America At The Crossroad
 

I watched a documentary on PBS last night, "America at the Crossroad". It painted a picture of a Europe that dislikes, even hates, America and Americans. Not just the administration, but the people, their appearance, their attitude, their culture, their morals, their intelligence, just about everything American. Very Disturbing!
I am interested in learning of the experiences of forum contributers in their recent contacts with the European people on your visits to Europe. I am not trying to create a debate on the pros and cons of American foreign policy, but to draw on your Europe experiences personally. I know that this forum has participants from Europe, and I would like to hear their point of view as well, I'm not interested in America bashing responses, but honest comments or criticism. I know our speech, our culture, our attitudes are different from yours, but I like and respect you for who and what you are (that's why we travel there, to learn and grow), please do the same for us.

Solaplex,

I'm a Scot who will be making my 6th trip to the USA in the next few weeks so I certainly don't have any innate dislike of America or Americans.

(Do you sense a "but" coming here?)

But...

One of things that gets my goat here on Fodors are posts that ask about the views & attitudes of "Europeans" to various issues.

You say that you know <i>&quot;our speech, our culture, our attitudes are different from yours&quot;</i> but the truth is that our speech, culture &amp; attitudes are different from each other. The concept of some sort of generic, consistent &quot;European&quot; attitude just doesn't hold water in my opinion (and I say that as someone whose instinct generally favours closer European political integration).

Or maybe I'm just being an old grump...:-)

Jim

Sorry, but I don't buy it. While it may be true that SOME Europeans don't like the US and/or Americans, I have traveled to Europe every year for the last several years and have never encountered any anti-American behavior.

In the 80's, there were demonstrations all over Europe against President Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. There are alot of differences between the US and Europe and sometimes these differences cause tensions.

No, Jim, you are right. There is a difference here. The food and the accent of the southeners is so different from us, yanks on the East Coast. Like Frane, England , Any country, stray from the capital and it's like being in a different country.

Everyone hates Americans, didn't that become obvious? But then everybody hates the French, Germans, British, Polish, whatever too! In fact everybody hates everybody. Don't you just hate yourself having to ask that question and being two days late? :D

You may be a grump, but you're right.

Ditto &quot;Americans&quot; -- there are all sorts. Some of us are very bad news indeed, but I've never had any trouble getting along with the various kinds of Euros I've met. It helps if you can see beyond yourself a little.

There are a few ground rules that you'd do well to observe -- like, never discuss soccer refereeing with an Italian. And &quot;we shore saved yer butts in dubya dubya too, hyuh&quot; lost whatever little charm (or accuracy) it ever possessed more than sixty years ago (i.e., before most utterers of it were born).

As for brutish politics, or ugly clothes, or general stupidity, more Europeans are well aware that they have plenty of examples on their own turf too.

A line from a song of years back...
&quot;And I don't like anybody very much.&quot;

Today we are the landlord, banker, and policeman. Most people only like them when they need them. Combine this with the arrogance, ineptitude, and lack of leadership, this adminsitration has created an untenable position for the average citizen.

To make matters worse, the US was in a unique postion in world history. We could have concentrated on hunger, disease, education, etc. Of course, there will always be bin Ladens but with a different agenda you do you create jihidists and you create allies among other countries to fight extremists.

When I travel abroad the first words in that language I learn is &quot;I did not vote for George Bush.&quot;

I watched this episode last night as well. I think such programs can be edited to show the most outrageous statements. For example, only showing the French schoolkids' drawings of the US that portrayed the US negatively or that one French woman who stated emphatically that the US was without doubt &quot;the most racist nation on earth... well, except for New York which is another country.&quot; (This from a woman whose capital city suburbs were aflame with rioters last summer.)

I was in Ireland and the UK this summer and found everyone to be entirely pleasant.

Overall, I did not get the sense that Europeans hate Americans from that documentary at all. Though I thought the children's paintings were quite astute. Yes, that one women was a bit overboard, but she was probably no different than if you were to ask a non informed American, with few drinks in them, what they think about the French. Honestly, I have never not been to treated with respect when I was abroad as long as I was giving the same in return. And I have visited France, in particular, my last four trips.

Is there a link where I can download the show from the internet? PBS is only sometimes broadcast via Eutelsat.

Reminds me of a story when someone asked a Frenchman &quot;Why do you hate us Americans?&quot; The Frenchman answered, &quot;Why shouldn't we, we hate each other, why shouldn't we hate you?&quot;

Most of the Italians in Italy that I know dislike the French, the Germans, the English. They like the Americans although they don't always like our leaders but then most of them do not like their leaders either.

I did not see the PBS program so I can't make any comment about it but if you want go over to the Lounge solaplex and you will be able to read a lot about this program.

Thank you all for responding, this is what I was hoping for; an open discussion from real people, not so called documentarians. Incidentally, I've been to Europe a few times, years ago, and have met very few people who were anti-American. Just wanted to see what the current attitude really is.

Solaplex
There were three threads running on this program, two in the lounge and one in this one. (Europe) One in the lounge is still going, but has gone completely off topic. I'm sure you can find the Europe thread and the other original lounge thread, if you are interested.

Things became a bit nuts, (count me among the the nuts) but it was an interesting discussion. I understand some of the posts were deleted, so they may seem a bit confusing.

You asked for people to draw on personal experiences. I have a few close friends in the UK, one in Paris, and a number of friends and acquaintances in various regions of Italy, and several who live part time here in New York. I could not say that &quot;most&quot; feel one way or another about this issue. The opinions vary, and discussions when they do occur, are usually on a specific topic, such as (from a friend in Verona) &quot;I can't understand how you live without a bidet! It's not clean!&quot; or in NY, &quot;Why do all of you drink coffee all day long, when your coffee tastes terrible?&quot; etc. On the rare occasions when I have had political discussions, I have been asked, &quot;If Americans don't like the war in Iraq, why did you keep Bush as President?&quot;
I also know a number if Italians who are here in NY to buy apartments, because of the exchange rate, so they don't hate it here all that much.
When traveling, I have observed groups of American tourists doing things that appear rude, even to another American, but the Europeans I know from different countries are generally friendly to American people.
When watching TV documentaries, I think it's important to remember that there is normally an underlying agenda when the show is produced, so I don't take everything at complete face value, because sometimes things come across in sweeping generalites.

Logos is right on. Europe is a still a bit angry at the US for treating Clinton so badly. We never understood why Monica became a national issue since there were more important things at hand. And we were shocked that GWB was elected TWICe and then was allowed to start a war he couldn't win.

Yup, we are frustrated with the land of the free when it comes to politics. Trying to understand the US is becoming a lost cause.

There is a light at the end of this dark tunnel though. Looks like a great amount of citizens are finally snapping out of their 9-11 shock and realizing their leader has taken them for a ride. There's hope that much better officials will be elected in the future.

someone posted:
&quot;Today we are the landlord, banker, and policeman.&quot;
Most of the dislike that some feel comes from this attitude.
The US is in fact none of these.
Landlords &amp; bankers aren't massively in hock to their neighbours. An international policeman would keep international law, not flout it.
Fortunately most Americans arent like this but too many still have this illusion.It gives an impression of arrogance.

So many great points! I especially like the one about American states being as different from one another as European countries.

My friends in California have nothing in common with the neocons and so-called religious right characters who voted in our current regime. As far as we're concerned, we'd gladly split the country and go off on our own (we're bringing in all the money anyway, so it could only help us). But I'm still holding out hope for the upcoming election.

Aduchamp1 - I found a universal way of saying &quot;I didn't vote for George Bush&quot;: &quot;George Bush - blech.&quot; I've made lots of non-English-speaking friends that way. :-)

Remember Tom Lehrer's &quot;National Brotherhood Week&quot;?

&quot;But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year! &quot;

What happens to individuals when they meet people from different cultures, and what happens in international politics, do not have a direct relationship with each other. &quot;Top dog&quot; countries are rarely popular precisely for that reason, and that's a factor of life to be expected. There is no reason to expect people either to like you or loathe you as an individual because of the strange misconceptions - or accurate perceptions - they may have about where you come from. Personally, it meant as little to me when people immediately started talking about Princess Diana as when they would say &quot;English? Bobbee Charl-ton!&quot;.

The interesting question here is why it seems to bother Americans so much.

Maybe it bothers some of us because some of the stereotypes have some truth to them? Many of us don't like our government or &quot;cultural gifts&quot; like McDonald's that we've given to the world. We also think our country is getting fat and that our education system is in the dumps. And we're mortified not just by Miss Teen South Carolina's answer to a simple question, but by the positive response she's received from America's youth and CNN.

It wears a person down to be constantly apologetic for a country of which you feel somewhat ashamed, yet still love and consider home.

&gt;&gt;&gt;And we're mortified not just by Miss Teen South Carolina's answer to a simple question, but by the positive response she's received from America's youth and CNN. &lt;&lt;&lt;

Sorry, but now I got curious. What kind of positive response?

&gt;&gt;&gt; It painted a picture of a Europe that dislikes, even hates, America and Americans. Not just the administration, but the people, their appearance, their attitude, their culture, their morals, their intelligence, just about everything American. Very Disturbing!&lt;&lt;&lt;

Solaplex, it was an American-made program, and they meant to it to be like that. Neutral or positive comments would not even have made to the program. If they had, the program would not have been what the people who made it wanted it to be.

Don't apologise, slangevar, what you or anyone else disapproves of about your country isn't your fault, any more than your average drunken Spurs fan or stag-party hooligan is mine.

No country is God's own country (not even Yorkshire). No country is perfect.

Hi S,

There are 253 posts at &quot;As Europeans see us&quot; on this topic http://fodors.com/forums/threadselec...p;tid=35056117

There are some posters who don't frequent the lounge, and this thread is much more focused thus far.

Patrick: - the yanks think a spurs fan follows some netball team from San Antonio.

It's best not to confuse them.

I tend to think of America in these very personal terms: Its like an annoying brother, whom you love to bits but hate occasionally; but always forgive! :-)

We are as annoying as residents of any other countries, however, due to our business and enterntainment culture invading the world, the average non-American has much more exposure to the American way. Therefore, it is easy to blame America, when one sees things in their country going down a route they don't like. For example, I am sure smokers hate America for the whole anti-smoking thing happening in Europe now.

hopefully my bad grammar and spelling in the above post is does not reflect badly on my country.

&gt;For example, I am sure smokers hate America for the whole anti-smoking thing happening in Europe now.&lt;

Heavens no. Most of us are quite grateful for that. It should have happened a long time ago.

But remember, it was every country's choice to become a non-smoking nation (in public places anyway). We did not feel any pressure from the USA to do this. It's just a sensible thing to do.

&gt;&gt;&gt; I am sure smokers hate America for the whole anti-smoking thing happening in Europe now.
&lt;&lt;&lt;

Sorry, what does America have to do with smoking bans in Europe? In how many states there is a smoking ban? California and New York, how many others?

For example where I live smoking was banned already 1993 everywhere else except reastaurants´smoking rooms. This year they finally removed the smoking rooms, too. Nothing to do with America. And I smoke, and I don´t hate the Ministry of Health.

don't know but I live in Europe and smokers always give me a hard time about stupid Americans banning everything. Perception and reality are often very different.

okay bad example then, but then again, you probably aren't one of the people that are pre-disposed to blame America for everything you don't like. Not everyone is like you.

zippo--Actually landlords and bankers are often &quot;in hock&quot; to others. They like to use other people's money to finance their lifestyles.

Sansman, where do you live in Europe? Being an American in Europe, I only feel the pressure (and it's huge) about Bush, Iraq, etc...

I don't really feel pressure, just general verbal jousting in a jocular way. However, I do have colleagues and the like who will make Anti American comments, not about Bush, usually about things they read in the media which often actually misrepresent the truth about America (similar to how our good press usually misrepresents Europe to fullfill the cliches).

&gt;In how many states there is a smoking ban?

Georgia, Maryland, Washington, Florida, Ohio, New York, Minnesota (first in 1975), Illinois,.... to name a few

&gt;&gt;&gt;(similar to how our good press usually misrepresents Europe to fullfill the cliches).&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well, that is exactly what was that program´s purpose.

I will gladly confess to loathing Bush and American foreign policy. I think you got it wrong big time, and it's seriously good to see there has been less talk recently about the &quot;axis of evil&quot;. I also loathed the witch MT (Margaret Thatcher for our younger readers!!).

I hope that doesn't spill over into antipathy towards Americans in general, but I get so mad sometimes, I suspect it does. After all, you elected him twice.

I'd like to share with you this snippet from an interview with Edward Norton:

&quot;A friend of mine had a film testing out in Burbank at a multiplex, and I was driving around looking for a place to park, and it was staggering, staggering - there was nothing but franchises. Starbucks, Radioshack, McDonalds. That is the entire reality. And it went on forever.

There were kids walking around, and I was thinking, 'Where do you get your identity from when it all becomes the same, when the textures are completely the same everywhere? How do you have any sense of yourself?'

That stuck a chord. He is right (and he's American). It's the control exerted by big finance; the corruption; the greed; the inanity of the mainstream media; the insularity of the mindset.

Look - wonderful literature, music and dance come out of America too. But ..

And we had better not mention global warming, eh?

So dear Americans, from the outside the US looks like a country that has lost its way. Where people who think have ceded control to people who obviously don't. Is it because the former are all too busy buying the latest gadgets?

Sad.

Back in the 60s the US was a country to watch and be inspired by.

What happened?

Thanks to Chimani for that thoughtful post.

I am in my early 60s, and grew up in post-war Britain amongst bombed-out streets, a severe housing shortage, and a country coming to terms with the demands for independence from its colonies.

The United States had finished the war with its industries and infrastructure intact. War was followed by a consumer boom. In Europe, we had a big rebuilding programme, and a manpower shortage. In those circumstances, the United States became the world leader, especially in technology. You had refrigerators, colour televisions and big cars. When we wanted to know what the future would be like, we looked to the United States.

As time passed, the technology gap closed. New inventions are round the world in a flash. We also realised that you had made mistakes. Suburban sprawl was not the best way of accommodating everyone, and the motor car should not be the only means of transport. You had social and crime problems that we wanted to avoid.

It has now reached the position where the United States is rarely seen as having the solutions we want to adopt. Our comparisons are now with other European countries, or those with similar cultures like Canada or New Zealand.

America has peaked. It was the country of the twentieth century, but will now decline relatively in the face of younger, more energetic superpowers like India and China. I suspect that the United States will find it as difficult to cope with relative decline as Britain has. It may be more difficult for you. The British have always had a self-deprecating streak, thinking their country less capable than others. Americans have been brought up to believe in their country's virtues, manifest destiny and the shining city on the hill. It will be hard to realise you are clay like the rest of us.