently many large banks did not employ such a service for ATM transactions -- which were handled directly between banks and did NOT have any charge at all either hidden or otherwise over the daily bank exchange rate. But more and more banks are NOW using Visa services to handle their ATM transactions as well as credit card charges and YES those do involve a 1% charge, again whether it shows or not has been up to the bank.

But again, I've never heard of a BANK adding a percentage charge to ATM withdrawals -- only some sort of set fee. That 3% additional ONLY applies to credit card transactions so far as I need.

PS. Sorry, I hope you'll be able to sit down soon. :D

Patrick,
Banks have actually used the VISA/MC network for ages to handle the ATM conversions. If your ATM card has Plus/Cirrus on it, it is part of the Visa/MC network and the same 1% currency conversion fee applied. The difference was it was not disclosed by the banks previously or listed as a separate fee.

Some banks have been adding additional fees over the Plus/Cirrus (MC/Visa) 1% fees. This is in additon to the out-of-network fee. Talk about really gouging the customer! This would be in the fine print disclosure forms they include with your statements.

I know - try 2 different ATM cards and 2 different credit cards, go home and analyze the transactions on your statement, THEN (and only then?) will you know how it works!

My bank always told me that when I used the VISA check card to withdraw cash from an ATM overseas, that there would be NO fee whatsoever from them. Any fee would be levied by the operator of the ATM. With my last statement, I received a notice that stated VISA had been assessing a hidden 1% fee for foreign transactions (ATM included)ie does not appear as a separate charge on the statement.
Effective this month, my bank will begin assessing a 1% &quot;foreign transaction fee&quot; including ATMs and the charge will appear separately. However, the notice claims that the VISA &quot;hidden&quot; 1% fee will end.

This is still a much better deal than cashing in traveler's checks overseas. If you consider the exorbitant fees and usually poor exchange rates involved, you're lucky to get 80 cents on the dollar.

niblette, again I could be wrong, but I think that while Visa was handling SOME ATM transactions -- they weren't handling all of them. This became very clear to me when in Belgium my ATM only card -- no VISA logo -- would not work and a bank manager told me it was because now all Belgium banks were using VISA services for ATM transactions and as a result my card wouldn't work. In other countries some banks were still doing their own direct transactions, which is why I was assuming my card still worked without a debit or VISA connection (or Cirrus or Plus). And the manager at the Deutsche Bank in Rome specifically told me that until very recently there had been no extra charge on their ATM withdrawals, but since VISA services had now taken over that job, there would be a 1% fee added by them. In other words, VISA had not been doing the ATM transactions for them previously and until just last summer, Deutsche Banks did not add even a 1% charge to ATM withdrawals. Now, of course, they do.

Patrick,
What you encountered has to do with the TYPE of card used vs network used. It's the same network whether you use a Plus/Cirrus plain ATM vs Visa-branded debit card. It's just they are forcing you to use a debit card now. Banks have been trying to convert customers over to the debit card instead of the plain ATM card. This is just an example of one of their methods.
I travel very widely and have not yet encountered what you describe. I refuse to get a debit card. I don't like the idea of someone possibly stealing the info and draining my account - all without having to have the PIN. Then having to spend much time and effort to try to get that money back, not to mention aggravation and penalties involved from bounced checks.

Visa and MC own the PLUS and Cirrus networks which are used for ATM transactions. Banks could elect to join to be part of this network, as most do. This is the same network whether it is labelled Plus/Cirrus or VISA/MC on your ATM/debit card. It is because of these networks that ATMs can be used so widely, whether internationally or domestically.

If you think back to the days before Plus/Cirrus were widely used, ATMs could not be used as we are using them now. Traveling as a student a little over 10 years ago, I had a ATM that did not have Plus/Cirrus. It could not be used internationally. Did not understand that until I did some ATM research when I got home.
Subsequently, with another ATM card, I can't use my card at any ATM internationally that's not part of the Plus/Cirrus network. My bank is part of several other networks but Plus/Cirrus are the only ones I've seen overseas.

Hope this clear things up a bit.

&quot;talking in cursive&quot;

I plucked a phrase from my memory that makes absolutely no sense in this situation, but I thought it might attract attention.

In the 70s I taught remedial reading to 9th graders and in junior high at that time we were supposed to encourage/demand that students use handwriting rather than printing. Well, hormones are of course running rampant at that age and one male student grabbed a female in passing, so she turned to him and said, &quot;Reggie, get your #$%@ hands off me!&quot; The room fell silent and all heads turned to me to see what I would do about the foul language. Then a wonderful diplomat piped up with &quot;Oh, Mrs. Wright, Lisa's talking in cursive!&quot; That certainly broke the tension.

niblette, I agree with most of what you're saying, but apparently you haven't traveled in Belgium lately where apparently ALL bank ATMS will only accept a debit card. We tried dozens of ATMs in several cities and were firmly told by a bank manager in Brussels that ALL BELGIUM BANKS now use the VISA services and therefore ATM only cards will NOT work. Period. End of story. And last summer was the first time we encountered the same thing with an ATM only card in Italy, in fact at one ATM where the exact same card had worked perfectly the year before. Previously the bank had used other international bank services for their ATM transactions, but last summer switched to letting VISA international services handle all of them -- hence the change.

This is a new development, and I have now taken by own bank manager's advice and followed the statement on the BankofAmerica website, that there is an IMMEDIATE replacement of all funds into your bank account upon notification of a card being lost or stolen. So I simply no longer worry about that possibility.

Patrick,
One potential problem I see with a debit card is that because it can be used as a credit card without a pin, your card doesn't necessarily have to be lost or stolen for fraud to occur. Am I correct? I recently had my Amex number stolen while abroad (the card itself never left my possession). I didn't realize it until after I returned home and saw a $1800 charge on my online statement for an airline ticket. But since it was a charge card, no money was actually debited from my own personal bank account and I simply had to call Amex to have a temporary credit and new card issued. Now imagine if that had happened with a debit card. Several days would have elapsed until the fraud was detected and in the meantime, your mortgage payment just bounced. I suppose one could open a separate checking account for travel funds only which isn't used for day to day expenses, but that seems like a hassle too. If it's true that Belgian banks will no longer accept ATM only cards, then I'm not sure what the best solution is. But personally, I'm not comfortable with a debit card even at home.

Well, Patty I see what you mean, and we recently had a similar thing with a credit card number being &quot;stolen&quot; although we never lost the card. But the part I don't get is, if you never USE the debit card anywhere except in an ATM machine and it isn't lost or stolen, I'm not sure how anyone could have possibly stolen your number. Unlike a credit card where they got it from a sales receipt, if the debit card never left your hands and was never used as a credit card, I fail to see how anyone could deplete your funds. In any case, I never intend to use my newly issued ATM/debit card as a debit or a credit card, so I feel pretty safe about my accounts.

Plus is owned by Visa. Cirrus is owned by MasterCard. Your ATM card doesnt work in Belgium. Check the logo on the back of your card. If your card has Cirrus logo or Interac logo, try using a Plus card. Let us know what happens.

Oh and if your card doesnt have either logo. Then visit you branch office and as for an international ATM debit card - one that will carry a Plus or Cirrus logo.

And a question for those who know, do ATM cards with just the Interac logo work in Europe? Any experiences?

Patrick,
Here is one way a thief can steal debit card info when you &quot;only&quot; use your card at ATMs:


http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/atmcamera.asp

http://www.psecu.com/About_Us/News/F.../20030707.html

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000740038020/

well, Greg, I can assure you that no camera can get my pin as I punch it into an ATM. I hold my own hand over the numbers and I can tell you that the cameras they're talking about to record the punching in of numbers, will not do them any good.

By the way, I'm not losing sleep over the extremely rare possibility of such action. I'll be sure to report here if and when my identity is stolen from my ATM card, and if and when BofA refuses to honor their own statement about replentishing illegally drawn funds from my account immediately. I suggest you not hold your breath.

Oh, and by the way, those examples you gave have nothing to do with someone being able to steal the identity from an ATM/debit card any easier than a plain ATM card. So what was the point in regards to my issues?

Author: joetravel
Date: 04/20/2005, 01:44 am
Plus is owned by Visa. Cirrus is owned by MasterCard. Your ATM card doesnt work in Belgium. Check the logo on the back of your card. If your card has Cirrus logo or Interac logo, try using a Plus card. Let us know what happens.

Joe, I'm not sure what you mean. The issue was not with either Plus or Cirrus. An ATM only card will not have either logo because it is not connected with either Visa or MC, and that is the problem as to why it will not work -- period. If the card had either logo, then possibilities are very strong it will work fine, because that means it is an ATM/debit card -- not an ATM only card.