I look for " myself" and always see Barcelona .
So, sue me.

OK, BigAleinstein, I certainly could have mentioned Helsinki based on quite sunny days and sightseeing when there awhile back. Or other places of course.

Bill in Boston

I don't do lists centraleurope.

A friend of mine used to always say about places, 'that is one of the second best places I've ever visited.' What he meant was he had to leave room for the possibility of finding a better place tomorrow. Otherwise, why continue on?

If I already knew what my 10 favourite cities in Europe were, what sense would there be to visiting any new ones? As I say in my profile: "Favorite destinations
don't know yet and don't expect to until the end"

If you think about it, how can anyone say otherwise UNLESS they have visited EVERY city in Europe? Even in the end (of your life) you are unlikely to have visited them all and so the best you will be able to say on your deathbed is, 'Here are my favourites so far.'

However insulted people might feel, the fact is most people are tourists who tour the usual places. Few are truly independent travellers who think for themselves independently.>

I as a retired travel writer who has written articleds on and visited every knook and cranny in Europe - Lecce and all such cities and love them but I love more multi-faceted cities like London, Paris or Rome - a Lecce would bore me after a day or two - I could still like it but it would not make the top of my favorite cities and thus why so many well traveled folks above list the main cities - it is not necessarily following the herd like RM hints at but just love large cities - Berlin and the type where you can spend weeks and not be bored vs Lecce where I become bored in a day or two, lovely as it is.

You are in a position to have such an opinion PalenQ. Most posters here are not. So how can they possibly know what their favourite cities will be until they have visited enough to know the difference? ;-)

Most won't go beyond the well-known and decide for themselves what they prefer, you have.

Exactly, PQ

Posters who spend most of the time scolding others - all one needs is to
read Imprviser's
other posts - are mostly looking for a place to pamper their ego.

It's a hell of an assumption that because people list 'obvious' cities as favourites, they can't possibly have been anywhere off the beaten track. Or have been, but diliked places off the beaten track. What precludes people from having loved less obvious cities like Padua, Quimper etc but just not liking them quite as much as Venice or Paris?

And it's perfectly possible to have favourites out of the places you've visited so far. It's ridiculous to say you shouldn't attempt to list favourites until you've seen every metropolis on the continent. Maybe travel writers shouldn't write articles in case they big up somewhere at the expense of somewhere better but as yet undiscovered. Maybe people shouldn't give advice on restaurants until they've dined at every single restaurant in that city. Twice, in case the chef has on off day. What would be the point of this board at all if advice and opinion always needed to be qualified in that manner. Or had to meet someone else's 'cool' index.

Want to have a posting that will be exorcised quickly-places in Europe, I would never visit again.

I haven't yet travelled enough to generate a list. But, the above lists are helpful to give me an idea of where I might enjoy for a next destination.

BigAl, please start that post. I'll play!

PalenQ, my list:

1. Paris. I've only been 4 times, though, so maybe I don't know any better. ;)
2. Krakow
3. Istanbul
4. Sarajevo
5. Belgrade
6. Prague
7. Rome
8. Tuscany (in the off season)
9. Vienna. I live here, and am finding new ways to love my temporary home every day.
10. Sofia

This thread was started as a simple request to list one's favourite cities. A place can only be a "favorite" if one has experienced it. It would be difficult to describe a place as a favorite if one had never actually visited it. All but the most experienced travelers will, of course, have experience with only a relatively small number of larger cities and that those cities would tend to be "gateway" cities with a great number of sights available Therefore any list of favorites would naturally skew to those places.

The request was not one to the list the most esoteric, interesting, or worthy places. It was not to list places connected by a theme, or places which are "original" (a strange choice of adjective, I think). it was to list favorites.

There also seems to be a bit of a challenge here in understanding the concept of "favorite". The term is not a temporal absolute, as Improviser chooses to explain it. It is not impossible to have a "favorite" place until one has actually experienced every city in Europe. It is also ludicrous to suggest that there is no sense in visiting any new places if one deigns to describe any place already visited as a "favorite". Words seem to be taking on new meaning.

Improviser decided that the simple and fun focus of this thread presented an opportunity to criticize other people for "being common", "following the herd", doing "what the masses do", or simply for not getting out enough and experiencing enough places to participate in such a discussion. In so doing, he/she seeks to elevate him/herself from those common herded masses. What is especially interesting here is the attempt to subjugate common terms of language to the same end.

I expect I shall enjoy your participation in these forums, Improviser - Welcome

Wow 4... Sofia?... What did you like about it, if I may ask?...

We lived in Bratislava where we had very close friends from Sofia. They have always been quite negative about their home city.

We are now living in Budapest. ... But should I not elect to retire, Sofia would be a likely place I will be asked to move. I have never thought positively of the city. Perhaps I should visit?

Nice list... I have been to the other cities... But have had this anti Sofia bias ....

For me, it is always Paris...

Btw, I really am very common... I do not consider that any kind of insult. (Should I?)

Difficult - but today my list is as follows. It could be different tomorrow as it does tend to depend on my mood!
1. London
2. Berlin
3. Munich
4. Prague
5. Paris
6. Venice
7. Barcelona
8. Vienna
9. Amsterdam
10. Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Serious question. Would your list be the same if it were interesting places. For example, Iceland was extremely interesting but clearly not a favorite. Visiting Auschwitz was important,but could never be a favorite.

<u>Cities we've been to:</u>
Venice, Budapest, Vienna, Bern, Zurich, Barcelona, Paris, St. Petersburg, Moscow, Krakow. Will be in Nice soon, so we shall see about that one.

Of those my favorites in no particular order are: Paris, Budapest, Moscow, Vienna, Bern.

1) London!
2) Venice
3) Lucerne
4) Rye, UK
5) Bern
6) Prague
7) Florence
8) Krakow
9) Rome
10) Paris and many others I've yet to visit!

I had some free time on my hand so I tallied the votes.
Here are the results:
1-Paris
2-London
2-Venice
3-Barcelona
4-Berlin
5-Prague

That correlates, more or less with the most visited European countries.

Aramis, well written. I could agree with you but then of course both of us would be wrong.

Yawn, now they're listing the 'city' of Tuscany and the city of Iceland. Really?

Toucan has introduced a good idea (even if inadvertently). A list of cities for which it is necessary to also name the country. ie. Rye, UK.

If you have to name the country in order for anyone to know where you are talking about, it certainly can't be all that common a city for tourists to visit.

Paris, Ontario, Canada.
Berlin, New Hampshire, USA.
..........

1. Paris
2. Pienza as base for Tuscany
3. Florence
4. Sorrento/capri
5. Honfleur
5. Les andelys
6. Cinque terre. In1996 before it was regulated by government
7. Vienna
8. Salzburg
9. Beaune and surrounding countryside
10. Nice which includes St. Paul de Vence

I base this list on my own specific good time had in each location. But I could live a long time in Paris and love each day.

I inverted my cities so 10would be least and Paris #1

>>Improviser on Aug 3, 13 at 9:03pm

>>Aramis, well written. I could agree with you but then of course both of us would be wrong.

I expect that using the phrase about contemplating agreeing with someone but both then being wrong is one that you have often used as a substitute for assembling a logical counterpoint.

A somewhat wittier version of "I know you are, but what am I?"

centraleurope, as a visitor to Sofia I was unexpectedly charmed--same for Belgrade. Perhaps it was the beautiful autumn weather, the mix of cultures reflected in everything from architecture to the people to the food, or some combination of all of it. DH mentioned that he'll be returning again in the fall, so I am excited to start planning for my second visit.

The report of my brief trip is here should you need inspiration to visit. http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...s-in-sofia.cfm

I, too, ranked my 10 cities in descending order. Sorry.

I'm going back to the OP's question - what are "your" (reading my) favorite European cities. Some are on on lots of lists, some on no one else's but each makes me happy:

1. Amsterdam
2. Barcelona
3. Florence
4. Bergamo
5. Krakow
6. Glasgow
7. Bruges
8. Seville
9. St Andrews
10. Copenhagen

Oops - can I have 11? I'll add Budapest.

PalenQ thank you for being a fun and enthuiastic Fodorite who just suggested a fun topic. If others are not interested, move on! I want to thank you to all the Fodorites who have helped me and my family have even more wonderful trips than we could have accomplished on our own. I am not a regular but someone who visits when planning an elaborate trip in the next year. Our next trip is Europe so I was drawn in to your query. I am fascinated and appalled by the responses to many excited and novice people just seeking help with their first experience being shot down with snobbish disdain. Not to name names (Improvisor) but you are right that someone on this sight is truly challenged. Aramis, I applaud your statement about gateway cities, these are the biggest international airports and the most affordable, why wouldn't you spend time there. These cities are not the most popular because we are all sheep but because they have stood the test of time with their character, history and charm. I have been blessed to go to Rome and Paris 3 times, once as a college student, once as a newlywed and once with our 3 high schoolers. Each experience was fabulous and different. I would be happy to never go to either again until we knock off more of our bucket list, but if I get to go to either hand in in hand with a grandchild, I will do it in a second. As I get older the smaller villages have more appeal but I can only say that as someone who has already been to a lot of big cities. I think all of our favorites mirror our weather there, our health, who were were with and quicky unique experiences no one else will ever have. Many people in this world are embarking on their first time, I advise diving into the big favorites with some small town side trips. Many people know they will get to go once. Their bucket list is theirs, you do not get to "yawn." The rest of us are privileged to keep traveling and make it more off the beaten path. I cannot imagine not having gone to London, Paris and Rome if that was my one shot. We would love to go for 3 weeks every year to more specific areas but we don't have the budget or the time. Thank goodness we don't all have the same favorite places, wouldn't that be crowded and expensive!

Coral, very well put. A most thoughtful comment.

Four... Thanks. I will read your trip report... They are always excellent, so I am sure I will enjoy it.

Al, I think it would be very different if we looked at most interesting (and a great question). For example, I would add Prague as an interesting city even tho I do not particularly like it. Not sure what to make on the fact the favorites are the most commonly visited. Is that because people go to these cities because they are the "best"? Or they voted for them because they are the only places visited. Perhaps it is a mix.

Luke. You can add budapest. But I think you need to rethink Glasgow. Not sure you can be allowed to keep that one.

For me, I am an American who has lived and worked (not to mention vacationed) across Europe. But for me, it will always be Paris. The most visited? Common? Frankly, I don't care.

Now that the lecture portion of my response is done.... I am ready to play!
1. Ville Franche
2. Rome
3. Paris
4. Lisbon
5. Amsterdam
6. London
7. Lucerne
8. Cassis and the Calanques
9. Salzburg
10. Interlaken

Thanks for the original post and all the lists. I now have some new places to add to my list of places to visit in the future as well as those I am continually drawn back to.

So in return , here are my 10 cities/ towns/ villages ( based on factors like: have I been there more than once; in different seasons; would I like to live there for at least 6 months etc althought I confess not all factors apply to all locations but it helped me come up with a top 10)

1. Paris
2. Salzburg
3 . Venice.
4 . London
( which do meet all my criteria with multiple visits)
5. Zermatt( over other beautiful places in Switzerland as it is home to my favourite mountain)
6. Bath
7. Sarlat ( as a representative of all the beautiful medieval villages in the Dordogne - perhaps because it was where I stayed enabling a longer/ closer look)
8. St. Petersburg
9..Alesund ( as my starting point for exploring the beautiful Geiranger fjord region)
10. Santiago de Compostela ( never was I so glad to see a city having just completel 5 days on the Camino de Santiago- I know 115km is not as far as some people walk and it is a lovely city in its own right)

Liz

1. Paris
2. Amsterdam
3. Copenhagen
4. London
5. Barcelona
6. Bergen
7. Bruges
8. Albi
9. Bath
10. Bayeux

Oh, those snobby trolls on Fodor's. So unoriginal. All imitations. It's a kardashian world, so what else can we expect?

I haven't a common pore on my La Mer slathered skin, and I adore Paris, Venice, and Rome. In case one is blind, I'm a rare jewel who loves living in BIG.

I have my favorite small town charmers, for sure, but damn if I'm going to list those here. The last thing I want to do is invite a tacky troll to my party.

Yawn, no make that a double yawn.

Aramis, I said 'well written'. That was referring only to your writing skills, not the content. The content was primarily nonsense.

For example, you wrote:
" Improviser decided that the simple and fun focus of this thread presented an opportunity to criticize other people for "being common", "following the herd", doing "what the masses do", or simply for not getting out enough and experiencing enough places to participate in such a discussion. In so doing, he/she seeks to elevate him/herself from those common herded masses. What is especially interesting here is the attempt to subjugate common terms of language to the same end."

That's assumption from beginning to end. You have no idea what I 'decided' or what I intended in what I wrote. I did in fact state my intentions but you choose to ignore that. I have already had to admonish RM67 for presuming to know what my intentions were, now you too need to be admonished for the same thing.

I gave you a compliment on your writing skills and when doing so chose not to take you to task for your assumptions. In other words, I let you off with a simple, 'we would both be wrong'.

Now you return and AGAIN presume to know something you have no way of knowing. You write: "I expect that using the phrase about contemplating agreeing with someone but both then being wrong is one that you have often used as a substitute for assembling a logical counterpoint."

You 'expect' incorrectly Aremis. I meant the phrase to mean exactly what it said. I didn't agree with your content and if I did we would both be wrong. It is in fact a LOGICAL statement.

Coral22, while I understand you are happy being a typical tourist and see no need to change that, someone else reading might have a different opinion. You are free to disagree with me but you are not free to tell me whether I can 'yawn' or not.

How do you feel about my giving you this suggestion Coral22. Learn to write in paragraphs and leave an empty line between them.

I forgot Amsterdam. It is a city I love.

Though Copenhagen, perhaps considered a distant relative by some, left me ambivalent.

Fascinating.

Still no counterpoint except to state that no one can know what you are thinking ( or deciding, intending, whatever - I want to exclude you the need for you to take issue with the word I am using) and, therefore, any assumption a third party makes about you has to be incorrect.

Let's have some fun with how you create a world in which you can espouse theories you cannot defend and feel justified in doing so. I know, I know....I can't know what worlds you create, what you can or cannot defend, or whether or not you feel justified (thought I'd save you the trouble of raising these points in response). You wrote;

>>You 'expect' incorrectly Aremis (sic). I meant the phrase to mean exactly what it said. I didn't agree with your >>content and if I did we would both be wrong. It is in fact a LOGICAL statement.

This response might strike a chord in you - my expectation is mine, you cannot know what I expect or don't expect so you are incorrect in declaring my expectation incorrect.

I could go through your postings to date and find dozens of examples of you making precisely the kind of assumptions you attempt to assail. Let's start with three (not one, not two, but three!) more in just one sentence of this same post;

>>Coral22, while I understand you are happy being a typical tourist and see no need to change that....

1 You cannot understand anything about Coral22's;

1 state of happiness
2 self identification as a typical tourist
3 need to change either, or both, of no.s 1 and 2

Are you going to make it this easy?

Sorry fellas... The MENSA exam is in the next room.

This is merely us kids having fun and tossing out a few cities we like.

Nice, 1 to 10.

What is a kardashian?